A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

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jakub
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A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by jakub »

Hello,

I've decided to put this question here since I love everything about MBT.
I'm curious about personality theories in the context of MBT and I thought Ted Vollers did great work in publishing his paper "IUOCs and the Origin of Personality Types" where he basically states that our personality type is tied to our IUOC and we're going to display the same characteristics in NPMR and other reality frames.

reference -> viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10336

In today's fireside chat Tom said that it's only our quality of consciousness that stays with us between lives and if we're going to display similiar characteristics then it's only because of that.

reference (first question) -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI8rIK0N0Xw

From what I've seen Ted noticed some holes in his own way of thinking, for example - why would you ever want to have sensory abilities over intuitive ones in non-physical reality frames? That really doesn't make much sense so Tom's answer about personality being tied to just the FWAU makes more sense, but then again I remember seeing documentaries about past lives where for example a woman visited her relatives from past life and they said she was exactly the same (can't find it right now), that would stand strong by Ted's point of view, also the fact that personality type is non-inheritant.

Anyone willing to provide some more context/opinions into this?
Last edited by jakub on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Sainbury »

I don't think there is any disagreement between Ted and Tom. Both were interested in the 16 Personality Types in the personality studies of Dr. David Keirsey.
And those personality types could go from incarnation to incarnation.

And Tom and Ted also agreed that individual personalities of the characters FWAUs play do not go onto another incarnation.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by THEONE »

Am I glad a was born as a highly sensitive entity? Yes and no.

I think maybe some personality trait can be selected to incarnatecwith?

I believe normally you are your accumulated personality type unless certain past personality traits are selected before birth..

Maybe I am not normally this sensitive but this was selected because of my life plans..

Speak to your iuoc. Say; I will do better for us.. who ever you are..
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Jdjr »

In my view, Ted followed Tom's guidance and was loyal to all things MBT. That being said, Campbell gave him creative interpretation on the forum based on his own perception and perspective. Any apparent disagreement would default to Campbell's approval. Their subjective exploration experiences along with their quality of consciousness was different also.

A perfect example is the "forum's" decision to combine the operations of the OVERSOUL and the IUOC into one consciousness unit called the IUOC. This was met with Campbell's approval.
From what I've seen Ted noticed some holes in [Tom's]his way of thinking, for example - why would you ever want to have sensory abilities over intuitive ones in non-physical reality frames? That really doesn't make much sense so Tom's answer about personality being tied to just the FWAU makes more sense,
The FWAU is a fragment, piece, component (or any similar metaphor) or in other words, it is made in the image of the (OVERSOUL) IUOC. This VR is a sense data stream. The senses are a tool to enliven the experience of an objective reality. Intuition is fundamental to the quality of consciousness.
but then again I remember seeing documentaries about past lives where for example a woman visited her relatives from past life and they said she was exactly the same (can't find it right now), that would stand strong by Ted's point of view, also the fact that personality type is non-inheritant.
There are many documented accounts of this happening.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by jakub »

Speak to your iuoc. Say; I will do better for us.. who ever you are..
You do indeed sound like an INFP and most of them are said to be highly-sensitive. This is also what I'm trying to figure out - how stuck are we with what we are (I'm not saying it would necessarily be a bad thing).
Intuition is fundamental to the quality of consciousness.
I don't think that's true, we have 75% of society with preference for Sensory cognitive functions over Intuitive ones and like Ted addressed in his work this is solely due to what's needed in higher amounts. So you can tell that Tom is very intuitive but his type is INTP which basically is a type designed to make sense of all the abstract information he has.

To me quality of consciousness seems to be just an ability to make better choices (for everyone), it doesn't seem to be connected to cognition whatsoever. You can't deny the fact that we have many very intelligent people (also intuitive) who have a low quality. And even the highly-sensitive, very empathetic ones can end up as drug-addicts, self-harmers etc. It's true though that by making better choices you're going to become more wholesome and intelligent person on average.
There are many documented accounts of this happening.
Thanks for giving some more confirmation on that.

I'm going to stay with that for now - that you do actually remain you personality from life to life, but it's still very hard to tell exactly how it goes.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Jdjr »

jakub wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:53 am I'm going to stay with that for now - that you do actually remain you personality from life to life, but it's still very hard to tell exactly how it goes.
This is not consistent with MBT. The IUOC chooses to incarnate to include a personality. The personality/AVATAR/FWAU operates within the constraints of this PMR. Upon the death (transition) of the avatar, as decided by the IUOC, the personality/FWAU is stored in the actualized past data base. The experience packet uploads to the IUOC. The IUOC goes through the life review. It decides to incarnate as another personality. During the transition stage, one can conclude that the previous personality's memory bleeds through to the new personality and then the memory of the former fades as it is stored in the actualized past data base.

We are the IUOC and the IUOC is us. This is why we can recall past lives. Each past life of the IUOC is the IUOC and the IUOC was them. Each past life had its own personality, free will choices and probabilistic draw.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Sainbury »

To me quality of consciousness seems to be just an ability to make better choices (for everyone), it doesn't seem to be connected to cognition whatsoever.
This post from Tom may be of some interest.

TOM: One of the most basic attributes of Consciousness is awareness: cognitive function -- the ability to think, consider, assess, and learn. Some of that cognitive function is considered to be intellect (processes information piece by piece), another part is considered to be intuitive (processes information as a gestalt). Both types of processing are valuable and when integrated together give a much more complete picture than either alone.

In people who have fear, this cognitive function appears to us to be twofold (though it is always one thing) 1) that part of the cognitive function that is highly contaminated by fear (ego, belief, expectation) and 2) that part that is not. Ego is defined as awareness in the service of fear. Belief and expectation are often products of ego and always products of fear. Because the great majority of people base the great majority of their choices on their fear, ego, and belief, we associate their intellect with fear, ego, and belief (unfairly calling it the intellectual level) and blame the resultant bad behavior on their intellect. The intellect is a valuable cognitive tool, it is the fear that is dysfunctional, that controls the tool. If someone's head is bashed in by a hammer, one does not blame the hammer for the murder and make a plan to get rid of all hammers. Hammers can be exceptionally useful if you have nails to drive. Though people are dominated by fear, they also, sometimes, use their intellect for positive things. One of the most valuable things (other than finding their lost car keys and glasses and remembering how to get home after work) they can use it for is to eventually, after much experience, realize that fear is the enemy, that ego and belief is ruining their lives, and then further use their intellect to come up with a strategy to get rid of the fear, grow up, and become love. And then use their intellect to implement that strategy. Indeed, this is how most people do grow up in our intellect-dominant culture. Fear is the problem and that fear is expressed by our intellect, however, our intellect is also likely to be a large part of our solution.

When the fear is gone, the intellect is dominated by love, caring, compassion, and kindness and there is no distinction between being level and intellectual level. One's awareness is whole with the intellect and intuitive processes fully integrated and working together as one.

The same story applies to the intuitive side of the cognitive function. When it is driven by (in the service of) fear, it is dysfunctional -- when it is not, it is peace and love. However, in our intellect-dominated culture we hardly notice the intuitive side of cognition and justify all thoughts and feelings as being rational and having intellectual roots.

We associate intuitive cognition with the being level -- a level that just is, that does not have to justify itself as the intellect does -- thus, it isn't as noisy, unpredictable, and jumpy as the intellect. Although most people mainly have negative gestalts wadded up in their being level, they still can have many positive gestalts spread around as well because the being level does not demand consistency or rationality.

When one "works from the being level" one finds a quiet, positive, stable place from which to intend. The intellect has great power in its analytical assessments -- it is the director. The intuition has great power in the sharp focus of its deep, sureness of understanding -- it is the choir.

1) "Why in the world do you deal directly with this mess Tom? Do we not feed the intellect by dealing with it?"
Because that is the director, the tool that will one day direct most of us to eventually grow up. Many years ago that wasn't the case, but today and in the near future, we will be an intellectually driven species. Patience is required, evolution is a slow process.

2) "What purpose does the intellect actually have? Since it exist"

It is a necessary part of consciousnesses' cognitive function that processes millions of individual pieces of information looking for meaning and patterns.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11204&p=104139#p104139
The IUOC chooses to incarnate to include a personality.
I'm not sure it is a choice as much as the way the digital mind is arranged. This was something that Ted was very interested in with the 16 different personalities Myers-Briggs and Keirsey postulated. And Tom addressed this recently in the Fireside Chat June 2020 Part 3 during his answer to copying and pasting IOUCs in the first two questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TklpVnydCpA
Upon the death (transition) of the avatar, as decided by the IUOC, the personality/FWAU is stored in the actualized past data base.
I'm confused by what you mean by this. The avatar dies because of the ruleset of the PMR. And the data of the past life is stored in the Actualized Past Database.
The experience packet uploads to the IUOC.
The IUOC has access to all past lives information, and the entropy is uploaded in real time as each life is happening. So there is no download at the end of an experience packet.
The IUOC goes through the life review. It decides to incarnate as another personality.
The life review isn't a hard rule. Some IUOCs may go through portions of a past life, some may not do a review at all. And the IUOC portions off a part again to receive the PMR data stream.
During the transition stage, one can conclude that the previous personality's memory bleeds through to the new personality and then the memory of the former fades as it is stored in the actualized past data base.
As is mentioned above with the personality types, it isn't as much a bleed-through as just the way the digital mind is configured that makes the personality types consistent from experience packet to experience packet. The memory fades because the FWAU no longer gets the PMR data stream after that character dies.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

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The IUOC chooses to incarnate to include a personality.
I'm not sure it is a choice as much as the way the digital mind is arranged. This was something that Ted was very interested in with the 16 different personalities Myers-Briggs and Keirsey postulated. And Tom addressed this recently in the Fireside Chat June 2020 Part 3 during his answer to copying and pasting IOUCs in the first two questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TklpVnydCpA
It may be helpful if you read my post in response to jakub. Jakub has tentatively concluded that his personality will reincarnate: "I'm going to stay with that for now - that you do actually remain your personality from life to life, but it's still very hard to tell exactly how it goes."

As you know, that does not conform to MBT. The theory is that the IUOC/FWAU incarnates or logs on and plays with its accumulated experience and its accumulated personality. Once that experience packet merges with the IUOC it then can incarnate as a new personality.
Upon the death (transition) of the avatar, as decided by the IUOC, the personality/FWAU is stored in the actualized past data base.
I'm confused by what you mean by this. The avatar dies because of the ruleset of the PMR. And the data of the past life is stored in the Actualized Past Database.


I think the avatar's death is also a function of the probable draw and is pre-planned by the IUOC. I agree with the data storage.

The experience packet uploads to the IUOC.
The IUOC has access to all past lives information, and the entropy is uploaded in real time as each life is happening. So there is no download at the end of an experience packet.
I agree.
The IUOC goes through the life review. It decides to incarnate as another personality.
The life review isn't a hard rule. Some IUOCs may go through portions of a past life, some may not do a review at all. And the IUOC portions off a part again to receive the PMR data stream.
I agree.
During the transition stage, one can conclude that the previous personality's memory bleeds through to the new personality and then the memory of the former fades as it is stored in the actualized past data base.

As is mentioned above with the personality types, it isn't as much a bleed-through as just the way the digital mind is configured that makes the personality types consistent from experience packet to experience packet. The memory fades because the FWAU no longer gets the PMR data stream after that character dies.
Jakub discusses the objective evidence provided by the U of VA. A child of 5 remembers his past life. I am suggesting the past life bled through during the transition and during the new personality incarnation.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Shirshir718 »

jakub wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:53 am So you can tell that Tom is very intuitive but his type is INTP which basically is a type designed to make sense of all the abstract information he has.
Hi People!
I thought Tom would be an INTP as well!
Well I've tested myself multiple times and I am an INTJ.
My mum is an ISFJ and Dad is INTP that's how I ended up INTJ. So I'm 75% like dad and 25% like mum and mum could never understand dad and me.... so there you go.
What do you think your parents are?
Cheers,
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Sainbury »

It may be helpful if you read my post in response to jakub. Jakub has tentatively concluded that his personality will reincarnate: "I'm going to stay with that for now - that you do actually remain your personality from life to life, but it's still very hard to tell exactly how it goes." As you know, that does not conform to MBT. The theory is that the IUOC/FWAU incarnates or logs on and plays with its accumulated experience and its accumulated personality. Once that experience packet merges with the IUOC it then can incarnate as a new personality.
What gets confusing is personality type and character. The digital mind may be configured into a personality type. But the character that is played is new each experience packet. What is brought into each experience packet is the personality type and the entropy level. The experience packet is no more than data and is constantly uploaded in real time to the Actualized Past Database. And the entropy level of the experience packet, if it changes, is uploaded to the IUOC/LCS in real time. The FWAU re-orients, (merges,) with the IUOC after each experience packet is over. Are we saying the same thing?
I think the avatar's death is also a function of the probable draw and is pre-planned by the IUOC.
It would be an exception that the death of the character is pre-planned by the IUOC and not the norm. It is more just the result of the random draw from the ruleset of the PMR, or free will.
Jakub discusses the objective evidence provided by the U of VA. A child of 5 remembers his past life. I am suggesting the past life bled through during the transition and during the new personality incarnation.
I don't know how information from a past life would 'bleed through.' All that data is stored in the Actualized Past Database. It is more likely that the LCS included that past life data in the data stream of the 5-year-old as a nudge, to the people around her, to wake up to a larger reality.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

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What gets confusing is personality type and character. The digital mind may be configured into a personality type. But the character that is played is new each experience packet. What is brought into each experience packet is the personality type and the entropy level.
I agree. The IUOC logs on with it. The experience packet is empty at that stage.
The experience packet is no more than data and is constantly uploaded in real time to the Actualized Past Database. And the entropy level of the experience packet, if it changes, is uploaded to the IUOC/LCS in real time.
Here is Campbell on page 701 of MBT: Your totality is the sum of all your projected consciousness fragments that have exercised free will. Your primary consciousness energy, sometimes referred to as the OVERSOUL, where the results of your efforts are accumulated, remains consciousness in NPMRn. Generally here is how it works: The IUOC/OVERSOUL is a free will possessing sentient being. The person you identify with (FWAU) is a free will possessing sentient being. Data is transmitted between the beings with the OVERSOUL being the main personal data folder.
The FWAU re-orients, (merges,) with the IUOC after each experience packet is over. Are we saying the same thing?
Campbell page 701: your personal identity (FWAU) is a fragment of consciousness that has made all of the choices you have made in the interaction of people and objects. You persist as long as the OVERSOUL finds it useful or profitable (low entropy) past, present and future.
I think the avatar's death is also a function of the probable draw and is pre-planned by the IUOC.
It would be an exception that the death of the character is pre-planned by the IUOC and not the norm. It is more just the probable draw from the ruleset of the PMR.
Your recent Ted cite sums it up wherein he paraphrases Tom: 'anything is possible.'
Jakub discusses the objective evidence provided by the U of VA. A child of 5 remembers his past life. I am suggesting the past life bled through during the transition and during the new personality incarnation.
I don't know how information from a past life would 'bleed through.' All that data is stored in the Actualized Past Database. It is more likely that the LCS included that past life data in the data stream of the 5-year-old as a nudge, to the people around her, to wake up to a larger reality.
Anything is possible.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by VirtualBrain »

What about people with multiple personalities?
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

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VirtualBrain wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:43 pm What about people with multiple personalities?
Hi VB:

People with multiple personality disorders (MPD) which is now termed dissociative personality disorder (DID) is a psychiatric illness. Those unfortunately people usually suffered from child sexual or very violent abuse when they were very young. I think what might have happened is when they were being abused, the LCS stepped in with a NPC and took their place. That's why many child abuse victims say when they where being abused they felt like they were out of body and watching the violence going on. When they grow up, they sometimes don't remember the abuse taking place and it comes a suppressed memory. These are called memory gaps. But if you bring out the Alta (a particular character that was present during the abuse) he/she will remember the trauma. These altas are very one dimensional beings and they usually don't grow up or mature. It's a very interesting phenomenon, there are many videos on the condition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociat ... getfulness.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by VirtualBrain »

These altas are very one dimensional beings and they usually don't grow up or mature.
So they aren’t real personalities then. It is interesting.
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Re: A disagreement between Tom and Ted Vollers about personality

Post by Jdjr »

Here is Campbell in his 2nd iteration on belief: it occurs when you really want to know but do not have the facts. You believe you know. Disbelief is belief. Once belief is known, information in conflict is easily discounted.
Shirshir718 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:12 am I think what might have happened is when they were being abused, the LCS stepped in with a NPC and took their place.
"I think what might have happened is when they were being abused, the LCS [God]stepped in with a NPC and took their place."
That's why many child abuse victims say when they where being abused they felt like they were out of body and watching the violence going on.
According to Campbell an "out of body" is phasing out of a data stream into point consciousness. You then phase into another data stream and or shift focus in the same data stream. People who have NDE's, musicians in concert, soldiers in war, and on and on experience an "out of body". This also occurs during the death transition.

The subject vr avatar is loaded with the 5 senses as the actor. The FWAU is free of the 5 senses and emotion as the observer. During the death transition, your focus shifts and you "see" through metaphorical eyes of the FWAU. The "Alta" is referred to as a "splinter" in consciousness models. This splinter is created by the FWAU to move through certain elements of fear. The FWAU is the LCS and the LCS is the FWAU. There is no separation in consciousness.
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