Return Home
It is currently Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:59 am

All times are UTC-06:00


Forum rules


Do not ask questions about the model of Reality here. Only discuss principles and practical applications.



Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5 68 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:35 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 383
Quote:
I don't find the other metaphors a problem once you know how each translates to the terminology of the other..
I wonder how you manage this translation of other models to MBT. A lot of them, for instance Frank Kepple's, insist that time does not exist and all events are simultaneous. One of the reason's I'm attracted to MBT is that I don't comprehend this "all things are simultaneous" idea. How can one thought, or event, be separated from another, how indeed can there be evolution and development, without sequence based on choices? Kepple says there is only "expanding consciousness", but to expand, there must be a smaller and a bigger: which takes time! It seems we need to make a choice: either time genuinely exists or it does not. What say you?


Last edited by vzam on Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:09 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 5691
Location: Ocala, FL
I think some of these people that say all time is simultaneous are picking up on the other data bases and are confused. They don't realize that in the PMRs time is only forward, but in the Past Actualized Database and the Past Unactualized Database that data may be experienced backwards and forwards. And that in the Probable Future Database the future is calculated by probability.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:49 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
In relation to MBT, time evolved (bubbled up, was "created" or "invented") within and by AUO as a necessary component of AUO's evolution. So, while time did not inherently exist as part of the original dim awareness, it was "invented" (in the evolutionary sense) by AUO as a necessary requirement of forward progress. Chapter 26 of MBT has a good discussion of the matter.

It would seem that the other various models and interpretations of the larger reality (such as Seth via Jan Roberts), might be tapping into the concept of the databases (as Sainbury pointed out) and/or referring to the concept (in their own interpretation) that time was "invented" (again, in the evolutionary sense) by AUO.

Was (is) there some form of "time" outside of AUO/AUM? Maybe. Maybe not.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:21 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 383
Thank you, Linda and Justin, for your input. I'm inclined to agree with you about the databases and the possibility of going back or forward. What surprises me about those who say "there is NO time" is that they never say how there can possibly be development or choices or new ideas without it. It's strange that they never try to explain that.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:09 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 850
Location: Colombia, South America
Who is Linda? In Spanish Linda means: Beautiful !


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:32 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 850
Location: Colombia, South America
We create time.
Zeno: Looking at the arrow prevents it from changing.
We can change the speed of time.
From our consciousness we create or not the "physical world" . Whether the world is physical or a projected hologram, it is important that we feel it as physical to believe it is real, take it seriously and act accordingly. This is the way real change occurs.
The tic of every second exists in our consciousness


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:25 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:59 am
Posts: 111
Location: Connecticut
Yes, but Einstein showed us that a moving clock runs slower than a stationary clock, even when there is no consciousness to observe it.
Still trying to understand that one!

Dave

_________________
The secret of dreams is that subject and object are the same, but you had to give names to everything, and make logos for bad ideas, and because of that you will have to learn to touch what you make.


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:14 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 102
Time is a tricky
Time is accurately described by Tom in MBT in a systemic view.
Its a consequence of the primordial C "morphing" into or creating the C or LCS?
(where did primordial come from anyway.. Tom must be influenced by Taoism)
Its a consequence of "state" change and the "first differentiation".. in short, change causes time
We as humans dont create "time" but our "concept of time" is relative and largely measured based on relative positioning of celestial bodies..
From the Absolute, there is no time..


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 7:16 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 383
Quote:
Who is Linda? In Spanish Linda means: Beautiful !
Linda Sainbury - yes, a beautiful soul.
Quote:
From the Absolute, there is no time..
Why say this? Is the Absolute equal to the Future, the end of history? If so, How does it know itself through us, when we don't know ourselves?

To use a metaphor, the Absolute views the whole of history as a Bayeaux Tapestry which It can see all at once...but wait! There was a time when the Tapestry didn't exist... And there was a time when the artists were embroidering it...And history is still being made, so the Tapestry is still being embroidered now...or, if the Absolute already knows what is going to happen, that means the future is determined and there are no free-will choices, or that the choices have already been made, and we are merely ciphers re-enacting them...sorry, I don't comprehend that. Can you help with a better metaphor than the Tapestry?


Last edited by vzam on Thu May 01, 2014 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:22 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:59 am
Posts: 111
Location: Connecticut
I have recently been thinking about time in terms of the old question "If a tree falls and nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound?"

It seems to me the answer is no, it does not make a sound. It only makes compression waves in the air. So if no one, or no organism, is there to translate those wave into sound, then there is no sound.
By extension it would also seem true that all of our PMR can be thought of that way.... if there is no consciousness to observe it, can it be said to exist at all?
I would say no, just as in the tree example, our PMR cannot be said to exist if there is no consciousness to observe it.
Which makes one question the validity of human thinking about ancient geologic history... can it be said to have existed, or was there some other form of consciousness present at that time, umpteen million years ago?

All of which leads me to the conclusion that consciousness and our PMR are inextricably entwined, and it is not possible to conceive of our world/universe/PMR existing prior to consciousness.
Sorry if this is all obvious stuff. Just some rambling thoughts.... no doubt already explained somewhere in MBT.

Dave

_________________
The secret of dreams is that subject and object are the same, but you had to give names to everything, and make logos for bad ideas, and because of that you will have to learn to touch what you make.


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:27 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
This has indeed all been explained before and is at the core of what Tom teaches as the MBT model of Reality.

The tree makes no noise in the absence of a conscious 'observer' as it otherwise exists only in probability, not actuality in some kind of material way. The presence of the tree and the sound that it makes occurs only within the data stream coming to an IUOC and providing the experience of PMR of that IUOC. No observer, no sound, no air molecules to vibrate to make that sound. Just probability until actualized by the observance of a participating IUOC.

Consciousness is most certainly intertwined with the existence and nature of PMR as PMR is sourced in and maintained by Consciousness. That Consciousness is the LCS or AUM, at its present state of development.

Time exists only within our perceptions within a VR. Outside of a VR, time exists rather as changes of system state, although we do express it as time or delta t. The LCS can be modeled as a vast Cellular Automaton and the state changes occur vastly many per perceived time passage within a VR. This is the 'tapestry' that vzam referred to. Many more delta t's for NPMRs than for PMRs, although the perception of time within each VR is roughly on the same order subjectively.

Yes, you could say that time does not exist, that everything exists 'now' as within the LCS, the basis for everything and where everything is recorded as the past actualized and unactualized data bases and the future probable data base has a continuous existence and is all accessible, past, present and future, all existing simultaneously in this sense. But within a VR, time is one way and continuously moving. That does not mean however that our perception of the passage of time cannot include either speeding up or slowing down and even stopping or being suspended as we, as IUOCs, exist within the LCS and can thus view/experience time from all of these perspectives.

Yes, PMR (any PMR or NPMR) is inextricably linked to Consciousness. It, all VRs, is the product of Consciousness/AUM/the LCS. Until The One Consciousness came into being, there was no basis for the VRs to exist. The VRs were created for the benefit of the IUOCs and The One Consciousness as their existence is inextricably interwoven. The One Consciousness exists because the (proto) IUOCs came into existence and from them and their interactions, The One Consciousness developed. The One Consciousness then created the VRs and the proto-IUOCs became functional IUOCs as they experienced themselves within the VRs.

Let me know if I missed anything significant.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:06 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:59 am
Posts: 111
Location: Connecticut
Ted,

Thanks for your reply.

So when we "look back in time" at the earth as we think of it as existing before the pre-Cambrian, would the MBT model also describe that period as existing in the actualized data base, even though there were presumably no organisms to make an observation?
Or does the pre-Cambrian continue to exist as a probability?

Dave

_________________
The secret of dreams is that subject and object are the same, but you had to give names to everything, and make logos for bad ideas, and because of that you will have to learn to touch what you make.


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:37 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Dave,

Looking quickly, I get the impression that Precambrian life amounted to bacteria and 'soft bodied' forms without boney structure or exoskeletons so little fossil record. Still there was life and fossil records which would seem to have the characteristics that Tom would consider as required and having a primitive decision space and therefore provide 'exercise' for an IUOC of suitable capability. This is nothing that I have ever studied, regarding paleo biology or however properly identified.

Every aspect of a VR is at base, probabilistic in its generation. It is only rendered as otherwise when it must be presented to an IUOC to represent the experience of that IUOC within that VR. Once rendered, it enters the data bases and is maintained until lack of continuity of 'observation' makes it simpler to drop back into probability rather than memory to supply a new rendering to meet the requirements of an IUOC for data. Finding a fossil in a VR does not mean that an entity lived and died in that 'physical location'. It might be buried and unobserved for millions of years and so dropping back into probability. The probability that there was such life in that location is recorded and so the fossil record gets created ad hoc to provide the new observations of science. But if you find such a fossil and then rebury it in the same location and then set up a means to assure that someone will come back at intervals and check for its existence, it will be found as this intermittent observation will force it to be maintained in the data base record with only those further changes as are probable with changing conditions and passage of time.

I hope I am stating this clearly enough. While it is correct under Tom's model, it may not be clear or complete enough.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:42 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 383
Great replies, Ted.

Dave - interesting thought! As we have a PMR of cause and effect, the past could be computed just as well as the future, based on the ruleset (until FWAUs turn up to interfere). But I favour the idea that the pre-Cambrian was actually viewed by a sentient Martian ;-)


Top
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:57 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:17 am
Posts: 50
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Ted,

There could be another, IMHO simpler in essence yet complex in final impact definition/perception/conceptualization of time than you gave that's different but not in contradiction to what you wrote.

Time is linear stream of quantized delta t's in the realm of single frame of reference that spans over portion (or whole) consciousness fractal (set of reality cells if you like). Each frame has independent delta t counter/stream of time that may "tick" at different frequency. Because frames can consist from / contain other frames, there could be complex systems including time hierarchies (clocks within clocks). Different time clocks in different frames would naturally require some sort of accommodation in the form of direct synchronization or translation between context boundaries when interaction between "adjacent" frames should take place.

This concept of time corresponds AFAIK to what we see here in PMR, IMHO doesn't contradicts MBT, may even explain / play role in formation of boundaries in consciousness that created IUOCes, why AUM was developed, defines term "locality" in spaceless reality, how Intent loop works and at the same time postulates that things really do happen simultaneously (as there are many frames of reference).

Enjoy :-)


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 5 68 Next

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited