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 Post subject: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:26 am 
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Would I be right in saying most, if not all, beliefs and fears are learned in this VR.
Either from tv, people, what we read and witness etc etc.

Our ability to " travell " NPMR is hampered by belief/fear/ego.

When one loses belief/fear/ego and evolves quality of consciousness, then exploring NPMR would become easy.

A theoretical scenario.... say a group of people ( low entropy people ) had a baby from birth. Then this group raised the child, shielding it from outside influence ie news, media, tv and books etc.
This group taught the child in the correct way so it grew up without fear, belief , ego. They teach the child that exploring NPMR is easy.

Would the child grow up with exeptional abilities to travell NPMR as it would not be hampered by fears/beliefs/ego
Even if the child had a low quality of consciousness coming into this VR ? Or would the quality of consciousness be the overiding factor ?

John


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:19 pm 
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Hi Turbo,
Quote:
Would I be right in saying most, if not all, beliefs and fears are learned in this VR.
Either from tv, people, what we read and witness etc etc.
All IUOC's no matter what reality frame they are functioning from/focused on, are struggling with Fear.

Our job, the job of all IUOC's is to transmute random data, the humanistic term for which is Fear, to usable energy, the humanistic term for which is Love.

Each time we transmute a fear, it is notched up, so to speak and reflected in our personal Quality Of Consciousness which has a knock on effect in the system at large.

We can and do have fears which are a hold over from past lives..we can and do develop more fears and beliefs during any given life experience packet
Quote:
Our ability to " travell " NPMR is hampered by belief/fear/ego.
This is true however it is also true that our ability to 'travel' or interact in PMR is also hampered by Fear, Ego, Belief and Expectation.
Quote:
When one loses belief/fear/ego and evolves quality of consciousness, then exploring NPMR would become easy.
Yes, relationships in any data stream would become much easier without the filters of Fear, Ego, Belief and Expectation.
Quote:
A theoretical scenario.... say a group of people ( low entropy people ) had a baby from birth. Then this group raised the child, shielding it from outside influence ie news, media, tv and books etc.
This group taught the child in the correct way so it grew up without fear, belief , ego.
They teach the child that exploring NPMR is easy.
It is not really a matter of teaching a child to grow up with out Fear, Ego, Belief and Expectation. It is more like giving an IUOC as much love as you can muster so that it can grow, according to its own decision making space, QOC and life plan.

You may be higher QOC parents who have been given a lower QOC IUOC child to help you to become more compassionate...there are many variables.
Quote:
Would the child grow up with exeptional abilities to travell NPMR as it would not be hampered by fears/beliefs/ego
Not necessarily...it may be that the child is blocked from NPMR by the system because its QOC is too low, too Fear filled and it is not ready to access NPMR.

It could also be the case that the child/IUOC has no interest in accessing NPMR...
Quote:
Even if the child had a low quality of consciousness coming into this VR ? Or would the quality of consciousness be the overiding factor ?
QOC is the overriding factor...

there are so many scenarios...an IUOC can petition her or his guides about accessing NPMR to the point of distraction so that that they cave in and give her/him a glimpse...that glimpse has to be translated into usable data by the IUOC in question...if the QOC is low and full of Fear, how would this data be valuable...and by value, I mean, how would the data gathered help the IUOC to make better choices?

High QOC parents can help an IUOC who is ready to learn for sure, but the IUOC still has to make the choice to capitalise on the QOC the parents by chosing to grow/evolve, sit on the fence or devolve...

Daghda

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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:13 am 
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Thanks Daghda

What exactly can be called a fear ?

I have been thinking about fears I may have. Can a fear be something that you just dont like and avoid, not scared of but embarrassed by ?

I dont like being centre of attention and I avoid putting myself in situations where I might be. I would not sing at a karaoke or give a speech in public, I cringe thinking about it. Its not a fear as in scared, more embarrassing and feeling
Daft, I just aren't comfortable in social situations. . Could this be classed as a " fear " caused by ego ? Ive always put it down to my personality rather than fear.

Or does Tom meam major fears, is the above a fear, a trivial fear or not a fear.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:09 am 
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John,

It would be very worthwhile for you to take the personality type tests that are available for free on some Internet web sites while some others charge for them. It might very well tell you a lot about fundamental things about yourself that you might not have really noticed. Tom introduced this on the board and said that he is an INTP. There is a book that I recommend also as what I think is the most advanced and complete description of these 16 fundamental personality types. In that book, if you read about the INTP personality type, the Rational Architect (of systems), you would think that it was written with Tom Campbell as the model for the type, complete to the statement to be open minded but skeptical. When I tested as INFJ, an Idealist Counselor, I found a description of things that I had been doing all of my life. That book is by Dr. David Keirsey and called Please Understand Me II as it is his revised second version. Dr. Keirsey's site charges for the full test, but there is a copy in his book but without the automation and scoring for you that you can find on the Internet.

I don't know enough about you to guess your type, but what you describe makes me think that it is likely characteristic of whatever your type is.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:38 am 
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I did a test on here which is free, and I think is the same as you mean..http://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test

I came out as INTP-T

It gives a detailed description about INTP which sounds right, dunno what the -T is though, I will do some investigating.


John


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:34 am 
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From my understanding, the Thinking/Feeling part of the test relates to how you approach information or situations and make decisions. Do you tend to break things down, reduce it into understandable parts, maintain distance and objectivity, think about pros and cons, look for correct or incorrect answers, and logically analyze things? Or are you softer in your approach, being especially more human-centered, accepting "softer" data such as human emotion and perspectives, accepting that some truths are subjective. Thinkers may be more prone to look for correct vs. incorrect, whereas Feelers are looking for preferred (good) vs. unpreferred (bad).
Quote:
I dont like being centre of attention and I avoid putting myself in situations where I might be. I would not sing at a karaoke or give a speech in public, I cringe thinking about it. Its not a fear as in scared, more embarrassing and feeling
Daft, I just aren't comfortable in social situations. . Could this be classed as a " fear " caused by ego ? Ive always put it down to my personality rather than fear.
As Ted suggested, this may simply be a result of you being naturally introverted. There is a difference between introversion and shyness. People who are introverted do not seek out social stimulation--that doesn't mean they don't have friends, but prefer small social groups, and naturally prefer situations of low socializing to situations where they will be required to speak and interact with lots of people. On the other hand, shyness is an actual fear of interaction, where people can be paralyzed or incapable of interaction with others. We live in a society (especially in the United States) where introverts are judged to be disfunctional and weird, and this can unfortunately make an introverted person shy.

In fact, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be by oneself, or read a book during lunch instead of talk with coworkers, sit at a party with the same couple people the whole night, listen much more than you talk, or want the time to get your thoughts together instead of speaking on the fly. Introversion is completely natural and not something to change about yourself. Shyness, however, is a fear, and like any fear, it can be overcome with practice, time, attention, and sometimes therapy.

Next time you are in a situation where you feel the way you describe above, try and watch your mind, thoughts, and body without trying to change anything. Is your reaction coming from a place like, "I don't want to appear foolish with all these people looking at me. I don't want to be judged. I don't want to say the wrong thing." If so, you may be dealing with a fear, and you've taken the first steps towards overcoming that fear: being aware of the fear. If you don't feel some anxiety is coming from a fearful place, but instead just feel like you are acting against a natural inclination, it may just be your natural preference exerting itself.

Consider watching the following video:

Susan Cain - The Power of Introverts

She has a introversion/extroversion quiz: http://www.thepowerofintroverts.com/abo ... introvert/
And a book

_________________
Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:29 am 
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Quote:
Thanks Daghda

What exactly can be called a fear ?

I have been thinking about fears I may have. Can a fear be something that you just dont like and avoid, not scared of but embarrassed by ?

I dont like being centre of attention and I avoid putting myself in situations where I might be. I would not sing at a karaoke or give a speech in public, I cringe thinking about it. Its not a fear as in scared, more embarrassing and feeling
Daft, I just aren't comfortable in social situations. . Could this be classed as a " fear " caused by ego ? Ive always put it down to my personality rather than fear.

Or does Tom meam major fears, is the above a fear, a trivial fear or not a fear.

John
Hi John,

If you are embarrassed by something that means you are stressed out by the words or deeds of yourself or others. Often our own personal thoughts also can make us feel embarrassed/stressed.

Stress is created by the inability to deal with an experience which is fundamentally, incoming data or input.

Inability to deal with input no matter what that input is, is more often than not down to ignorance and it is ignorance generates fear.

The word ignorance (lack of knowledge or understanding) is interesting because it seems to have become synonymous with stupid (lack of understanding or common sense), which of course has a completely different meaning.

Often people do not want to admit ignorance because they are afraid of being perceived as ill informed at best or stupid at worst and these feelings cause fear to rise.

Ignorance is lies at the root of fear.

Fear = high entropy.

As soon as you cannot calculate all the possibilities, as soon as you start being unable to live with the uncertainty of anything at all, oops, fear rises.

That is why having the courage to learn to live gracefully with uncertainty is so cool.

It allows you to say, in any situation at all, "hey, I don't know, I do not know what you are talking about, could you please explain that to me..." often it is just a matter of you or the person or persons you are communicating with switching out the metaphors...but again, people are afraid to put themselves on the firing line and admit ignorance in case....in case of what? In case they look stupid!

If you try the 'coming clean method' and admit ignorance to something, often you will find that the other party or parties are also ignorant, and they used a whole load of words, stringing sentences together that maybe sound good but do not really mean anything, to blind you with verbiage in order to veil their own ignorance from you!

And, you do not need to poke a dog with a stick and expose the ignorance of others in an over dramatic way or in a mean way. It is easier, because it cuts through any tension, to be light hearted when pointing out your percieved flaws in the outpourings of others...you can have fun for all, without your own ego rising up and being rude or hurtful...you do not have to punish someone for hiding their ignorance, this would be you, basing your own response to their ignorance in fear.

Using the power of assertion and humiliation to gain control of a conversation or situation would be a fearful response...humility in the face of ignorance (yours or anyone else's) helps breed compassion.

Here are a few words from Tom Campbell about fear.

This is an extract from the famous 'fear and ego aside', MBT Book 2, Section 3, Chapter 42, which is entitled ' Does the Big Dude Have Feelings or a Personality? What Does Love Have to Do With Consciousness?

"Fear resides in the intent or motivation, not in the action.

For example, purposely avoiding trouble may be an act of good judgement and not necessarily an act motivated by fear.

Fear, as a product of intent, represents a state or condition of consciousness.

Fear is like mind-cancer; it is a disease of consciousness, a dysfunctional condition of ignorance trapped within a little picture.

Fear is expressed by a high entropy intent driving action that reflects neither understanding nor vision.

Like a biological cancer, fear is debilitating and destructive of the system in which it grows." end of quote

Daghda

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Love is the answer!


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:51 am 
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Thanks for the answers.

As I have got older ( now 41 ) it has got better, and probably more so since MBT.

Some of my dads side of the family are also like this, my uncle is so bad he lives like a hermit with almost no contact with outside world. Its even prevented him having a family of his own.

Im no way as bad as him but I would still rather avoid it if possible. I have 5 brothers who are quite simiular thinking to me also ( not wanting to be centre of attention ).

If im at a party or a get together or a function and someone is going out of there way to be center of attention, I actually cringe for them, even though I have no involvement its strange.

Is enjoying/craving the center of attention ego ? A fear of being unnoticed ?

I am quite happy and prefer to go along unnoticed and blend in, but like you say deep down its a
fear. It will be a hard fear to rid myself of as its been lifelong.


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:18 pm 
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Quote:
Is enjoying/craving the center of attention ego ? A fear of being unnoticed ?
It might be, but not necessarily. Just as the introvert is inclined to seek solitude or low-key socialization, the extravert is inclined to seek intense social stimulation and engagement with others. On the other hand, just as an introvert's shyness may in fact be a fear, so the extravert's need for attention (especially if it is a craving) may also be a fear: a fear of being unnoticed, a fear of inadequacy, a personal insecurity that seeks external approval, etc.

Many people actually like it when someone is willing to be the center of attention: someone to tell stories, to dance and sing, to go out of his way to introduce himself and introduce others. And if you read the personality profile for the ESFP, it says "Whether on the job, with friends, or with their families, Performers are exciting and full of fun, and their great social interest lies in stimulating those around them to take a break from work and worry, to lighten up and enjoy life." There is no ego or fear there.

People must be free to follow their inclinations, doing what they feel they need to do to be fulfilled instead of resisting it, and in this way they are likelier to decrease their personal entropy and the entropy in their social interactions. One of the things I have tried to understand from reading Keirsey's book is that the way that people process reality, and the ends that they work towards, may be so different from me as to be incomprehensible, but it is their reality and their experience and I must be open to the fact that what I see as "wrong" is right to them.

Consider this quotation:
Quote:
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:20 am 
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Quote:
if im at a party or a get together or a function and someone is going out of there way to be center of attention, I actually cringe for them, even though I have no involvement its strange.

Is enjoying/craving the center of attention ego ? A fear of being unnoticed ?

I am quite happy and prefer to go along unnoticed and blend in, but like you say deep down its a
fear. It will be a hard fear to rid myself of as its been lifelong.
Certainly cringing over the acts of others is a fearful/egoic response but performer types tend, generally speaking to be more thick skinned...and what would we do without performers they bring entertainment and enjoyment to the world however, sometimes if you are an introverted type you simply do not respond well to certain types who love to entertain...and of course we do not all share the same humour...

In my youth, I am 58, I made myself go to parties and social gatherings because I thought I ought to and on top of that I was so interested in people...but the truth is I was always much happier with a book and was never bothered about being alone...I took this too far at one point and became a complete recluse.. Tom said somewhere in MBT that it was all about being in, not dropping out which made total sense to me so, over time I started to get back into being around people...you just find groups that you have something in common with...groups that suit your personality type.

In my own family we have a couple of chaps who are extremely reclusive and in their dotage (their 80's) they are almost anti human!!!

And, its no way to be...they have little or no social skills and on the rare occasion that they come to family gatherings they have no idea at all how to behave so often, they become either aggressive and start on their 'how rotten people are moan' or alternately become silent and sit in the corner nursing a drink by themselves, actions which are both at the opposite ends of the ego scale.

Changing ingrained patterns is about baby steps...teeny weeny ones.

As you say, it is difficult to change old thinking habits but certainly not impossible if you go about it slowly...

Its about baby steps and repetition.

Baby steps so that you don't overwhelm yourself and repetition so the new behavioural pattern sticks...

Daghda

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 Post subject: Re: Belief and fear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:51 am 
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To follow up what Daghda has posted, this is from an interview that Tom did.

CZ: And some of those fears are very easy to get rid of while some of them are hard to indeed.

Tom: Yes that is true. We don't know most of the fears and beliefs that we have. We don't realize they’re fears and beliefs because they have been with us for so long that we just accept them as a part of the way things are. We think everybody probably has the fears and beliefs that we have. And some of them you just get from your culture. You get cultural beliefs about the nature of reality. It's just what most of the people in your culture think about it; and you just picked that up; and you tend to think that way too. It's not like somebody sat down and said, “Here's what you need to believe. This is the right answer.”

A lot of these beliefs just ooze in without you ever knowing that they’re there. And I've had any number of people, particularly young males, will sometime say, “Well I don't have any fear, and I don't have any beliefs. But, I'm still having trouble seeing the bigger picture.” And if I can convince them to try to look at anything in their life that is negative, or causes anxiety, or doesn't feel good, (or whatever,) something that worries you, or is a problem - and try to find the fear. And always a month or two will go by and if I get back in touch with them I’ll hear something like, “I didn't realize how many fears and how many beliefs that I have.” And then a couple months after that it's almost depression in that, “Everything I do is pushed by ego,” whose origin is in fear, “Everything I do is pushed by ego and belief.” So fear and belief turnout the be the major motivators, the major things that kind of nudge them to make the choices; say the things; and do the things; and feel the way they do. And that's a big revelation because from their intellectual view it’s, “I'm fine. I don't really have any fear. And I don't have any ego. I don’t have any beliefs. I'm just open.”

That’s the way their intellect tells the story because the intellect’s trying to make you feel good; trying to make you cover those fears so the fears don't exist. So that's where the intellect gets in the way. But most people make most of their decisions and most of their choices based on their fears and on their beliefs. And that's just life; that's just the way it is, and often that's what's your culture expects of you. If you don't do that, if you don't have certain beliefs that are accepted in your culture, then there's something wrong with you; there's a problem; you're an outsider; you don't belong; you no longer conform to the social beliefs.

So it's not an easy thing to do. The hardest part is finding them, finding that fear and those beliefs, and that's step number one - and that's probably the hardest thing. Once you find them if you really want to get over them it's just a matter of time - and it’s not quick. You usually don't find the fear and it’s gone the next day. You may have to work at it for months or maybe even years if it's a tough one. But you can get rid of any of them if you really want to. It's just a matter of catching yourself whenever you're having that reaction that's ego based (which is the same as fear based or belief based,) you catch it and you say, “Oh, that's not the way I want to go here.” And you change it. And eventually you don't catch yourself as often and eventually don't catch yourself at all because you stop doing that.

But it takes time, and the way you start is just to observe your own consciousness, observe your own choices you make, the way you feel, the way you interact. When you saw that twenty dollar bill what did you think about? Did you look around to see who's watching; whether or not it would be a good idea to put in your pocket? Could you get away with that? You know if that was your first (response) then that tells you that there's a problem there. So you have to trace that back. And that'll go back to a fear of some sort. A fear of not having enough; a fear of other people taking what you've got; or that you're found wanting of your ability to gather resources (or something.)

So it’s not an easy thing to do - to beat your fears. But if you really want to do it - just start. And you’ll start with one and you’ll find one thing and you'll kind of feel like, “Well that's the only one. I found one.” And then you work on that and then pretty soon a couple more will pop up. Don't get overwhelmed. Realize that we tend to be very fearful people and it'll take some time to work through all that stuff. But you will start feeling better; your life will start getting better; your interactions with other people start getting better. And everything from your personal life, to your career, things will start working better as you get rid of those fears; because they are the problems that create issues and problems for us. So there's an immediate reward too so that people do get a sense of it's worth doing.

CZ: So a good plan then would to be to start with a small fears and then begin with the harder ones later on?

Tom: Sure that's a good thing. Just start, just feel - be aware of your feelings. And as soon as you get a feeling that is not joy; and it's not happiness; and it's not wonderful; it’s, “Uhh, That’s not so good. I didn’t like that.” or, “I wish that wouldn’t have happen that way,” (you’re having these kinds of things) - start to inspect them. Try to trace them back, and if you do that for probably even just a few days, you'll probably unearth at least one fear somewhere. And then you just need to keep working on that until you get rid of it.
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