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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:17 pm 
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You keep quoting Tom out of context to make your point although he directly said he doesn't recommend any particular diet.

I did not quote Tom out of context because I wasn't quoting him to say he recommends veganism for everyone. The quotes were for the moral issue being raised and a response to you saying it was his son who wrote about it.


I have literally addressed him not recommending any particular diet like 4 times already. Simply because he refuses to make any generalized statements to always be applicable, that does not mean that he doesn't think one diet is more inline with MBT ethics in principle, or that one diet isn't a viable option "99.9%" of the time as he specifically said. That is the nuance here. Hence why he says more people becoming vegan is a sign of positive consciousness evolution and why he makes the moral argument in the first video I linked that killing animals, if you don't have to, is against MBT ethics.

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Firstly, you'd have to explain all the people who tried their best with vegetarian/vegan diets but had to quit due to health reasons.


We're not doing your psuedo-science/anecdotal evidence here. Link figures/statistics/studies as evidence for your claim where we can actually break down the variables in play, I.E not eating proper foods.
It's not like these non-meat diets aren't growing in numbers as they are a viable option for millions of people in which heath benefits haven't been studied, right?




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Secondly, killing other conscious beings because you don't have to takes a lot of forms, it is not just about food; if one's very strict about this issue then one ends living in a cave somewhere.
What a disengenuous way to frame the moral statement. It's not about living in a cave to prevent any potential harm to anything, it's about choosing a path that will lead to less killing, suffering, and limiting of the decision space of other conscious beings given a certain level of awareness and practicality. It's actually not difficult for a vegetarian/vegan to not lead to the killing/imprisonment/suffering of animals by consuming plants. I hope you are not talking about insects and the way they feel pain...

Even in the vegan definiton from the vegan society, "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
Is there one path that leads to less of that? Yes. That is the philosophy. It's not about never eat or walk incase you kill an insect, so what is the point of this stupid extremist example.


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Bambi cartoons and propaganda 'documentaries' can only last so long until the ruleset of this PMR kicks in
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ook at the vitriol and hate in the messages from the vegan community when a YouTube/Instagram popular vegan announces that s/he goes back to eating meat.
It's a well known fact that vegans are one of the most intolerant cults out there
And yet ironically, you are the one spewing psuedo-science and propaganda against this diet.
How about digging into someone's post histroy when they requested healing for depresson and making your low-IQ assumption that it was due to veganism to shame vegans for their diet? Surely you are aware of your bias?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:52 pm 
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I just mentioned veganism being an intolerant cult and here you are, claiming in your previous post that I'm clueless and now:
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stupid extremist example.
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your low-IQ assumption
.

What links and studies do you want? It's easy to find stories of ex-vegans, but you're just going to say that all these people 'didn't do veganism right'.
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What a disengenuous way to frame the moral statement. It's not about living in a cave to prevent any potential harm to anything, it's about choosing a path that will lead to less killing, suffering, and limiting of the decision space of other conscious beings given a certain level of awareness and practicality. It's actually not difficult for a vegetarian/vegan to not lead to the killing/imprisonment/suffering of animals by consuming plants.
Not disingenuous at all. Compare for instance a meat eater who buys his food locally sourced and has maybe one vacation/year where he travels by car to a vegan who lives in a big city, has most of his food flown from all over the world, flies for city breaks every month or so, and twice a year takes vacations to the other side of the world. It's about the whole lifestyle of a person - eating is just a part of it. So yeah, the likes of Schwarzenegger or James Cameron might not be eating meat anymore...but their style of living impacts much more on other conscious beings than your average meat eater.
Quote:
And yet ironically, you are the one spewing psuedo-science and propaganda against this diet.
How about digging into someone's post histroy when they requested healing for depresson and making your low-IQ assumption that it was due to veganism to shame vegans for their diet? Surely you are aware of your bias?
What pseudo-science and propaganda have I spewed?
It's a well known fact that diet has a major impact on both mental and physical health. It's logical to first address the obvious issues before trying to use NPMR energy.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:49 pm 
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According to this study a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health including higher incidence of cancer, allergies and mental health disorders.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... =printable


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:53 am 
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According to this study a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health including higher incidence of cancer, allergies and mental health disorders.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... =printable
Did you read the study? I would guess not, since it doesn't support what you seem to imply, that the study finds a causal inference. It does not.

This is a good time to say that both the media and individuals often misrepresents scientific research and articles, by latching on to the title and/or results, without reading the discussion of the article, or being unable to understand the research in context of the whole field of study (not an easy thing).

Let us look at the discussion of the article you linked (my emphasis in the quoted text below):
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Discussion
Overall, our findings reveal that vegetarians report poorer health, follow medical treatment more frequently, have worse preventive health care practices, and have a lower quality of life.Concerning the variable ‘‘eating behavior’’, we tried to generate avariable that would reflect the animal fat intake (1 = vegetarian,2 = carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables, 3 = carnivorous diet less rich in meat, 4 = carnivorous diet rich in meat). The mean BMI of subjects is coupled in nearly linear progression with the amount of animal fat intake. This is in line with previous studies showing vegetarians to have a lower body mass index [1,4,5,7,9–12]. Our results have shown that vegetarians report chronic conditions and poorer subjective health more frequently. This might indicate that the vegetarians in our study consume this form of diet as a consequence of their disorders, since a vegetarian diet is often recommended as a method to manage weight [10] and health [46].

This should have been the first thought of any reader, as it should be well-known that becoming vegetarian is often a result of an already existing health issue (can be chronic, genetic), as a way of managing the health issue. If the person's health situation becomes better as a result, that person will often stay vegetarian. That speaks well for the vegetarian diet, but if you look at the results (as many do), you might think that being vegetarian causes all these health disorders, but it's simply not supported in that data, as the authors acknowledges.

You need a much more complex study to take into account that a significant subset of the group of people that becomes vegetarians, suffer from health conditions, and thus you have a 'steady flow' of poor health people becoming part of the vegetarian group, and they are removed from the carnivorous group (even though they most likely have been part of the group for most of their life).
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Unfortunately, food intake was not measured in more detail, e.g. caloric intake was not covered. Hence, further studies will be necessary to analyze health and its relationship with different forms of dietary habits in more detail. When analyzing the frequency of chronic diseases, we found significantly higher cancer incidence rates in vegetarians than in subjects with other dietary habits. This is in line with previous findings, reporting that evidence about cancer rates, abdominal complaints, and all-cause mortality in vegetarians is rather inconsistent [5–7,19–22]. The higher cancer incidence in vegetarians in our study might be a coincidence, and is possibly related to factors other than the general amount of animal fat intake, such as health-conscious behavior, since no differences were found regarding smoking behavior and physical activity in Austrian adults as reported in other studies for other countries [9,13,14].
Here they discuss the higher cancer incidence rates in vegetarians. It should be no surprise that many people faced with cancer will try their best to become more healthy, and one relatively common response is to become vegetarian, or eat more vegetables and less meat, which fits with the high cancer incidence rate of the "Carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables" group as well.

Analyzing when these people with cancer became vegetarian or began to eat more vegetables and less meat, in relation to their diagnosis, should reveal a clear trend. The same can be said for the rest of the study.
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Therefore, further studies will be required in Austria in order to analyze the incidence of different types of cancer and their association with nutritional factors in more depth. Several studies have shown the mental health effects of a vegetarian diet to be divergent [9,15,16]. Vegetarians in our study suffer significantly more often from anxiety disorder and/or depression. Additionally, they have a poorer quality of life in terms of physical health, social relationships, and environmental factors. Moreover, the use of health care differs significantly between the dietary habit groups in our study. Vegetarians need more medical treatment than subjects following another form of diet. However, this might be due to the number of chronic conditions, which is higher in subjects with a vegetarian diet.
Again, that a large subset of the vegetarians in their study have poorer mental health, does not imply that a vegetarian diet causes poorer mental health. It is much more likely that they are instead highly correlated due to other factors.

As for an explanation other than trying to improve one's physical health (or possibly also mental health) through diet, I would make the hypothesis that a significant part of the numbers can be explained by the idea that individuals suffering from anxiety and/or depression are more likely to be part of a subculture or counterculture than the average population, and that these are on average more associated with veganism or vegetarianism than not. This is just an idea however.

[...]
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Potential limitations of our results are due to the fact that the survey was based on cross-sectional data. Therefore, no statements can be made whether the poorer health in vegetarians in our study is caused by their dietary habit or if they consume this form of diet due to their poorer health status. We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations. More-over, we cannot give any information regarding the long-term consequences of consuming a special diet nor concerning mortality rates.
And to put into a larger context, and the scope of the study:
Quote:
To our knowledge this is the first study ever in Austria to analyze differences in terms of dietary habits and their impact on health. We admit that the large number of participants made it necessary to keep the questions simple, in order to cover the large sample. Overall, we feel that our results are of specific interest and contribute to extant scientific knowledge, not with-standing some limitations regarding causes and effects.

I can recommend reading this take on the study, made by the NHS: https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/v ... dy-claims/#
They have a "Behind the Headlines" section that looks into situations like this, where the media report something with little nuance.

In general I encourage you all to instead of posting articles as ammunition to settle a debate, to actually read them in-depth and practice critical thinking. Try to find flaws and limitations in the studies, and try to understand how this 'piece of the puzzle' fits into the larger picture of all the research of the field. This requires much more dedication that just linking articles that seems to support one's viewpoint, but that dedication is rewarded with hopefully more scientific literacy, which is valuable.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:04 pm 
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I would like us to get back to the concept of evolution and efficiency, lower entropy etc. Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:23 am 
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I would like us to get back to the concept of evolution and efficiency, lower entropy etc. Any thoughts?
You are witnessing Consciousness evolution, efficiency and the lowering of entropy in action on this thread


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:16 am 
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I have recently got back on course..

RE: My journey from veggie to vegan..

I have been fully veggie for several months now..but still working on eliminating the remaining dairy products i consume..


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Pipeman84: @Human+
I just mentioned veganism being an intolerant cult and here you are, claiming in your previous post that I'm clueless and now:
1. Referring to your arguments/examples as stupid does not mean I am in a cult...
2. I am not vegan

Talking to you is like a constant re-orienting of the discussion.

Quote:
What links and studies do you want? It's easy to find stories of ex-vegans,
Right, I am looking for the opposite of personal/anecdotal "stories" to justify sweeping generalizations about veganism...

The argument was never that some people don't work well with a vegan diet. A study on the degree and reasons why is relevant to me and then we can conclude if it justifies a sweeping generalization about the diet. That's why I brought up that there are millions of vegans and the number is growing.



Quote:
Compare for instance a meat eater who buys his food locally sourced and has maybe one vacation/year where he travels by car to a vegan who lives in a big city, has most of his food flown from all over the world, flies for city breaks every month or so, and twice a year takes vacations to the other side of the world. It's about the whole lifestyle of a person - eating is just a part of it. So yeah, the likes of Schwarzenegger or James Cameron might not be eating meat anymore...but their style of living impacts much more on other conscious beings than your average meat eater.

First, this doesn't address the point at all. Second, the meat eater who exclusively buys meat that is not factory farmed is an extreme outlier and isn't possible for the majority of the population. On top of that, it still doesn't mean imported vegan food causes more harm to animals just because it's flown in or limits their decision space more.
Actually, vegans are much more likely to buy locally-sourced foods while you forget that for meat: animal feed, antibiotics etc. also have to be flown in.

The nuance is practicality and intent. You make the decision that you are not going to live in a cave for the rest of your life but you also have the intent to reduce animal suffering as much as you can when you are consciously aware of it.
This does not mean because you didn't account 100% of animal well-being(I.E. stepped on an insect) veganism is hypocritical and wrong, so what are you trying to get at.


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What pseudo-science and propaganda have I spewed?
I.E. Claiming a member is depressed because it's "It's clearly a diet related thing" to them being vegan and everything else you stated as a generalization of veganism without a source.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:09 am 
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I don't make the sweeping generalizations about veganism because I read the stories of ex-vegans...those are just the cherries on top of the cake. A basic knowledge of the ruleset of this PMR (things one learns in school before one's 16yrs old) is enough for that.
The observational studies you're looking for are worthless - they can't show causation no matter what. They're also very unreliable due to design (fill in a food questionnaire once every few years) and human nature (are they really eating what they claim to be eating? or are they intentionally or not forgetting something?)
A truly useful study such as a randomized trial (where you take 1000 people, feed them an omnivore diet, 1000 people feed them a vegan diet, all under supervision to prevent cheating and follow them for at least 5 years) will never be done.
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That's why I brought up that there are millions of vegans and the number is growing.
Just like there are millions of new gym sign-ups in January, that doesn't mean we have millions of new fit men and women. The majority quit within a year, just like these new vegans (posted a link about that a few pages back).
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Actually, vegans are much more likely to buy locally-sourced foods while you forget that for meat: animal feed, antibiotics etc. also have to be flown in.
What percentage of the ingredients in the typical vegan smoothie grows locally in the Northern Hemisphere? (studies please :)) Furthermore, to equal the nutrition offered by a cow, how much land would be necessary to grow all that stuff? And how many animals would be killed to protect the crops? Here's an example: https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/new ... egan-food/


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:22 pm 
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A basic knowledge of the ruleset of this PMR (things one learns in school before one's 16yrs old) is enough for that.
So you invoke, "basic knowledge of the ruleset of this PMR" to justify your sweeping generalizations against veganism while saying there are no studies that can show causation for your claims or even satisfy the claim so you are not going to bother. lol
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I don't make the sweeping generalizations about veganism because I read the stories of ex-vegans...those are just the cherries on top of the cake.
Lol ok. Apparently, all you have is those, "cherries on top" and you do love cherry-picking for sure.

You don't justify it with those anecdotal stories and you don't justify it with any studies - so what do you justify it with? "basic knowledge of this PMR ruleset". You are not a serious human to talk to.

Quote:
Just like there are millions of new gym sign-ups in January, that doesn't mean we have millions of new fit men and women. The majority quit within a year, just like these new vegan
Horrible analogy because even if there's people who quit their vegan diet, the overall number is growing and is quite vast in the first place contrary to your sweeping generalizations about it not being viable.

Quote:
What percentage of the ingredients in the typical vegan smoothie grows locally in the Northern Hemisphere?(studies please :))
You're really demonstrating your intelligence by pivoting to a question about studies for a "typical vegan smoothie". Before this tangent you would like to pivot to, lets address the reply: do you disagree with the claim that vegans are much more likely to buy locally-sourced food? We already know the answer.
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how much land would be necessary to grow all that stuff? And how many animals would be killed to protect the crops? Here's an example: https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/new ... egan-food/
So you linked an article on a farmer's opinion that producing crops can result in animal deaths. Cool, not only is that not relevant to how we already addressed the philosophy of veganism, it also doesn't address the comparative degree of animal captivity, suffering, and death vs factory farming and meat consumption. Since you refuse to justify anything you say and only argue in bad faith, I think I will leave the discussion at that. We have fleshed out two sides for anyone who cares to read.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Basic knowledge of PMR ruleset = anatomy, biology, history, biochemistry etc. If after studying all this + the experience of day to day living in this world leads one to believe veganism is the way to go, be my guest. Regarding your studies obsession, let me make one last try: if one insists it's OK, even good, to jump from the first floor of a building instead of using the stairs, wouldn't basic knowledge of this PMR ruleset + plenty of 'anecdotes' of people who tried this and got injured be enough for you to realize it's a bad idea? Or would you insist on studies to demonstrate this? And bring examples of certain people (athletic, wearing appropriate shoes etc) in certain conditions (first floor not too high, no cement underneath etc) that have no issues jumping from the first floor?
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You're really demonstrating your intelligence by pivoting to a question about studies for a "typical vegan smoothie".
That was meant as a joke, I thought the use of :) made it obvious.
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do you disagree with the claim that vegans are much more likely to buy locally-sourced food?
I tend to disagree.
Quote:
So you linked an article on a farmer's opinion that producing crops can result in animal deaths. Cool, not only is that not relevant to how we already addressed the philosophy of veganism, it also doesn't address the comparative degree of animal captivity, suffering, and death vs factory farming and meat consumption.
It's not an opinion, those are facts. Getting into a contest who kills more animals a vegan or an omnivore is ridiculous and counterproductive.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:46 pm 
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I've spent more time than any reasonable person should obsessively researching diet and nutrition for optimizing both general health/longevity and for developing abilities to access the LCS.

For maximizing health-span & longevity I find Dr. Valter Longo's longevity diet + occasional 5-day fast-mimicking diet (or water fast if you can tolerate it) to be the ideal currently. This diet is an almost, though not quite, whole food plant-based vegan diet, but with the addition of including fish/seafood around 3 times a week. I toyed with full-veganism, and it's definitely possible to do, but it's not without risks, and I don't want to be reliant upon industrialized supplements when I can simply eat some shellfish or sardines a couple of times a week instead of processed pills and powders. This diet is also probably playing it too safe with regard to the protein and animal consumption, I think you can get away with eating more protein and more animal products and be just as healthy (I almost double his recommended protein via fish & lentils on some training days), but to stay on the safe side I try to keep to his template most days.

For optimizing spiritual development and skills related to the LCS the above diet is very much like the Nutritarian diet Tom follows, and probably errs even more on the side of caution with sugars by minimizing natural fruits and starches, encouraging more fats and slow carbs (beans/nuts). Regarding animal products, I've heard from enough people to conclude that it really does not affect access to the LCS from a strictly functional perspective, but from a holistic and ethical growth perspective the prudent thing is still to try and move towards a future where animals should not need to be killed just for our sustenance, and taking steps in that direction is advisable. From that angle, the main thing in question with this diet is the fish, and I think if you're only eating it for sustenance and minimizing both quantity and frequency without indulging, from an ethical position that's pretty good. If you google bivalvegan or ostravegan you will come across a great argument for including oysters & mussels, and I would stick to only those if it were more convenient to do so, but for now I also include sardines, salmon, and some other shellfish.

One final issue I'm still actively researching, and I think it's the most contentious and unexplored part of "spiritual" diets, is the concept of prana/qi & subtle planes, which have something to do with what modern terminology has labeled biophotons/bioenergetics and the debatable possibility of the ether. I have been assembling a, admittedly, incomplete model of this that has something to do with living organisms, for lack of a better description, grasping towards (or reaching for) future states of life which include them surviving/thriving. These foods still have this life force flowing through them at a much higher level than other foods. These most Sattvic foods according to ancient Ayurveda, which has corollaries to Taoist and other esoteric nutritional systems, are fresh living fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, honey, and ethical dairy. I will be experimenting with this on retreats.

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"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin


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