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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:39 am 
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Hi Tom,

With a fortuitous connection & correspondence with Gerik, I was tweaked in your direction and I thank him for that.

I purchased the books from the site and have made it deep into Book 1.

Just a quick background...
I have had an awakening over the last 2 years ranging from eliminating processed foods to meditation, experiences etc etc. This spiritual path was dormant for about 17-18 years from when I first starting delving into Monroe and had experiences that included full blown conscious vibrations during meditation and an unprovoked nighttime intermittent OBE. Why I didn't pursue it, I cannot say. Life got in the way, maybe unconscious fear. But it was always a "splinter in my mind"

I have delved into Yogi Bhajan, Mantras,
Obviously, Monroe's full trilogy (purchased the Gateway program - currently working with them)
Read a ton of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, joined a Gurdjieff group
Self Enquiry/Atma Vichara trying to perceive that which is perceving
And read alot of other books

Nonetheless, and not to make this toooooo long an intro, since this awakening 2+ years ago I have had additional experiences, intermittent types, messages etc. I will save that for another time as I would appreciate any advice.

So here I am,
Increasing the Quality of consciousness, changing your being,

After reading in chapter 23 I am realizing how far I have come. Results are indeed very measurable to others, I guess I expect too much from myself.

Can u define Being for me in your words?
Gurdjieff speaks that in order to gain more knowledge your being must rise with your knowledge otherwise the knowledge attained is just words.
So How does one raise their being?
I have seen measurable results just from the will to grow consciously and spiritually. Does it just happen.
A Gurdjieff group leader said, to remember oneself or to become more conscious of oneself is something that is given to you. So its more of a passive note, To be more of a receiver? he also says its a 'how to' question. We don't know how to do it. ?

You said, no external practice, no activity will DO it for you. No one can give you enlightenment.
Becoming more conscious, loving, understanding, meditating, not expressing negative emotions, not internally considering, reducing ego, being aware of involuntary tensions, changing your perception, lowering entropy, plugging leaks etc etc. I am always in pursuit of fundamental internal change, things I am trying to DO. When I am aware.

BUT, these are things to DO. If changing the quality of your being(and the quality of your consciousness) has nothing to do with what you do and all about what you are. SO to change what you are? How is that accomplished without doing? But I have? I guess?....

Many things in the book resonate with me. You speak to my heart and your approach is amazingly straightforward. I have shed many belief traps so I stand here with an openmind.
I am tired of the spooky esoteric talk, the secretive knowledge groups, the talking in circles. In my group, granted it has not been long, I feel I am stagnant and given the approach, it will take forever at this pace to achieve what I set out to know by joining.

So I have come full circle to my original influence - Monroe
I get it, I don't need anyone. I have to do it. No one can give it to me. I'M Trying!
I want to Know, Not believe. I want to understand for myself and experience the larger reality but in a fully conscious, not hazy or groggy or intermittent state.

So I have tasted pudding, dipped into many springs which appear to be drinking from the same source.
Mantras, Monroe's cd's, sitting quietly focusing on myself(the witness), meditating focusing on my heart beat, void meditation. I don't know which approach to take or who's system to use. I have had experiences with all of the above.
Help.....
I know it may sound like I am pushing too hard, trying to move too fast, but I have slowed down dramatically over the past 6 months. I have waited a month to post this until I got and have read a decent portion of MBT.
This may be the typical westerner 'HOW TO' question post.

Maybe it should be a more passive approach along with the will to grow, I am sure you were very excited and motivated back in the Labs in the 70's. No different than How I may feel. Well, you were really motivated. PUSHING HARD!

I feel fortunate to be able to converse with you in this environment(thank you for creating it), it is comparable to being able to speak with Bob Monroe himself.

I am grateful for your response

I will obviously keep reading......

Regards,

OM


Last edited by ObjectiveMind on Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:46 pm 
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OM,

Welcome aboard the MBT journey into inner space -- we are a bit unstructured here and lothe to sanctify process and tools into dogma.

Much of what you ask about will be presented to you within the trilogy as you continue reading. It is wise to read MBT first, then read these forums, by then you will have an entirely different set of questions. Then become a power poster. Though this may seem like a painfully slow process, it is actually the most efficient.

It is not that doing is useless, but that it is insufficient by itself. Doing is an external function while growth is an internal function. Doing can lead to growth but no form of doing necessarily leads to growth. In other words, doing cannot force growth upon you - more that just doing is required.

What should you do? There is no one answer to that question because what helps and does not help you is entirely individual -- i.e., it depends on you. And you, if you are growing, are a dynamic entity. What works best for you now may not work best for you tomorrow. Consequently, use your intuition and approach everything as an experimentalist. Use what works, discard what doesn't. Continued steady effort coupled to open minded skepticism that follows your intuition is the answer.

A being is what you are. Being is what a being does when it does nothing but exist. Growing your being is growing (evolving) the quality of your consciousness - redefining yourself into a lower entropy form. When you are told that "you have to be it" instead of just understanding it intellectually (e.g., you must be fearless) this means that you must change the nature of what and who you are so that the new changed being (new you) is a complete and total embodiment of that characteristic (e.g., you become totally fearless as opposed to just acting fearlessly).

Tom C


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Sometimes. If "faking it" is part of a process leading to "making it", then there is value in it, often this is the case if the faking is only temporary -- but there is risk. If "faking it" never leads toward "making it", then there is negative value in it -- you will become cynical, self-righteous, and worse off than you were before you started faking it.

Of course faking it may make you less annoying to others, at least until cynical and self-righteous sets in -- but in the end it is a net loss.

Tom


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Hi Tom

Well, I am quite excited and looking forward as I pass Chapter 23. Because I already know some of what is coming and I am looking forward to the insights and different perspectives on things that I think I know.
Sometimes a tweaking is all that is needed to see.

With all the books I have read on these related topics, I didn't think I would feel this excited, not since I first read Monroe.
What I do know is that the format in which its coming is not hidden or in riddled terms. Its there to understand if you can.


SO you have to 'be' 'IT'. My being has changed dramatically over the past 2 years when I compare where I was to where I am. It just happened. Looking back, the being and the doing seemed to go hand in hand like a ladder being constructed step by step. A little doing, a little being all the way to this point.

So now I am here at this point.
Using your example, acting fearless as opposed to being fearless are still two completely different worlds apart. As you said, spending enough time with someone is all that one needs to know to determine who is a fake and who is not. I have had disappointing experiences when I thought teachers were more than they turned out to be, often quite quickly. When that happens I tend to 2nd guess myself, but I have to go with my intuition and feeling. If it isn't feeling right it just isn't right for you

In essence, I think what you are saying is, correct me if i am wrong, if you are going to talk the talk to ' myself ' I need to start walking the walk in all facets of this evolution of myself. No excuses, no veering off, steadfast to the principles of love, fearlessness and lower entropy in all facets and everything that it entails.

In the end, then, isn't it just a choice of will ? To be that....
I made the choice already.
The battle within has been on and is ongoing......
A choice and then a battle with Ego to break these chains of beliefs, habits, fears, selfishness, negative emotions etc etc

So it is an evolution of change that creates resistance that promotes a battle at the same time
no different than a type of movement in a country that encounters resistance to the point of a battle for a new order?

just because it appears to be a simple concept, it doesn't mean that it is easy.


OM


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:42 pm 
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OM: just because it appears to be a simple concept, it doesn't mean that it is easy.

TOM: That's for sure! I think most on this forum might call that an understatement. its not only not easy -- often it's exceedingly difficult to find that ego and those beliefs much less fearlessly pull them up by the roots.

I think you are going to enjoy the next couple of months of discovery and synthesis.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:22 pm 
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Tom,

"remember that what you are trying to do without trying is to not do."

I think that says it all. Ok u tweaked me..... I get it.

After finishing Ch 23, I feel a sense of ease. I need to grab a technique and go with it. I may have been too fragmented since I have used a multiple of techniques unsure which is right.

The thing is, I have had experiences using all my techniques....

Using a mantra, after maybe 30-40 min I encountered a shifting, my mind became larger and more vast, quiet, still and peaceful. All while in the background I could hear the mantra going on by itself without me. This state didnt last long because my kids woke up and I lost the state.

I have become more proficient in controlling my thoughts due to atma vichara/focusing on myself here now.
So at times,
sitting or laying quietly only focusing on myself (perceiving the witness) and trying to keep a state of no thought. This is more difficult but it created a similar state and that resulted in seeing my thoughts just passing by and then encountering messages and correspondence.

Using the gateway Cd's, I noticed a shifting, a pulling, a change in my breath and movement of other than my body and sensation where I was just existing at a point and nothing else mattered, I was free....... until Bob's voice came back on and pulled me out of it. Maybe I should use a Hemisync with only sound and no Bob?

Another thing that probably has interfered is my anticipation of separation and/or the paralysis with an immediate onset of the full vibrations while fully conscious as I originally encountered 17-18 yrs ago.

>>>> Aside - Back then I just layed down focusing on my pulsing and heartbeat and that led to a deep relaxed state that clicked me out and then back in again to a paralyzed state and then an immediate onset of full vibrations. My heart was beating at an incredibly fast speed which prompted me to break out of the state since I thought I might have a heart attack. Is that technique ok to use again? Is it safe? Make that Technique 4? I did that twice 18 yrs ago, 2 attempts, same result. 2 for 2<<<<<

I am going to let that anticipation go and just do without trying to do, huh?, no expectations. The increase in meditation frequency will be good. twice a day. I will stick to it. I have been too fragmented, time to hunker down, I will have to find the time.

A little tweaking and guidance at the right point can be quite valuable. Ch 23 came at the right time.

I know in your book u suggest the mantra method to use. Given my experiences in the above 3 or 4 techniques which would you recommend.

I know, I know.... its up to me to choose, what is best for me is not for you to say. Try them all individually, longer term, be a scientist, experiment and find out for yourself which brings the best results.
Saved u a few types sentences, huh?

: ) But really give me your opinion on them, especially about the rapid heart beat case

OM


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:53 am 
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OM: My heart was beating at an incredibly fast speed which prompted me to break out of the state since I thought I might have a heart attack. Is that technique ok to use again? Is it safe?

Tom: It is safe.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Tom,

You speak about Hemisync as training wheels etc, wouldnt mantra be similar? Explain....

--- Given my experiences with all the techniques I mentioned,
which technique would be my most efficient option for use of my time and energy and long run results?
I want to make sure I am utilizing my energy and time to maximum value

Please, Re-read my previous post to see the techniques I used, if need be.

Thanks
OM


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:36 pm 
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OM,

That is true -- when the mantra becomes superfluous, it should be discarded like training wheels -- when your ability is sufficiently developed -- otherwise it will just slow you down if you cling to it out of habit after you no longer need it. However, Hemi-sync is different. Hemi sync forces (nudges) you into a particular altered state and locks you in to that state. It is great when it puts you into a productive altered state that you cannot achieve on your own -- it's a problem when it locks you in and thwarts your ability to go beyond where the hemi-sync can take you.

You are a unique individual with a unique brain, consciousness, and intent -- you are perfectly competent to develop your own path -- in fact you MUST develop your own path, there is no other effective way. Learning to meditate is a little like learning how to type 75 words per minute with no errors. Not starting because you are not yet sure you have found the optimal, most efficient keyboard to begin practicing on is not the most direct route to success. Getting someone else to tell you what keyboard you should use is not very helpful either because preferences are personal. Once you get up to 60 words per minute (which can be readily done on any keyboard) and have some experience with different keyboards -- then is the time to start looking for a keyboard that matches your unique personal typing style.

Focusing on breath, a mantra, or a visual object are all fundamentally the same -- or use hemi-sync. Experiment, use what works, then experiment some more. What works best may change as you change. Avoid habits -- learn to meditate under various conditions and environments (standing, sitting, lying down, walking, in a quiet place, or in a noisy crowd). Start with what is simple and easy for you -- get very good at it -- then try new things (like meditating while standing in a crowded room) - again, practice until you get very good at it -- then go on -- slowly get rid of habitual and belief based barriers one at a time. Eventually the meditation technique itself will become a barrier.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Tom,

Even the easiest how to questions are not easily answerable.

I just figured that if I can and have been able to get no thought states(though more difficult) with experiences without Mantras or Hemi sync which appears (correct me if I am wrong) to be the most efficient and best long term strategy to use given the fact that the latter forms are sort of crutches to be discarded eventually. That was the question I wanted your opinion on. Am I wrong to assume that?

On another point,
Nothing stays stagnant. Either you are evolving or devolving.
You said all consciousness evolves toward profitability and lower entropy. How do you explain those that are moving in the wrong direction. Take your pick in society, health care, systems rewarding poor results and oppressing good results or movements, majority of society appear to be moving toward chaos, watching too much tv, eating poor diets, obsessing about sports, sex, the need for greed, money, power, materiality etc etc ect. That seems to be a devolving state of affairs and moving away from lower entropy at a rapid pace as opposed to moving toward profitability.

Regarding 'the Dark side' Are there restraints against those that evolve and attain knowledge for use in selfish, destructive purposes and like endeavors both in PMR and or in NPMR. Can those forces lower their entropy to attain these selfish goals? isn't that counter to the laws? And if so able, is their power limited as opposed to those evolving for the side of 'light' (for lack of a better term).

Thanks
OM


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:46 pm 
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OM,

If you can get to and maintain an altered state where you are point consciousness in the void (no thoughts, no distractions or awareness of PMR) then you don't need any meditation process -- you just jumped to the endpoint without the process. Either enjow a nice float in the void or harness your intent and do whatever.

As you say: Either you are evolving or devolving.
In Book 2, Chapters 8 and 9 you will find a discussion of this subject. Here is a short summary:
Consciousness evolving in the positive direction, evolves toward states that produce individual profitability and lower entropy, as well as generate profitability and lower entropy for the larger consciousness system - creating internal and external balance. On the other hand, consciousness evolving in the negative direction evolves toward states that produce a limited individual profitability and lower entropy, while generating higher entropy and chaos for the larger consciousness system. By total control of self (controlling their personal energy) and by control of everything external to them that can be controlled, they are able to create an unstable approximation of internal balance while throwing the larger consciousness system out of balance. The potential of negative beings is very much constrained. Control, driven by desire and need, is a desperate and self-limiting attempt by the disenfranchised effete to appear powerful. Control is, and always has been, a poor substitute for love.
AUM is dim consciousness evolved into brilliant love-consciousness - which is how positive consciousness naturally evolves. The negative intent consciousness critters and beings (evil) can evolve only toward power-control-force. That is as far as evil can go - i.e., the establishment of an inherently unstable (self destructive) external network of fear bound together by power-control-force. Minimizing entropy by growing or evolving in the negative direction is extremely limited and relatively worthless compared to the advantages gained by a consciousness evolving positively toward the expression of itself as love. In PMR, power-control-force is a way of life - a primary motivator. That fact should tell you there is much low quality consciousness, negativity, and evil running loose in our local reality.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Tom, any idea of the ratio of 'good' to 'evil' in this PMR? Speaking of ratio's, in a Sitchin book, When Time Began, I believe, the ratio of 10:6 was mentioned for the difference between earth time and cosmic time. That made me think of PMR and NPMR delta t's, any connection in ratio?
Thank you, as always, in advance.
Love to you and yours
Bette

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what is?
Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:32 am 
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All,

Compare Tom's description:
"The negative intent consciousness critters and beings (evil) can evolve only toward power-control-force. That is as far as evil can go - i.e., the establishment of an inherently unstable (self destructive) external network of fear bound together by power-control-force. Minimizing entropy by growing or evolving in the negative direction is extremely limited and relatively worthless compared to the advantages gained by a consciousness evolving positively toward the expression of itself as love."
to the reality created in Hitler's Germany, the so called Third Reich. Was it not clearly an "external network of fear bound together by power-control-force" which was "inherently unstable (self destructive)"? Child spied upon and reported on parents, neighbor upon neighbor, with a general network for control of everyone by fear.

In PMR of the present, social control by power-control-force is generally less blatant worldwide, but the network of fear exists for social control. It generates fear of class versus class, "race" versus "race", country versus country, clan or tribe versus clan or tribe and religion versus religion. This fear generates actions that justify further fear. An endless cycle of revenge. Control of education creates citizenry that have limited, controlled and manipulable view points and limited capabilities to work their way out of them by taking thought and developing understanding. Control of information, "news" as concepts and it's dissemination, creates limited understanding within an easily manipulated population limited already by biased, controlled education. Concepts of the "consumer society" and "normal" social behavior drive the actions of the populace towards whatever sales goals are best presented in the marketplace and constantly presented by the entertainment industry in a distorted picture of proper behavior and human interaction.

Control of the citizenry is subtly established throughout the economic chain. If you are not ever mindful of your responsibilities towards maintaining your credit rating by correct living, you will be punished exponentially. From those who have least, will be taken away most for the necessities of living. Acceptance for housing, purchase or rental, costs more or is unavailable, except for government largess, for those with lower credit scores. Access to privately owned transportation, a personal car and insurance required to make use of it, is substantially more expensive for those with lower credit scores. Even the food on your grocery store shelves is much more expensive for those forced by their economic status and housing limitations to purchase in smaller amounts versus the 'giant economy size'. All together, this network of enforcement generates a continually stratifying society with the masses controlled by the manipulations of those elites that control education, information, production/distribution and finances. There is an ever shrinking level of 'middle managers' between the controlling elites and the masses being controlled. And the blatancy of the elites is being presently demonstrated in the manipulation of the distribution and use of 'bailout' funds in the present economic emergency.

And this enforcement by society punishes most severely those who are least able to deal with it. Those susceptible to addictions or intellectually or neurologically handicapped are quickly placed in the lowest levels of the underclass. Those economically deprived are shunted into further economic deprivation. Those most subject to manipulation are led into attitudes and behaviors that generate handicaps in education and economic well being that continue to have effects throughout their lives and condemn them to remain within or sink into lower social strata. Society as presently set up enforces these results. Only at an individual level can interactions take place, based on a selfless/spiritual love, that can enable deprived individuals to see and then work their own way out of this morass of bad intentions.

And ending this social cycle of control is not going to result from the present 'change' of governmental administration here in the US. The tribe in control has merely been switched for another, intent on getting it's own back, grabbing it's own share of the 'pork barrel' while the grabbing is good, revenging it's own perceived slights and deprivations. We continue to have 'the best government that money can buy' and money continues to buy what it wants. As Meister Eckhart said, "The world order is based upon a lie." The Third Reich's concept of efficiency still rules rather than the recognition that our gains are based upon what we do with our 'human capital' rather than our economic capital. Fortunately, the greater system, AUM, The One Consciousness, is based upon this concept and includes the entropy reduction mechanism. This, PMR, is a virtual reality that is here for the purpose of demonstrating this situation and teaching us how to recognize and deal with it. To learn proper interactions, individuated being to individuated being.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:04 am 
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Tom:If you can get to and maintain an altered state where you are point consciousness in the void (no thoughts, no distractions or awareness of PMR) then you don't need any meditation process -- you just jumped to the endpoint without the process. Either enjow a nice float in the void or harness your intent and do whatever.

OM: I was able to get to that point one time just focusing on myself for an extended period. It has been mentioned to me as a void meditation. I received messages, saw my thoughts passing by separate from myself. It was not as powerful, quiet and vast as the shift I experienced during a mantra meditation even though it didnt last very long. I guess that void meditation was a crude form of what you have called the endpoint. Is it ok if I utilize one or more methods alternatively as I feel whether daily, weekly etc. Will that hinder anything or cause conflicting or confusing results/data/growth?

AUO..
I am still in book one in the 200's discussing AUO.
It is sounding a lot like the 'Loosh' Monroe talks about in Far Journeys or what Gurdjieff says that we are like fertilizer.

So This is all a Virtual school designed to lower entropy, but PMR, so far, has been raising entropy in one fashion, lowering entropy in another fashion, all the while creating a conglomerate of less and less self awareness throughout the populace(although there is movement within that mess of a growing awareness). A Crazy combination, heading for its ruin I presume whether its the third Reich, an angry mob or our new transfer of power in the whitehouse, just a change in the face of the Power-control-force theory.

How does one of the " Light " attain or achieve 'superiority' or maybe a better term is immunity or ' imperviousness ' of the power-control-force (imperviousness- is that a word ?, it might fit this description though) in this PMR reality? A real kind of 'you have no power here' response to the " Dark's " attempt at approaching your being, a walking light that is able to deter,dissolve and or even transform that influence in front of it. I guess what I am alluding to is the Acquisition of special powers beyond the ability to be able to live in heaven within oneself even as hell is all around you. The ability to really 'do' in a selfless action, if need be, for the greater good at the moment in time that it may be required (mind control, telepathy, psychokinesis, telekinesis etc etc ect.


OM


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:28 am 
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OM,

Think about what you are asking for. Are you not asking for control? This is a VR experience to be learned from, not a battle to be won by letting the 'dark side' slip in while you believe that you are battling the 'dark side'. A fight to be fought, yes. But not winnable by the very methods of control. As Tom describes, not a matter of control versus control but unbounded love versus control.

Ted


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