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 Post subject: MBT and my Vegan Journey
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:47 am 
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Should have started this back on my first day of becoming vegan, 30th December 2013.

We were staying in a hotel and had bought ourselves a whole load of cheeses and biscuits to feast on in the room. Roule, strong cheddar and blue St Agur, plus crackers, nuts, grapes, chocolate pastries and wine of course. It was lush but I did get heart burn and felt so lethargic the next day I had no energy to do anything.

I had been listening to the audio book of Tom Campbell's My Big Toe as I went to sleep at night. Most often I fell asleep as I listened so I'm not sure how much I have taken in, but it's had some profound effects on my subconscious as I have made several lifestyle changes. The book talks about all living things being equal on a molecular and evolutionary level, with similar patterns of behaviour and efficiency and common goals – i.e. to survive and become more efficient as a species. I realised we are all one, we should not raise ourselves above all other creatures on the planet, we should embrace, nurture and harmonise to become more efficient and so evolve.

First of all, I became ravenous for food documentaries, I began watching every documentary I could find, including Food Matters, Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead, Vegucated, Farmaggedon, Food Inc., I learned about nutrition and the body's ability to self heal, with arguments against the medical establishment and all the pills we pop to treat symptoms, rather than go to the source and protect our body from damage in the first place.

I learned as much as I could find about our modern farming practises, where animals were kept, what they were fed, how they were treated, what drugs they are given, how they keep a cow lactating to produce the milk that we drink. I was shocked, sickened, emotionally low at the reality of our treatment of animals. I burst into tears and had to leave the room at one point when I watched a production line of screaming piglets being hung upside down and having their testicles hacked off. Similarly watching calves get dragged off the teat and separated from their mothers while they are being roughly re-inseminated. The terrible noises of the upset, abused and frantic animals reminded me of film clips I have seen of the atrocities of the Nazi concentration camps when children were separated and dragged screaming from their parents. My eyes were finally opening to the reality of the situation, how we have turned farming into a factory operation with animals as the ingredients, producing chemically enhanced versions of foods that we take for granted as nutritious. You know most farm animals are given antibiotics as part of their diet to fight all the infections they are expected to get from amputations, excrement and bad food. Antibiotics are now in the meat that we eat. No wonder we are developing immunity to antibiotics.

Overnight on the 30th December I decided I was never going to eat meat again, and at the same time, it dawned on me that to be free of my involvement with cruelty to animals, they only way forward was to give up dairy too. I decided that never again would an animal be killed or enslaved and mistreated for my benefit. Then of course, I realised that I couldn't wear their skins either, so vowed to buy no more leather shoes. But I am holding on to my winter leather boots for the next twenty years if they will last, as it would be just as unethical to throw them away when an animal died to put them on my feet!

The first two weeks were hard and then I suddenly adapted. At the beginning I craved cheese, milk chocolate and chicken, but I enjoyed researching replacements such as vegan soya milk and cheeses, dark chocolate and soya meat products such as tofu and mince. I ate a lot of quorn at the beginning until I realised it is made with organic egg, but as the weeks went by, I didn't want to replicate meat. It just wasn't necessary. I learnt that cancer cells actively grow in a protein diet above 10% - most western people probably eat more like 30-40% meat and dairy so it's not really a surprise that cancer is flourishing. Humans only need between 5-10% protein in a healthy diet, and a potato is 8% protein! So there you have the answer. There is enough protein for our needs in vegetables and pulses. We have been brainwashed by the meat and dairy industry into thinking we need to eat lots of protein...when actually it is making us ill.

In the first week I started making fruit and veg smoothies every day. They were delicious but I went to the toilet up to six times a day – it was horrendous – but as the documentaries had warned me, that was my body detoxing and cleaning itself out, and eventually my toilet habits went back to normal.

By week three, I had changed my eating habits quite drastically and I was very excited and full of energy. I discovered butternut squash and how good it tastes and filling it is. I used it in stews or just microwaved a slice for a couple of mins and chopped up with walnut oil, advocado, tomato and walnuts, plus balsamic vinegar. It tasted so good, I ate tonnes of the stuff for two weeks solid!

I tried many soya, rice and oat milks and settle on hazlenut milk as my (decaffeinated) coffee companion. And now for a treat, I found that one or two squares of dark organic chocolate was enough instead of a whole bar of milk chocolate.

I went to the health food shop and stocked up on nuts, seeds and dried fruits such as dates, apricots and cranberries. Now I just randomly add a handful of them to any of my meals or breakfast cereals when it suits. Another hard thing to take on board was the fact that there are a small selection of vegan wines available. But I thought all wine was vegan?! No, apparently wine is usually filtered through fish bladders to make it clearer....ugggh.

I have continued watching documentaries and am now moving towards buying only organic produce after learning about Monsanto's domination in the soya bean world with it's genetically modified seeds and giant lawsuits against farmers who try to grow their own. Plus another chemical giant, Bayer, and all the chemicals being sprayed onto crops around the globe and how poisonous they are to other species. Petrol based fertilisers and pesticides are killing bees, birds and butterflies and turning the top soil barren. We are killing our own eco system and if the bees stop pollinating our fruit and veg, we and the animals will have nothing to eat, apart from genetically modified corn and factory-farmed antibiotic treated and urine-sprayed meat. What kind of creatures will we become on such a diet?

It's now been 8 months and I think I have changed for good. I don't think there is any going back because once you know something, you can't unlearn it. If I see a piece of meat on a fork I think of screaming piglets and wailing calves. It doesn't make sense to me to treat animals so badly, or to spray foods and the ground with poisons which are making us and the eco system sick on a global scale. That can't be efficiency in the long term. We are sabotaging our own species...

Rant over for now. I wonder what's next!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Many of us have come to most of your conclusions. I hate the smell of meat cooking and avoid it if at all possible.

I do feed my animals canned food from animals. I haven't quite figured out what to do about their diet yet.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:54 am 
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Hi, I know my reply is a little late (!) but I'm vegan too, and this is a really great source of information about vegan vs non-vegan pet food I wanted to share particularly with Sainbury :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDpksTlEAyI


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:29 pm 
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Thanks Elk.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:19 am 
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Humans only need between 5-10% protein in a healthy diet, and a potato is 8% protein! So there you have the answer. There is enough protein for our needs in vegetables and pulses. We have been brainwashed by the meat and dairy industry into thinking we need to eat lots of protein...when actually it is making us ill.
Saying that a potato is 8% protein and thus fulfills a body's need for protein is like saying that a Zimbabwe dollar equivalent to US $ and one can live off let's say 1000/month.
You have been brainwashed by those so-called documentaries (in reality vegan propaganda) not by the meat and dairy industry. While there is abuse in those industries and improvements can, are being and should continue to be made, denying the human evolution and nature and trying to subsist only on plants is not the answer. On the contrary, there are a host of industries, from the processed food (veggie burgers, 'milks' and so on) to the medical and pharmaceutical (because a vegan diet will most probably make one sick) that will gladly take your money.
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I decided that never again would an animal be killed or enslaved and mistreated for my benefit.
Have you learned to live just on air and now live on top of a mountain? Because if not, animals are killed to your benefit.
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If I see a piece of meat on a fork I think of screaming piglets and wailing calves.
Veganism is a fad of first world people with easy access to fruit/veg from all over the world - you go to Africa or SE Asia and tell that to those people who either starve to death, go hungry to bed or subsist on garbage processed foods received as 'humanitarian help'.

Going vegan because of Tom's work must be one of those gross misunderstandings on par with the classic religious one that claims that a person can become enlightened only by renouncing all material pleasures and retreating to a monastery to live his life in constant prayer.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Thanks for reading my article. Changing your state of mind is difficult I know, particularly if you enjoy what you know (I.e eating animals). I would be interested to know what you think Tom means or what you think you can do to lower your entropy/evolve.
Best wishes
Teresa


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:50 pm 
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at first i accepted and put the label "vegan" on myself, but have realized i prefer not to call myself that. if it comes up i just tell people i avoid animal products, do not buy them and try to be polite at peoples homes and eat what they offer.

for most people they never thought about not eating animal foods. i though it was normal, natural and healthy my whole life until i learned about the health, animal and environment concerns. i never really thought about it.

remember by not eating a salad at someones house because there is egg or milk in the salad dressing you might be doing more harm than good by not eating it because you are showing them how difficult it is to not eat all animal foods, even trace amounts. by letting a little go it is not making a difference and you are showing people it is easy, just dont buy it yourself and avoid it as reasonably possible. thats the best you can do for the animals and to try to help them.

as Tom has said it is polite to eat what people serve but that is also time to share your views and facts. try not to be pushy and just answer questions people have... one of the best things you can do is be educated about the topic as some people might try to make you look like a fool in front of others for not eating animals and having an educated response is best. they feel they need to justify their eating habits and try to discredit you sometimes.

my mom a couple of years ago came home all concerned about protein after i got her to stop buying animal foods. she said she was eating dinner with a bunch of women and they all said she was protein deficient and she felt like a compete fool for not having an educated response for them. try to remember eating animal foods is orthodoxy and many people believe you have to eat animal foods to be healthy and get protein and calcium, etc. by knowing much more than them you will be able to throw out facts and be the educated one in the conversation. you will not let them make you look like a fool in front of others and you have a better chance of helping them. you will likely not change anyones mind on the spot but you can plant a seed.

i found just watching youtube videos from the leading plant based doctors helpful. why do i avoid animal foods? weight gain, heart attack, stroke, blood pressure, impotence, estrogen is female hormones, high levels of pesticides accumulated in the flesh, environment, ethics, cost, etc.

where do i get my protein? in every single plant food i eat, etc.

i have been successful getting a few people to make the change for good, people i care about. i wish you luck.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:35 am 
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I asked Tom twice I believe through Fireside chats if he generally recommends a vegan diet and if he recommends his particular diet (veggie smoothies and bean soups) and he answered NO to both questions.
Some look at Tom's way of eating and naively believe that by adopting his diet will be able to do what he does. That's like thinking that you can experience spontaneous OBEs if you start eating junk food, donuts and smoke a pack/day or more, because that's what Robert Monroe was doing when he started having OBEs.
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I would be interested to know what you think Tom means or what you think you can do to lower your entropy/evolve.
He always says: get rid of your fear, beliefs, ego. Become love. Be open-minded but skeptic. Nowhere have I heard him say: ruin your physical and mental health by adopting a misguided, fad diet.
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i found just watching youtube videos from the leading plant based doctors helpful. why do i avoid animal foods? weight gain, heart attack, stroke, blood pressure, impotence, estrogen is female hormones, high levels of pesticides accumulated in the flesh, environment, ethics, cost, etc.

These vegan doctors (like Greger, McDougall) are one of the best reasons to do the opposite of what they advocate. Unless you want to become emaciated, sarcopenic and prematurely aged like them.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:57 am 
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Tom isn't healthy on what he eats because he is low entropy. Many people are perfectly healthy on a vegan diet. It depends upon how diligent you are about balancing what you eat.

You are completely disregarding everything Tom has said about killing animals for food. But in the end, of course, it is a personal decision.

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t55aFYWl_FI
:22:30 Lifestype choices - Veganism as a sign of increased consciousness?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJI68YgN7TY
MBT Forum March 2011 Pt 2/5

1:42 in

The vegetarian thing is basically about - it's a moral decision. Now to some people it's a nutritional decision or it's something else. But for me it's a more of a moral decision. Other things are there learning and growing and that includes chickens as well. And you raise them to kill them. What are you doing to their opportunity to evolve? Well you may say a cattle pen or a barnyard is a good place to evolve. But is it really? It seems to me you have limited the decision so much by penning them all up in a box that they no longer have the kind of decisions that they would have if they were "wild" - when the cattle or the horses or the chickens or whatever were out doing whatever they did in the wild. They had a much bigger decision space. When you hatch them and keep them in a little box you've kind of taken the decision space away - not entirely - you've just shrunk it down.

So the point is what are you doing? And you have to balance... there's still some decision space. It's just in a little box. If you live in a box by yourself there is very little decision space. So now you've kind of created a branch of these critters that no longer have much decision space or learning curve. But it's not reduced to zero.

They are just consciousness and they are evolving at a level that is effective for them. Now if this reality let's say supports a hundred thousand living critters, course it's billions, and that's because they are raising a whole bunch of them for meat and you took away meat so now it only supports ten thousand critters - the wild critters. Well it's really not that way. It's the opposite of that. There is a lot more wild critters than there are critters in pens. So the opportunity to come back as a critter would probably not be a problem. So I would think that would not be a good excuse.

The repercussions (of eating meat) are mainly there if your awareness supports it. Again it's not the act so much the problem as your awareness of the problem. If your level of awareness is that you eat meat because your family always ate meat then you are probably not losing points because you are eating meat. It's what you do. It's where you are. It's the kind of person you are doing what you do. But if you are aware - well we are aware of some things. Like we don't eat our neighbors. We don't go over and steal the neighbor's children and have them for dinner. We're aware of that. Right? That's not a good idea. Then as our awareness gets bigger you might say - well all those chickens piled one in a box in a barn - five thousand of them - they can't even move. And is that cruel? And what are we doing? Is that a good idea? And you start getting a moral awareness of that not being such a good idea. It's not nice for them.

Now if you start eating lots of chickens or decide to build one of those things for yourself because it's profitable. Suddenly you are going to pay a penalty for that because you know better. Once you know better - as you grow up - you need to act more moral as you become more moral.

No I don't think that people who eat meat are losing points in the evolution game unless they're aware that what it is they're doing as not being moral. Then if they do it anyway they are losing points in the evolution game. So part of it has to do with your level of awareness - what you understand. You need to different things as you grow up. And there is never anyway of going back. You can't unlearn something. You can't say, "Oh, I realize that's immoral but it tastes good!" Now suddenly you're being immoral and you know it. It's you and you're intent. You can't go back and say I didn't learn that. I don't want to know that is immoral. It's inconvenient. You can't do that. Now you're stuck. Now if you decide to something immoral and you know it's immoral - now you pay a penalty in the evolution game.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:26 am 
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Many people are perfectly healthy on a vegan diet. It depends upon how diligent you are about balancing what you eat.
And many more people get unhealthy on a vegan diet, no matter how much they try. Even though initially they might enjoy a health boost (due to giving up the slow poisons that pass as food in the standard diet), medium and long term (few years) their health suffers. I've seen enough examples of this. And they still kill as many if not more animals as their omnivore counterparts, only different ones.
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Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t55aFYWl_FI
:22:30 Lifestype choices - Veganism as a sign of increased consciousness?
Exactly, Tom repeats my point...many become vegans due to vegan propaganda masquerading as documentaries. If I become aware of abuse in a farm - which already is illegal thing - I quit eating from that producer (if that was the case) and alert the proper authorities. Quitting eating meat because of that is as illogical as quitting using smartphones because there was abuse at a phone factory in China, quitting using shoes because Nike (just as an example) used child labor in Vietnam or quitting eating tomatoes because of news slave labor is used in southern Italy to pick them.

If we were to press the moral argument further, then how could one justify flying? How many animals are killed by the aviation industry? Yet Tom seems to have no problem flying around the world. Just a few days ago I saw this: A Russian passenger plane has made an emergency landing in a cornfield near Moscow after striking a flock of birds. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49355236 At the end of the article it's mentioned that planes hitting birds is a common occurrence.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:47 am 
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Many people are perfectly healthy on a vegan diet. It depends upon how diligent you are about balancing what you eat.
And many more people get unhealthy on a vegan diet, no matter how much they try. Even though initially they might enjoy a health boost (due to giving up the slow poisons that pass as food in the standard diet), medium and long term (few years) their health suffers. I've seen enough examples of this. And they still kill as many if not more animals as their omnivore counterparts, only different ones.
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Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t55aFYWl_FI
:22:30 Lifestype choices - Veganism as a sign of increased consciousness?
Exactly, Tom repeats my point...many become vegans due to vegan propaganda masquerading as documentaries. If I become aware of abuse in a farm - which already is illegal thing - I quit eating from that producer (if that was the case) and alert the proper authorities. Quitting eating meat because of that is as illogical as quitting using smartphones because there was abuse at a phone factory in China, quitting using shoes because Nike (just as an example) used child labor in Vietnam or quitting eating tomatoes because of news slave labor is used in southern Italy to pick them.

If we were to press the moral argument further, then how could one justify flying? How many animals are killed by the aviation industry? Yet Tom seems to have no problem flying around the world. Just a few days ago I saw this: A Russian passenger plane has made an emergency landing in a cornfield near Moscow after striking a flock of birds. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49355236 At the end of the article it's mentioned that planes hitting birds is a common occurrence.
you just proved my point. people who choose to eat animal foods will deny and try to justify. plant based doctors being thin does not mean they are unhealthy.

the longest living populations (okinawans, vegetarian seventh day adventist) avoid animal foods and the most unhealthy (eskimo) eat almost entirely animal foods. the facts are just not on your side.

one thing people fail to realize is that avoiding animal foods is in no way a guarantee of a health diet. some days i eat junk, candy and skittles. all while being "vegan"

i completely agree a "vegan" diet is not necessarily healthy but it can be. a balanced whole foods plant based diet is what is healthy, which just happens to be vegan.

look at what our closest ancestors in the animal kingdom eat. bananas. occasionally they engage in cannibalism or eat a bug, but other than that they eat plants. when i see a living animal I am not tempted to go over to it and kill it with my hands and start eating it. i realize we can cook it to make it "safe" to eat.

consider Tom has access to Data. I have received data from the LCS about this topic as well. i would completely agree with his view. if your starving fine, but it is better to avoid.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:09 am 
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Don't misinterpret epidemiology on large groups of people (Okinawans etc) and try to apply it to individuals to justify your biases. There are a lot of factors beyond diet that all contribute to longevity (harsh living conditions, if you mention Eskimos, who btw, before being modernized, lived a long, healthy life (check Vilhjalmur Stefansson and earlier explorers). Also, see that Okinawans eat pork, and now the longest lived are the people in Hong Kong, who also consume (on average) the most meat. Not that I want to make a point with the above, just to show that your epidemiology is incorrect and selective). Another thing - since when is maximizing lifespan, no matter what it takes, the reason of being in this PMR? A combination of lifespan/healthspan is much more productive in my view...what's the point in reaching 85 if you're in a care facility with Alzheimer? (due either to slow poisoning with sugar/processed crap or to years of missing micronutrients in a restricted diet)
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consider Tom has access to Data. I have received data from the LCS about this topic as well. i would completely agree with his view. if your starving fine, but it is better to avoid.
Tom never mentioned this aspect as far as I'm aware. Even so, it's his or your interpretation of the data - it might be or it might not be correct. I read about channeled Erik talking on this subject, and he said, whatever works, people are different.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:52 am 
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And many more people get unhealthy on a vegan diet, no matter how much they try.
And your statistics for this?
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Tom repeats my point...many become vegans due to vegan propaganda masquerading as documentaries.
I suggest you listen to the Fireside Chat video I listed. Tom does not say that AT ALL!

In the end it is your choice. But you seem to go to great lengths to justify that you want to eat meat, even though there are alternatives in most societies now. A few birds killed by planes is nothing to the hundreds of thousands being slaughtered every day for food.

Tom also makes a moral argument which you do not address.

And this is an old discussion on the forum with nothing new to say.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:27 pm 
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And your statistics for this?
I'm not an academic whose work is to gather statistics. I know people, I've watched YouTube videos of former vegans, I've seen reports from former vegans. I've seen vegans who had a lot to lose by renouncing veganism (money wise and peace of mind because now they're attacked by the rest of the cult for 'not doing veganism right')

The moral argument is this: we're omnivores, we've evolved to and thrive when eating animals and animal foods. How much one needs depends on the person, age, activity and so on. To claim moral high ground by denying this reality is just virtue signalling.
The thing with birds and planes was just an example to show that there's much more than meets the eye when talking about veganism. Is not just a few birds...look at a chart of how many planes are in the air at any hour. Then think about all the indirect killing (pollution, and so on).
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But you seem to go to great lengths to justify that you want to eat meat, even though there are alternatives in most societies now.
Just like the alternatives that traditional societies got when modernized...processed foods made from flour sugar, oil, which ruined their health. You think the alternatives to meat and the flavored waters called 'milks' are any better for health or environment?
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And this is an old discussion on the forum with nothing new to say.
At least it's clarified that Tom doesn't advocate a vegan diet (direct answer to my questions). In a recent Fireside chat (the last one I believe) he was asked by a lady about reintroducing meat in her diet and in a long answer he said that different people have different protein/meat requirements. From some of the diet related threads here and cherry-picked answers on YouTube one might have gotten the wrong idea that MBT is about veganism.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:47 pm 
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I'm not an academic whose work is to gather statistics.
The problem being that you state an opinion as a fact. In history there are many cultures that had little access to meat and lived primarily on vegetation. India has the lowest rate of consuming animals of any other country. It is only in recent history and factory farming that eating meat in such regularity has been a dietary norm. And in that change has come heart disease and many other illnesses.

You still do not address the morality of killing animals because you like the taste of meat.


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