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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:23 am 
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Hi Tom, everyone :)

I finished your trilogy about a month ago tho couldn't log in earlier to post, as the login was broken. Harold has kindly reset it for me, so can finally post my thoughts.

What excellent books! Over the years I've read quite a bit of philosophy/theology/eastern mysticism, etc. But until quite recently I'd not found anything that'd give some straight forward awnsers, maybe the only title that recently came to hand was Bruce Moens 'afterlife-knowledge'. I don't know how you and the other memebers of this forum would rate it?

I'd never really considered I had much of an ego, tho thanks to your appraoch I've begun to address my little ivory tower (So to speak), pulling it down block by block ;) I'm also amazed/horrified by the garbage, stupid beliefs and all round junk that are walled up behind those stones. Some of those teady bears are damned hard to let go of! ;) Still, as a result of reading your books I'm taking the approach of being scientific as far as I can (More of a philosopher/observer to be honest), taking it one step at a time, and enjoying the journey/process.

The only thing additionally I could have asked for perhaps is that you could have included a bit more on what some of these places are like to visit, what you can do there? As an anology it'd be kinda like saying that Christopher Columbus came back from the new world, was asked what it was like, replied; "Well...There some land, sky, 'n'stuff...There's the boat, go see for yourself." I know that wasn't the premiss for the books, tho maybe it might help calm peoples fears about trying to do this...If you see what I mean? I might be completely wrong about this, given my somewhat little view perspective...Be interested to know your thoughts :)

But apart from that...I'd have to say this has to be the most important series of works in the last 500 years..Really! I mean it!!

Thanks again Tom, for all your hard work.

ATB,

Bee


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:40 am 
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Bee,

Having posted a link to answer a similar question just minutes ago, look at this link to System Aspects under Spiritual & Personal Growth. You will have to read it all to get all pertinent aspects. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2668

Actually Tom did basically say "There's the boat, go see for yourself." That is a major point of MBT. Experience it for yourself instead of 'believing' me and create your own Big TOE. And loosing your fear is a major aspect of this personal exploration.

Welcome to the cutting edge, these forums populated by fellow travelers in the Dark Sea of Awareness, so called by Don Juan Matus, the Nagual.

Ted Vollers


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:32 am 
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Bee,

Hello and welcome! It's lovely to hear that you have been able to apply what you got from the books so quickly. If you have a chance, perhaps you could indulge us with some stories about your endeavors.

Mojidoji


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:03 am 
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Bee: Christopher Columbus came back from the new world, was asked what it was like, replied; "Well...There some land, sky, 'n'stuff...There's the boat, go see for yourself."

Tom: I got the best laugh from that line - I love it -- what a great, if just a tad flawed, analogy. I know, it seems exactly like that -- I have heard it from many folks.

If you follow the link Ted offered in his post, you will see that there is a big difference between telling physical PMR folks about a new physical PMR place and telling physical PMR folks about a largely subjectively interpreted nonphysical place within the larger consciousness reality. The data one has access to in NPMR is "objective" and real as rocks, nevertheless, how one interprets that data is totally subjective. Most PMR residents come with such a large, complex, and unique overlay of beliefs, ego limitations, and lack of personal experience in the larger reality that they could not understand -- and then, worse, would misunderstand -- whatever you tried to tell them about NPMR and the larger reality. The problem is, these misunderstandings would create beliefs and expectations that would eventually generate barriers to their ability to find out for themselves or grow their consciousness. Big TOE dogma would begin to howl at the moon sowing the seeds of confusion and misinformation. It's that ol' "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" thing.

A counter analogy: Why aren't all boys and girls at the age of 5 given detailed descriptions of what it is like to be an adult? Wouldn't that be very valuable to them and help them grow up into productive adults? No doubt, they could just breeze through puberty without a bump and would study hard all through school if they just had enough information when they were five about what adulthood was like. That's my best most accurate analogy, from there I digress: What if it were 10 year olds -- any different? What if it were 16 year olds -- they are on the cusp of adulthood and desperately anxious to become adults --would a good description of adulthood make a big difference to their ability to expand their awareness, develop maturity and competence, and grow up? Oh surely they would get it with their orders of magnitude greater experience - do they not already know almost everything? Does this sound familiar? One last question and I will quit. How many 40 year olds still don't get it?

Some problems just don't have intellectual solutions. You just have to go there and do it. Exploring NPMR in a general/useful way and growing up in the larger reality (two sides of the same coin) is one of them.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:24 pm 
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Bee,

A similar question -- one evoking Lewis and Clack instead of Christopher Columbus popped up within a different thread ("Illustrating other PMRs and NPMRs") within this same topic ("How MBT affected me"). I referred them here since I answered this one first. Now I am referring you there because eventually (within about 3 or 4 posts) the question was asked by "quanta": "... well then, why not tell us about other PMRs -- we should be able to understand and relate to that". If you go to: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2795 you can read my answer to that question.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:53 am 
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Hi guys, :)

Thankyou for your welcomes and awnsers to my initial question.

Ted;
I've been reading the thread with great interest. Thanks for the link.

MojiDoji;
I suppose I've been working on own TOE of sorts for quite a while, tho my own approach has been far more convoluted, I just didn't want to go down the 'happy-clappy' mystics-guru route. Rather ironic really, considering I've spent time reading mystical works like the 'Interior castle'- Teresa of Ávila and the Dharmapada, etc. I did a training course with a lady called Betty Balcombe, who was/is a well known psychic, which set the ball rolling all those years ago. Anyway...About 4 years ago I came to the conclusion this world was not quite what it appeared to be, asked myself a direct question I wanted to know the 'truth' of all of this, no more goofing around. About an hour later I found myself at the AP website was reading what a guy called Frank Kepple had to say. For some reason what he was saying was making so much sense, to the point my head was just spinning. It really was spinning, felt a bit like reality was crashing in on itself. I suspected I was having a belief system crash, as I would later read in Bruce Moens book, tho I can't confirm it absolutely. Since then I've been working slowly toward gaining access to the non-physical, most of my experiences have been rather hap-hazard, even tho I'd been using the Monroe tapes, etc. Just the other night I had my first full on vibrations and exit sensation. Unfortunately the stupid mechanism that likes panicing in the background, when something unusual happens, kicked in and tripped the whole thing up.
I suppose to summerize all of this; I'm ready enough to stand at the plate(Baseball) and have started swinging. Looking forward to seeing the view from first base. :)

Tom;

Thanks for your replies :) No, not ganging up on you at all ;o) I only asked as I'm trying so very hard to understand the mechanics of subjective perception and experience. The thing that still bends my head out of shape is, for instance; Say we're at some NPMR locale I pick up what appears to me to be a rock and hand it to you, do you perceive it as a rock, or have I handed you a radish? I've heard it so many times now that errors in translation of subjective energy can creep in, so how can we agree on any level of ojectivity in NPMR? I suppose even here in the PMR learning lab our perception of anything is utimately subjective, since our own viewpoint is unique, coloured by beliefs/perceptual filters. Or are these errors in viewing NPMR a result of us forcing our PMR viewpoint on objects and events?

I think I need to have a lie down ;o)

ATB

Bee


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:04 am 
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I forgot to add...


Tom,

Thanks, I see what you say. Good analogy that. In hindsight it was a rather poor question. Maybe I should have asked are there commonly identifiable structures within the like of OS, for instance? I must add I'm not really interested in tales of daring do's, rather more interested in how OS is put together, for example, Since A/ OS is figuratively right next door; B/ when it's deemed (For what ever reason) I'm fit to start navigating OS It'd be helpfull to know where 'stuff' is. The last thing I'd want to happen on my first trip out(So to speak), is end up plopping into the equivalent of Dante's inferno, for example. I've heard that some parts of the BST's can be pretty unpleasant.

Thanks again,

Bee


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Bee: The thing that still bends my head out of shape is, for instance; Say we're at some NPMR locale I pick up what appears to me to be a rock and hand it to you, do you perceive it as a rock, or have I handed you a radish?

Tom: Your basic problem is thinking of NPMR as just a weird PMR with different rules. Its rules are so different that it is not like a PMR at all. Your habits of thinking force it to be more like a weird PMR in your mind and indeed make it seem more like a weird PMR when you go there because of the way you interpret your experiences [you must interpret all inputs (data collected in NPMR) in terms of the experience stored in your physical brain because you are projecting your awareness into NPMR from inside PMR - in this case, PMR is your base state]

There are no rocks or radishes in NPMR unless you use a rock or a radish as a metaphor for something you experience there. More generally, there is no stuff - except in your mind as a metaphor for (interpretation of) some data/energy exchange, or as you create them with your intent by habit or intentionally (like a chair to sit on, or a body to represent yourself or who you are talking to, or clothes).

Bee: I've heard it so many times now that errors in translation of subjective energy can creep in, so how can we agree on any level of objectivity in NPMR?

Tom: There is no objectivity that is like what we experience in PMR because the less constrained rule set of NPMR does not generate "objects". There is no meaning to the word "objectivity" if there are no objects. Objectivity requires a direct measurement and a direct measurement requires an object to measure. In your mind an object is a 3 dimensional thing with form and solidity (volume and mass). You have no sense of the term "object" except within a PMR context. If you do, please describe to me an object without using the 3-D PMR concepts of volume and mass or any artifacts of the PMR human senses (touch, sight, feel, smell, and sound). Can't do it? See what I mean when I say you are, out of habit, forcing your perception of NPMR to be just a weird version PMR.

For example, those same habits generate expectations about NPMR that make having an OOBE very difficult for most people. If it is not as they expect (as others have described it - actually interpreted it), then they believe that they must not be there. Before they can consider themselves successful, they must duplicate someone else's subjective experience - a subjective experience that is based on the experiencer's unique PMR experience set. That strategy works in an objective PMR (where other researchers must be able to reproduce the experiment) but it is a great source of confusion and frustration for those trying to experience NPMR. I do not wish to add to that difficulty. The lore of what the OOB reality looks like, and descriptions of the process of accessing it, and of of all the stuff that is there constitute just another set of belief traps (for you) that make it more difficult for you to explore the larger reality of consciousness on your own. That is not to say that these descriptions and processes are "wrong" or ineffective, but that they are limiting because they are not fundamental. Such descriptions also constitute a set of suggestions (called leading the witness in a legal forum) that often lead to your needing, creating or interpreting just such a thing. If enough people create similar metaphors, then it becomes an "object" or shared metaphor of group consciousness and thus takes on a "life of its own" independent of the individuals but dependent on the group. However, this similarity of metaphor is not always just a matter of leading the witness, but rather of NPMR explorers sharing similar cultures, thus sharing similar experiences, thus sharing similar metaphors and symbols. They are, after all, experiencing the same general thing, but just interpreting it into PMR language differently according to their own unique experience/understanding/belief set.

So, when you want to know what NPMR trees rocks, radishes, buildings, and beings look like, you are asking a meaningless question. If you want to know what I experience, I will (if I were willing to indulge your misguided curiosity) tell you the metaphors and symbols that I translated my experience in NPMR into so that I could communicate it to you. However, realize that I would be restricted to metaphors and symbols that are in my PMR brain (that are within my experience set) and to those that I think you would understand (that would also be in your experience set). To optimize our communication I would have to have some idea what was in your experience set - i.e., we would have to talk and get to know each other a bit. Yes indeed, People with larger experience sets can communicate what they experience more accurately, can define their experiences more precisely, but they can only do so with another who shares that larger experience set. They would only confuse and create beliefs in those who do not share their larger experience set - thus creating dysfunctional belief traps for these people.

Furthermore, if I did not understand that reality was a netted digital information system, I would share my metaphors and symbols with you as if I were describing an objective NPMR that I had experienced. I would tell you that it was difficult putting my experience into words; that our PMR concepts didn't really fit my experience very well, but that I was describing (interpreting) my experience as accurately as I could. And you and I both would take it all literally or roughly literally to account for my difficulty in finding the right words. In fact nothing you hear should be taken literally - it is all just metaphor and symbol for a data exchange experience that is likely to have absolutely NO -- that was a "NO and not even close" in case you missed it -- PMR analog. If an experience has no PMR analog, then how accurate and literal will the PMR metaphors be that describe it? How personal (dependent upon the individual's unique experience, beliefs, etc) will that description be? And what if that persons experience set is very limited relative to what he is experiencing?

Bee: I suppose even here in the PMR learning lab our perception of anything is ultimately subjective, since our own viewpoint is unique, colored by beliefs/perceptual filters.

Tom: Yes, exactly.
Bee: Or are these errors in viewing NPMR a result of us forcing our PMR viewpoint on objects and events?

Tom: Yes, exactly.

Bee: Maybe I should have asked are there commonly identifiable structures within the like of OS, .. It'd be helpful to know where 'stuff' is. The last thing I'd want to happen on my first trip out (So to speak), is end up plopping into the equivalent of Dante's inferno, for example.

Tom: There is no stuff. You will not pop up in the middle of someone else's metaphor. You will have to deal with whatever you encounter - same as here. Do not fear the unknown.

A thought experiment to develop perspective: Think of being in a dark quiet room without walls or gravity or the ability to move your body (total sensory isolation chamber) and only connected to the rest of the world by the internet. Now imagine you were born in that condition and so was everybody else (many millions) on the internet. What would you and your net friends (and enemies and persons barely known) eventually figure out and do with your time? What would you learn? What would be the objective nature of your reality? Or would it only be subjective. If subjective, how would you know the others were real? How close would that experience compare to walking around and interacting with others physically outside your isolation chamber room? And visa versa?
Would you and the gazillions of others eventually make a big multi-player game with a rule-set to provide structure that provided goals and challenges and interactive feedback. Wouldn't that be fun - my how the time would fly then. Would more than one game likely spring up on the net? Could you play more than one game at a time?

Yes, there are identifiable structures in NPMR - but not objects - not physical structures - that is a PMR thing - as is a personal virtual structure (interpretation) perceived by a PMR inhabitant's perception of NPMR.
There is a personal structure (you - your intent, your entropy) and there are information structures (databases and messages), and functional structures (causality and rules of interaction), and relationship structures (communication meaning and content). There are also virtual PMR structures (the PMRsubk). There is a multitude of each of these types of structures, and they are persistent, consistent, dependable, interactive and real - i.e., they are there, and the same, every time you look. In fact they are more fundamentally real than what we usually call real because they are the consciousness system - at least in our neighborhood. One gets to know and gain competence working with and using these structures as one becomes familiar and experienced with the actual fundamental nature of NPMR (as opposed to the jumble of published personal metaphors and symbols that now definite the nature of NPMR in the popular literature.) A small sense of interacting with the structures within NPMR can be glimpsed if you imagine what your existence would be like if you were blind and had no nerves in your skin, could speak and hear normally, and were gifted with telepathy -- what would your reality be like then?

I started the same way as you. I more or less reproduced the experiences of others -- I traveled the OOB reality of Monroe and others for years -- I do personally relate to what others report especially if our metaphors and symbols (knowledge and limitations) are similar enough (i.e., we come from similar cultures and thus have similar personal realities that produce roughly similar interpretations). I have experienced NPMR rather extensively from that extremely limited perspective -- the perspective you wish to achieve because you can imagine no other. I had been there and done that for many years before I more fully understood the true nature of the larger reality and realized that even though all of it was my personal, real experience of an extant larger reality, none of it was fundamental. Data, information is fundamental, as soon as we touch it with our interpretation, it becomes personal. Personal means subjective. Consciousness is subjective by its nature. One cannot build something that is fundamentally objective out of something that is fundamentally subjective. "Objective" is found only in multi-player virtual reality frames with rule sets that are sufficiently constrained to define an objective mutual "setting" (the game) within which its inhabitants interact to have experiences and exercise their intent.

This is just a glimpse that is slanted to answer your questions - probably not too eloquent and not detailed or complete. I hope it helps ease your confusion more than it creates more confusion - always a risk when one has this kind of conversation.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:39 am 
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Hi Tom,

Thankyou so much for your lengthy reply. I'll reply properly as soon as I can. I was out yesterday getting the motorbike fixed, am a bit behind...Glad to see there are a few fellow enthusiats here too, btw :)

All the best,

B



Tom;

So in any of the NP related events where I've experienced a visual component (For example), or a sense of being present in a given locale are merely an artifact...a translation of the underlying subjective energy/data exchange?

Actually that raises an interesting question. (Sorry if you've already said this in your books, I need to re-read them) Since we're all connected via the RWW, is all the data + perseptual sensory translation being generated locally within my total-selfs AUM chip/mind-space, such as in a MMP. i.e. each computer generates it own lanscape, etc with it's own graphics card and the vectors conserning states and position,etc, are beamed to an uber server called "Earth-Game.TM" ...Or are we (Total-selves)collectively a bunch of servers generating the "Earth-Game"...and there's no Uber-server at all? In moving about the RWW then...We're not moving at all, in a 3d sense..But connecting to a different total-self/ reality structure and generating a perceived sense travel instead?

Thanks again, sorry if I'm coming across as a bit dense

:)

B


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:01 pm 
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Re:
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:43 pm
Tom: Your basic problem is thinking of NPMR as just a weird PMR with different rules. Its rules are so different that it is not like a PMR at all. Your habits of thinking force it to be more like a weird PMR in your mind and indeed make it seem more like a weird PMR when you go there because of the way you interpret your experiences [you must interpret all inputs (data collected in NPMR) in terms of the experience stored in your physical brain because you are projecting your awareness into NPMR from inside PMR - in this case, PMR is your base state]

[etcetera]
----

This explanation ROCKS!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:56 pm 
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Bee: So in any of the NP related events where I've experienced a visual component (For example), or a sense of being present in a given locale are merely an artifact...a translation of the underlying subjective energy/data exchange?

Tom: Yes, that is the case, however remember that if the events experienced are very close to (or closely related to) the experience set that is in your physical head, then you will have the necessary metaphors and symbols (experience and memory) to make a very accurate translation. For example, if you are getting data from the historical or probable future database about something that you can easily imagine and comprehend in familiar terms, then what you get, if your transmission is relatively noise and ego free, should be reasonably accurate as far as the fundamental content goes - the details may still be your personal interpretation. You may also fill in details that are significant to your mental and emotional habits but missing from the original message. For example, you get information from a man in a green robe while in NPMR. If you were from a more primitive culture, the same man giving you the same information might be wearing a leopard skin or be a talking wolf; or from a less primitive culture he may not be a man at all, have no body at all, or be a spot of light. Same accurate information, with different irrelevant details that help the experience make sense within the context of your experience/belief/memory base.

Some more examples: In NPMR, you may see a very advanced being helping a group of people, while a more traditionally religious person would see the angel Gabriel doing and saying the same thing -- the angel Gabriel being a symbol or metaphor for a very advanced being within a religious context. You are out of body and go to your neighbor's house -- a house you have never been in -- You are getting data about the inside of the house and what the people are doing from the database. If what you see is easily interpretable within your context, you will probably be able to make an accurate description of the house's contents and of its inhabitant's actions. If there are things there that you do not have enough experience to interpret, they will seem nonexistent or foggy while the rest seemed clear. Sometimes you will come up with the closest approximation (pattern match) you can, or report that there were some strange things that you cannot put into words but that you have the feeling of them. Also, remember, your intent is what pulls out specific data from the database - if your intent is vague (I want to see what it looks like) the data you get will be vague (walls, furniture, layout of rooms, etc. containing few details).

People who do not understand the nature of reality think that you are either there, or you are not, and if you are there, you should be able to paint a high definition picture. They think NPMR is a spooky sixth sense connected to PMR or a nonphysical extension of PMR where all the dead people hang out. They have no idea. They can't fathom the inconsistency (from a PMR perspective) that you get some things right while missing others that appear to be just as obvious from a PMR viewpoint.

A strange and mysterious, business, this NPMR thing - not accurate and consistent enough to really be believable, yet with enough evidential successes that it can't be discounted. I am afraid that the psi uncertainty principle has ‘em right where it wants them. Enticed enough to encourage seekers to find answers, but with enough uncertainty and disbelief to keep our objective Western culture from turning into a high tech version of West African "Voodoo" land.

In fact experience in NPMR is perfectly consistent and understandable if you understand the fundamental nature of reality as a digital information consciousness system.

Bee: Actually that raises an interesting question. (Sorry if you've already said this in your books, I need to re-read them) Since we're all connected via the RWW, is all the data + perceptual sensory translation being generated locally within my total-selfs AUM chip/mind-space, such as in a MMP. i.e. each computer generates it own landscape, etc with it's own graphics card and the vectors concerning states and position, etc, are beamed to an uber server called "Earth-Game.TM" ...Or are we (Total-selves)collectively a bunch of servers generating the "Earth-Game"...and there's no Uber-server at all?

Tom: Both. There is an uber server called "Earth-Game.TM" that handles the games objective set and at the same time each of us create our own personal realities by our subjective interpretations of our interactions with that objective set.

Bee: In moving about the RWW then...We're not moving at all, in a 3d sense..But connecting to a different total-self/ reality structure and generating a perceived sense travel instead?

Tom: Yes, you've got it. Nothing is moving except information and even that motion is virtual, not physical. Motion as you understand it is an artifact of a 3D space and has nothing to do with consciousness. Read Ted's Post ["MBT and the Theoretical Basis of Quantum Mechanics" under the Physics topic] about the VRRE, and then scroll down to the last post on page 1 of that same thread. That will make it much clearer. If instead it creates a fog so dense you will wish you hadn't asked, come back and keep asking.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:57 am 
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Hi Tom,



Tom: Yes, that is the case, however remember that if the events experienced are very close to (or closely related
to) the experience set that is in your physical head, then you will have the necessary metaphors and symbols
(experience and memory) to make a very accurate translation. For example, if you are getting data from the
historical or probable future database about something that you can easily imagine and comprehend in familiar
terms, then what you get, if your transmission is relatively noise and ego free, should be reasonably accurate as
far as the fundamental content goes - the details may still be your personal interpretation. You may also fill in
details that are significant to your mental and emotional habits but missing from the original message. For
example, you get information from a man in a green robe while in NPMR. If you were from a more primitive culture,
the same man giving you the same information might be wearing a leopard skin or be a talking wolf; or from a less
primitive culture he may not be a man at all, have no body at all, or be a spot of light. Same accurate
information, with different irrelevant details that help the experience make sense within the context of your
experience/belief/memory base.

Some more examples: In NPMR, you may see a very advanced being helping a group of people, while a more
traditionally religious person would see the angel Gabriel doing and saying the same thing -- the angel Gabriel
being a symbol or metaphor for a very advanced being within a religious context. You are out of body and go to
your neighbor's house -- a house you have never been in -- You are getting data about the inside of the house and
what the people are doing from the database. If what you see is easily interpretable within your context, you will
probably be able to make an accurate description of the house's contents and of its inhabitant's actions. If there
are things there that you do not have enough experience to interpret, they will seem nonexistent or foggy while
the rest seemed clear. Sometimes you will come up with the closest approximation (pattern match) you can, or
report that there were some strange things that you cannot put into words but that you have the feeling of them.
Also, remember, your intent is what pulls out specific data from the database - if your intent is vague (I want to
see what it looks like) the data you get will be vague (walls, furniture, layout of rooms, etc. containing few
details).

Bee: That makes a lot of sense. If I find myself in a situation where I don't accept the imagery(such as talking
donkeys), is it possible to reject/manipulate the imagery to something that's more acceptable?
Within Frank Kepples model he claimed that it was possible to OOBE into what he called the RTZ (Real time zone),
essentially being able to travel around without his body, in the current time frame(Not historical database). So
if he went to a neibours house, went inside... Would the observable details of the interior be coming from his
direct observations, or would they be from the H-database?
Occasionally I get what could be described as 2d computer screen in my visual field, on the screen are a bunch of
folder icons, each with a thumbnail image inside it(The image is usually the same). From your description I can
only conclude that I'm accessing either the historical, or the probable future database? If I focus/choose one of
the folder/thumbnails it expands and fills my visual field. I must confess I've not gotten any further than that
as I loose focus at that point, end up back in the physical.

People who do not understand the nature of reality think that you are either there, or you are not, and if you are there, you should be able to paint a high definition picture. They think NPMR is a spooky sixth sense connected to PMR or a nonphysical extension of PMR where all the dead people hang out. They have no idea. They can't fathom the inconsistency (from a PMR perspective) that you get some things right while missing others that appear to be just as obvious from a PMR viewpoint.

A strange and mysterious, business, this NPMR thing - not accurate and consistent enough to really be believable,
yet with enough evidential successes that it can't be discounted. I am afraid that the psi uncertainty principle
has ‘em right where it wants them. Enticed enough to encourage seekers to find answers, but with enough
uncertainty and disbelief to keep our objective Western culture from turning into a high tech version of West
African "Voodoo" land.

In fact experience in NPMR is perfectly consistent and understandable if you understand the fundamental nature of
reality as a digital information consciousness system.

Bee: It's starting to feel a bit like one of those double blind/double bluff experiments, but with a bit of an
ironic twist :)


Tom: Yes, you've got it. Nothing is moving except information and even that motion is virtual, not physical.
Motion as you understand it is an artifact of a 3D space and has nothing to do with consciousness. Read Ted's Post
["MBT and the Theoretical Basis of Quantum Mechanics" under the Physics topic] about the VRRE, and then scroll
down to the last post on page 1 of that same thread. That will make it much clearer. If instead it creates a fog
so dense you will wish you hadn't asked, come back and keep asking.

Bee: Thanks Tom :) I've been reading the posts and the chapter from Ted's book(Absolutely fab, btw). I used to do
a bit of 3d drawing/design as a hobby for pc games, can pretty much follow it despite my Herman Munster approach
to Quantum mechanics. Just an awful lot of new information to take on board! Gulp!!

Bee


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Bee: That makes a lot of sense. If I find myself in a situation where I don't accept the imagery(such as talking donkeys), is it possible to reject/manipulate the imagery to something that's more acceptable?

Tom: Yes, most of the time it is -- because most of the time the donkey (an irrelevant part of the communication) is your own metaphor. Most NPMR residents have little interest or patience with what is superfluous to the communication but important to your personal habits and beliefs - that's your problem to deal with and out of their control. If a donkey is your best pattern match to the nature of what you are talking to - you may change its appearance but it will probably will still remind you of a donkey even if you make it look like aunt Sara.

Bee: Within Frank Kepples model he claimed that it was possible to OOBE into what he called the RTZ (Real time zone), essentially being able to travel around without his body, in the current time frame (Not historical database). So if he went to a neighbor's house, went inside... Would the observable details of the interior be coming from his direct observations, or would they be from the H-database?

Tom: Yes, from the historical database -- which begins just one DELTA-t after the present moment - not exactly old data. Whatever you perceive is "just data" - whether in PMR or NPMR -- remember you are consciousness experiencing a VR simulation transmitted to you with data (a mind imagining it has a body, not a body imagining it has a consciousness). To Frank, it would appear to be direct observation, Indeed, perhaps indistinguishable from a direct observation if the connection were clear enough and easily understandable -- exactly the same as whatever you are looking at this very moment. Both are simply receiving data in different reality frames. You travel in NPMR by switching your focus to different reality frames with your intent.

Bee: Occasionally I get what could be described as 2d computer screen in my visual field, on the screen are a bunch of folder icons, each with a thumbnail image inside it(The image is usually the same). From your description I can only conclude that I'm accessing either the historical, or the probable future database? If I focus/choose one of the folder/thumbnails it expands and fills my visual field. I must confess I've not gotten any further than that as I loose focus at that point, end up back in the physical.

The computer screen and folders are your own metaphor. Some folks have a selection of doors or tunnels to go through. Others, who have no need to experience the choosing process, just go.

TOM C


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:15 am 
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Too good not to bump!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:27 am 
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Quote:
Too good not to bump!
I got all excited, "Tom's posting, oh look Roland's back!" before I realized it was bumped...It is good information to touch with our interpretation to make it personal, so thanks Beau.
Love
Bette

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