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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:14 am 
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Hello everybody;

I have been following Tom Campbell's work for about a year. When I listened to the first YouTube video, I was instantly drawn to it, and have been on a mission to listen to everything he has put out there. I was trained as a mechanical engineer, so the development from a left brain point of view was exactly what I needed. I am also proud to say that I have been blessed to have a natural tendency of open-minded skepticism.

I am also married to a PhD physicist who teaches college physics and engineering physics. As far as I know, he is still an atheist. He religiously believes that consciousness is generated in the brain. He is sadly a prisoner of his left-brain, but otherwise he is a very fun-loving companion. We have been married for 30 years. We were both 21 when we were first married, and I feel like I have made much more progress in my quality of consciousness evolution than he has. I attribute this to be being inclined toward open-minded acceptance of ideas. He obviously has ego-identification with his profession, which limits him greatly unfortunately.

I have internalized MBT to the extent that viewing this existence as a virtual reality has really made me happier, more at peace, and has given me a sense of purpose. I do not talk about this with hardly anyone, except sometimes with my 25-year old son, who is quite open-minded, and we talk about virtual realities often, since he is a gamer.

Today, my son and I were just casually talking about a TV show called Planet Earth, and we just happened to swerve into the topic of consciousness. He started talking as if it was common knowledge that consciousness is developed in the brain. I responded back that that is not necessarily true. This triggered a response from my physicist husband who was sitting nearby. My husband said of course it is, there are mountains of scientific data that has made the connection of consciousness to the brain.

I politely countered with "show me the data"... which, looking back on, I should not have done, because, it escalated. Long story short, I tried to shut down the firestorm, but obviously this triggered his ego so severely that other issues came out that didn't even have anything to do with where consciousness is generated. His voice was raised, he was accusing me of being a conspiracy theorist, accused of only looking at scientific data that I agreed with, etc. I was desperately trying to back out and rewind the situation.

By the end of it, my voice was cracking with emotion, and this really surprised me. My being-level feelings were being hurt.

My question is: Was the emotional response I had during this interaction, a response driven by ego? Or fear? I think it might be, but not totally sure, since I was so surprised by it, and I feel I was sincerely trying to de-escalate the situation. I wonder if my near-crying was due to the fact that I was so sad that his data stream is so different than mine........

I am trying to take this as a learning experience. In the normal course of events, I DO NOT EVER bring up certain topics with my husband. This is one of them.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:36 am 
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Let me make a number of suggestions for you that might help you to understand the situation and might suggest ways to proceed. I am also a mechanical engineer and there is a possibility that you might find that you are not so 'left brained' as you think and that is all in your training, not in your nature. Tom Campbell long ago on the board introduced us to the 16 personality types studied in some way by many but specifically in the most advanced form by Dr. David Keirsey and written about in his book Please Understand Me II. You can find this on the Internet under these terms. His book is available as an eBook for ~$10 on the Internet and the test for your personality type is in the book or you can pay for the full results on his site and there is somewhere that you can find by search to take the same test with no charge, or at least there recently was. This concept goes back to Aristotle who wrote about the 4 main types (each with 4 sub types) called Artisans, Guardians (of society), Idealists (the true right brainers) and Rationals (the true left brainers). And by the way, the concept of left brain/right brain has been shown to not really be correct.

The reason I bring this up is that it can possibly be a way to gloss over the present kerfuffle with your family by attributing it to your being these different personality types. The reasoning is as follows. Tom introduced himself as being a Rational Architect (of systems, not houses) which under this system is known as an INTP (Introverted, iNtuitive, Thinking, Perception based thinking). I test as an Idealist Counselor (and frequently mystics) known as INFJ (Introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling, Judgemental). Tom Campbell created this elaborate theory of Consciousness while here I am counseling you, both true to form. You made this discovery which you looked up on the Internet and voila, a possible basis for resolution and self discovery. I suspect that you might find that your husband is a true to form Rational from what you say about him. You sound like you are an Idealist of some form or other and also your son. Not to say that none of you could be an Artisan or a Guardian. But the idea is as you would find in the book suggested that these 16 personality types each have their own characteristic ways of thinking and thus agreeing or disagreeing, the degree that they get locked into a particular pattern of though, or not, and their ways of getting along together and understanding each other, or not.

Do you see where this might be a useful tool and approach to reconciliation and rapprochement? No certainty as I do not know your actual types and can only guess. And you must still manage the negotiations to produce the desired result. But that's what engineers do, put things together to do useful things. And wives have been managing their husbands (and vice versa) to reconcile differences since there has been the custom of marriage. Where there is a will, there is a way. So that's suggestion one.

For number two, more information for you to look at which might show you more of and different complementary aspects of Tom Campbell's theory. Have you heard of Tom's Wiki and the write up of his model of Reality there: viewtopic.php?f=265&t=10393#p95781 You will find that the core of Tom's model goes back to ancient India as Indra's Net. I have sent you by this path so you will see that there is much more there and there are also links to other resources if you go up a level to the full Board forum containing these threads.

You might also take a look at my own site which I put up about the same time that Tom put up his and we thus 'found' each other. http://www.active-mysticism.com/ This will show you that there are many other sources and ways into this same basic understanding of Reality as I have been studying the same thing as Tom has from a different direction all my life, just as Tom has.

That's enough to dump on you for now. Consider the first suggestion as I think it is a real approach that might work by catching your husband's attention on a great 'left brain' explanation (and diversion) for the whole situation. Best of luck.

Oh, and not to forget your question. Tom considers ego and fear to be different sides of the same coin with ego a development to oppose fears. From your husband's point of view, this situation probably represented a primal fear arising that his wife of umpteen years together has suddenly turned into someone he does not really know or understand and attacked his whole world view, turning everything upside down. Suddenly he is defending every aspect of his life and the primary line of defense is ego.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:08 am 
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I know his reaction all too well, it usually comes from people who have their identity tied with being an "intellectual" and so then challenging their beliefs challenges their identity which invokes an emotional and hostile response. After all, he wasn't arguing to genuinely change your mind, he was arguing to reaffirm his intellectual identity and thus his emotional response led to the "escalation" with personal insults.
Quote:
Was the emotional response I had during this interaction, a response driven by ego? Or fear
I don't know exactly how the situation played out or what exactly triggered your emotional response but I would say your reaction wasn't optimal. Instead of taking his insults and arguing personally, you should have looked at the situation for what it was, understood why he was angry and attacking you and why he would probably regret it after he cooled down. Don't take anything personally, everything is temporary and everything is just a learning experience.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:47 am 
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Your husband must not be familiar with, or disagrees with the many articles being published by physicists about our reality being a virtual reality. Somewhere I have a list. I'll try and find it.

Tom's reply to proof:

If PEAR labs, with their historical association with Princeton University, can't get anything published in a mainstream science journal with a dozen highly credentialed PhDs using expensive laboratory measurement and recording equipment, what exactly is expected of Tom (who, as an applied physicist, is not associated with any university)? If a publication is not in a mainstream physics journal, then no credibility in the physics community is generated. There have been hundreds of excellent scientific experiments that have already been published (many of them at leading universities) that have demonstrated the existence of psi (e.g., Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ’s work at Stanford U – I suggest you have a conversation with Dean Radin about this, he is probably aware of most of this work since it is a topic he often writes about) and none of it has ever been taken seriously by mainstream science. Why do you think Tom doing an experiment would make any difference at all to how seriously he is taken? The most likely result of such experiments, no matter how carefully they are done or how dramatic the results are, would be to generate widely reported dismissive ridicule from mainstream science and material reductionists in general. That is simply how science and public opinion works in our culture (and the way it has historically worked).

Another experiment that scientifically shows psi to be a real phenomenon will make absolutely no difference. The problem is not a lack of evidence, (there is lots of good quality hard scientific evidence) but rather that evidence that runs counter to present scientific belief is automatically discounted no matter who does it, where it is done, or how rigorously the scientific method and protocols were. It is easily dismissed as “sloppy science” not because anyone examines how it was done, but simply because it “must be sloppy science” because its results are impossible according to current scientific belief – no need to bother looking into it. In fact, the mere act of seriously looking into it could easily jeopardize a serious scientist’s career.

The scientists at PEAR labs had an open invitation to other scientists to come in and inspect the quality of their science – all to no avail. Those who did quietly look couldn’t find any errors but in public they concluded that although they could find no problems, there must be some unknown error since the results were clearly impossible. Those who never looked into PEAR’s scientific quality hypothesized that because the PEAR results were so small, they didn’t count (couldn’t be significant) – a blatantly illogical and completely unscientific comment. Measured results are meaningful if they are much larger than the possible measurement errors. The results of careful and conservative error assessment at PEAR was over a billion to one that the psi effects they measured were real… that is about a million time more rigor (higher statistical significance) than good science generally demands.

Since Pear labs was humiliated (taken LESS seriously, not more seriously) because of the derisive comments that were publicly directed at PEAR labs research by the mainstream physics community in denial, what do you think would happen to Tom Campbell’s scientific reputation when his proposed research validating psi was published? What you envision as a great leap forward for the credibility of Tom’s work, would more likely be a big step backward after those in denial and those who simply don’t understand were done vilifying and ridiculing Tom for claiming the impossible.

Major paradigm shifts generally take place from the ground up, not from the top down. The top is always heavily invested in the status quo. Eventually mainstream scientists will see the bigger picture that Tom presents. Shouting matches and name calling won’t make that day come any sooner. The scientists will come along when they are ready….and not before.

The need for more “proof” is an imaginary issue. Dean Radin in his interview with Tom said "Proof is about alcohol, I have evidence". Anyone having a credibility problem with MBT or Tom Campbell because there is not any good published research to back it up is simply out of touch with reality --- caught in a cultural belief trap. Like the scientists, they will come along when they are ready (after prevailing cultural opinion assures them that it is OK).

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8954&p=80652#p80652


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Thanks; Well I took the personally test this morning and it said I was an Artisan, which actually does seem to fit my personality.

I have come to realize that we just have completely opposite worldviews and it really is ridiculous to even engage in any kind of logical conversation about it. He is processing his data stream as a materialistic, objective reality. I am processing my data stream as a probabilistic virtual reality. In many ways, it is like he is operating from a handicapped or disabled viewpoint because of his beliefs.

I know that I need to look upon him with compassion, and respond with love, because he is doing the best he can with what he has. BUT.. I have to admit it is very difficult to hear him describe me as someone who doesn't know "all the facts", when I absolutely have been exploring these things substantially and with great interest.

I just focus on the fact that Tom has said that "it doesn't matter WHAT has happened, what matters is how you react to it." :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:35 pm 
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I agree with everyone, thank you for the responses; We have settled back into our normalcy, its as if nothing ever happened; :)
It has allowed me to realize that we all have our own realities and everyone is on their own path. I am still marveling at how differently he processes me through his data stream!

One side effect of the encounter was that my son and I were able to finish our conversation alone, the next day. It was very fruitful and he is definitely on a path that that could possibly open up his reality space even more someday;


I need to correct a mis-statement in my first post; I feel like I am a bit further along in removing beliefs and un-learning certain cultural conditioning than my husband. Its NOT that I am further along in evolution of consciousness.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Hello Earthshine,

About your reaction:

Why did you get mad? What's the fear behind that reaction? Why do you need to be right? Do you think he should view it a certain way? Is there a better way you can handle his rebuttal of your viewpoint? What's the truth? Is there anyway you can communicate more productively?

You should have some serious self analyzation here and the questions above are meant to guide you in your own analysis process. You need not answer them here (unless of course you're so inclinced to). Remember, this most important thing you can get from MBT is to make your supreme and highest goal : Personal Consciousness Evolution. That, in part, means squashing your own fears and belief patterns. If you are having negative reactions, that is your own ego-choice to an outside stimuli. What's more important than your husband understanding VR-physics theory is that you reduce your entropy, become Love.


About communicating with your husband:

You don't necessarily have to talk about it with him in person, as it seems to bring up tension and conflict. What if you spammed him with emails filled with links quotes, articles, studies, that all point towards VR explaining the data better. Just because your husband teaches college physics and engineering physics, doesn't mean he has a clear grasp on QUANTUM MECHANICS. Because he is a PhD, he is so inclined to answer questions knowledgeably, but there is a potential that an in-depth understanding of the double slit experiment is not practically useful for him. Just spam him with the stuff if you're so inclined. Bruice Lipton, Brian Whitworth, & Dean Radin. These guys might resonate with him. Thomas Seyfried, a cancer researcher, but who also talks about the entrenched DOGMA of the scientific community might also help him see the DOGMA which exists in his own, school, department,& own mind.

What's the worse that can happen? He tells you to stop emailing him this junk, or just deletes it without reading it and tells you he checked it out anyway. No need to get upset if you do that, it's his own defense mechanism. But if the articles keep coming, video after video to his inbox, day after day. He'll probably read or watch 1 or 2. It may be very important for him to learn and understand this stuff, if you Love him and truly feel this information you are sending is good and good for him, then what's the harm eh? How about: What's the best that can happen? He sees there is some possibility that it might be true and convinces his college to be one of the first to try out Tom's QM experiments that were presented last year in LA OCT 2016 and your husband gets super recognition in his field as a ground breaker.



Lastly:

There are so many choices available to you that you are not aware. We call this "decision space." Make the best choices you can every day, and then keep moving forward. Taste the pudding. Analyze your choices, what could have went better? Go to sleep. Wake up. Rinse and repeat. Through this steady process of bootstrapping and entropy reducing by making each little choice count every day in the moment, you gain a full head of steam and momentum to blaze a trail of entropy reduction in your own life. You become aware of more choices. Your choices are better. Your personal power grows. Your ability to communicate effectively for the highest goal of system-wide entropy reduction gets better and better.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:31 am 
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earthshine,

Just keep in mind that your own job is to develop yourself. This is the most important thing for you to be concerned about. Manipulating your husband's environment and incoming information 'for his own good' does nothing to develop yourself. I would be more inclined to openly ask for his opinion of some of these things and the people who propose them. I'm sure that he is smart enough that he will catch on if you attempt to spam and manipulate him with information and will very likely resent it. This is not the best way to have a relationship with your spouse.

My personal preference is for openness and honesty.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:13 am 
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If it ever comes up again, the first order of business will be to clarify the definition of consciousness, so that another communication breakdown can be avoided.
To him, consciousness is simply another functionality of the brain.
Naturally, I have become comfortable in avoiding discussing these things with him, because, he simply has no interest whatsoever in NPMR. But I do love to speak telepathically to him! About the double slit experiment! Ha :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:20 am 
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Quote:
If it ever comes up again, the first order of business will be to clarify the definition of consciousness, so that another communication breakdown can be avoided.
To him, consciousness is simply another functionality of the brain.
Naturally, I have become comfortable in avoiding discussing these things with him, because, he simply has no interest whatsoever in NPMR. But I do love to speak telepathically to him! About the double slit experiment! Ha :)
Actions speak louder than words. Be the way you have evolved to be. You really can't change anybody. Over the years I've plenty of times tried to convince someone the way I have experienced and notice things about reality but it is really impossible. People are so fearful they are blissfully unaware they are stuck comfortably in beliefs of how things are. It is like swimming against a cruise ship trying to change someone.
BTW next time it comes up ask him where in the history of the world they have proved the brain generates consciousness....then wait with baited breath and watch the beliefs speak.
It is your practice to be comfortable in being the only person alive that knows something.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:22 pm 
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You have to meet people where they are. He has his beliefs, fears, ego, and experiences. He will change, or not. That isn't really your job. Just work on yourself. And let him evolve on his own unless he shows more interest in expanding his views.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Well this is a fun thread! :D :D We're still waiting for the definitive text on relationship from Tom, (the upcoming primal male primal female slated for release this decade).

I'll have to say: to those discouraging my advice above, that actions are not what counts but INTENTIONS. "Spamming" if done with the best of intents and done with the utmost social sensitivity can be an extremely effective tool. It must be done with the subtle sensibility of just "presenting information" rather than "trying to convince someone that your opinion is right.

I might also add a different perspective to contrast with the "let it be" perspectives given above. As Ted likes to mention, different personality types see things differently. Almost always, letting others be is the best decision one can make. We cannot change anyone, this is true. We can only change ourselves, also true.

HOWEVER, in this particular case, this individual happens to be your husband of 30 years, it doesn't seem like you will be divorcing anytime soon either. This individual is also a professor, possibly tenured, in a hard science field. He deals with students all day who look up to him and learn from him. He deals with colleagues who most probably share the same viewpoints and ideas. This is your husband, someone you truly care about (I hope :D ). Who else in his life, but his loving wife, will ever challenge his beliefs and ideas? Some might say "Well it's not your job to challenge his beliefs" and I'd have to whole-heartedly disagree.

If my wife didn't challenge me all the time on my knowledge AND beliefs, then my boneheaded self probably would never learn. It's also fun when she throws MBT back at me when I'm cranky hahaha "Adam, you're choosing to be upset right now" "Yes I am, and I can't help it right now" lol. It's only through different perspectives that we can contrast our own, and thus glean a deeper understanding of the truth. Without the primal female essence in life to challenge, poke, prod, evolve, CATALYZE, then life would be so dull, for me at least. Although some might disagree with me, coming from my perspective as a deeply primal male who likes to lead and make difficult decisions, I relish the opportunity to have someone challenge and test me. Especially when it's my loving wife, who's opinion I highly regard.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:22 pm 
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Hi earthshine,

It sounds like you have your perfect training partner :)) , I am close to 30 years of marriage but not quite, My wife has been with me through the best and worse of me, what I think was man-O-pause, PTSD, psychotic break, empty nest syndrome ? she hung in there and I appreciate her even in the times I didn't. She doesn't flow with how I think, she is 95% in the human experience, even though she can talk to her guides at times and get info from them in her dreams,,, I really think she is further along than me but something in the human experience is not letting her open up or want to engage and experience, maybe its our son who left/moved out at 16 years old to start college. I have found once you start screwing with their belief system, shit starts getting out of hand and emotions start to flare up, she likes it here and I would prefer to explore the LCS to learn and gain wisdom to find out what the hell I am, she thinks I am bat shit crazy :)) as do many.. Even my son,, I know he is so much more powerful than me as far as pure goodness and instinctual knowing.. I had him read Toms book at 12 :) he gives me shit when he notices my ego is flaring up,,,, I love that kid.... family is good and lasting, learn from it.. If you get upset it is your EGO, I have learned that the hard way.

Have a good one.

-Toby


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