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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:11 am 
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Hello Thomas,

I have just read the first book (awakening) and found it exceedingly interesting. The chapters explaining open minded skepticism felt just as if they were written for me. I have gone through the hassle of trying to explain many people what the OOBE phenomenum is about, just to find that they would absolutely neglect the possibility of its existence as a real non-hallucinatory phenomenum (scientific dogma plus fear coming into action in order to maintain a stable belief system). I wouldn't like to sound like one of those people who have fallen deep into the pool of blind scientism, but, with an attitude of open minded skepticism, I have been looking, from my limited point of view, for some potential flaws in some of your explanations. I would like to discuss some of them:

1) In some youtube radio interview you say that, when you were at the Monroe Institute, you and other people would run hundreds of verifications in which someone would write down a number on a blackboard while someone else would get out of his body in another room, went to the blackboard (non-physically), read the number, returned back to his physical body, reported back and successfully matched the number written on the blackboard. However, in another video you say that there's a lack of ESP scientific OBJECTIVE evidence because you can only get SUBJECTIVE evidence (or something like that). However, a few experiments in which someone would get out of his body and read numbers written in a blackboard in a near room would give OBJECTIVE scientific proof of ESP... but there's not such a proof! If you and others have run successful verifications like this by the hundreds, why isn't there even one peer-reviewed scientific journal showing this evidence?

2) Moreover, if objective evidence like this (getting out-of-body, reading a number on a blackboard, returning, reporting and repeating this loop several times with different numbers) is possible, why hasn't ANYONE been able to give James Randi this kind of verification and thus won the million dollars?
James Randi has been offering a million dollars to ANYONE who can prove under controlled conditions that he or she has ESP capabilities. However, years and years have gone by since he offered such a prize and ABSOLUTELY NOBODY has been able to give realiable proof. Everybody who showed up wasn't able to show any kind of realiable evidence about the existence of ESP. However, it would be as easy as someone proficient in OOBE doing the "blackboard verification" you successfully repeated hundreds of times at the Monroe Institute. That would prove beyond reasonable doubt that there's some kind of ESP going on. However, absolutely NOBODY has been able to shown Randi anything remotely as successful as that. What's going on? I want ESP and OOBE to be possible, but I cannot help but wonder why, if these phenomena are real, the Randi million dollar prize remains with Randi throughout the years, without anyone being able to show him a single iota of ESP evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi

3) Future travel. The closer to the present moment it is, the higher the chance to hit the nail on the head. All right, then if I had the ability to go to NPMR and exploring the future, I could decide to watch the very near future of some hours afterwards and see what JackPot lottery numbers are the winner. I could go wrong once, twice or three times, okay, but after trying just a few days I should be able to hit the nail on the head without too much inconvenience and become a millionaire at PMR. Thomas, are you going to tell me that, given your extremely well developed skills to move through NPMR and exploring the future, you are not winning some big jackpots just because you don't care for PMR so much anymore and, therefore, winning PMR millions of dollars is not something you'd like to accomplish?

I hope my questions are not too annoying, but please understand that my open minded skepticism approach leads me to look for this kind of verification and that the fact that they are dismissed with a "that kind of evidence cannot be provided", when somewhere else it is said that hundreds of experiments like those were successful, makes me think "this is strange, I don't know what to think about this".


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:06 am 
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quamta,

Question 3 has already been discussed on these forums, including Tom's comments. See:
Philosophy/Metaphysics: If you're psychic why haven't you won the lottery?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2624

Someone will have to get back to you later about parts 1 and 2 of your questions as I am not familiar with the specifics you ask abouts. We may have to wait for Tom to have time if no one else can give answers now. As a start I would guess that regarding question 1, the early work done at the Monroe Institute was largely preliminary and exploratory work. Much of this was being done to convince Monroe himself that it was real. Furthermore, his intent was furthering his own personal explorations and investigations and also with the intent of creating a marketable product, the Hemi-sync system. This is likely to have marginalized the things that you are concerned about in their thinking. To paraphrase the old joke, the chicken's purposes in crossing the road were the chicken's and not necessarily of any consequence to others. Tom has mentioned fairly recently on these forums the problem of finding records from this period as they were not recorded or stored with the purpose of later access, tapes may have decayed, etc. This was done long before everyone had a high performance personal computer sitting on their desk. These records are also the property of the Monroe Institute and they may not have the interest in expending the effort required to do what you are talking about. Others may well feel that this is already proven, especially if they have personal experience to judge from. That is a major aspect of Tom's (and my) attitude as expressed here and in MBT as I understand it: explore yourself and figure it out yourself as the only way to really prove anything since the nature of reality based on mind is as it is. What you really know within your own mind is what matters. Not intellectual understandings of what others have said or done.

Ted Vollers


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:52 pm 
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Thank you for your reply, Ted.

My point was not that of trying to get the Monroe Institute to find and/or show us those data, since there would still be no guarantee whatsoever that the Monroe Institute itself didn't have vested interests in making up some of those data to make them appear real. I am not saying or implying that the Monroe Institute has any intention whatsoever of lying. What I am trying to say is that that wouldn't be the correct procedure in order to look for evidence that demonstrates ESP. The correct way would be having someone apply for James Randi's million dollar challenge and show ESP skills adhering to the scientific method rules Randi himself asks the participants to follow.

Either that or showing those same skills in a controlled peer-reviewed scientific study. Here, I am referring to scientific/medical journals non-affiliated with parapsychological journals, since the latter might be biased by the belief system framework in which they take place (okay, you might tell me now that other peer-reviewed scientic journals might be biased by a belief system called scientism, and I guess that you might be right).

If thirty-five years ago there were people like Thomas and others that could show ESP skills in hundreds of tests, I don't see why right now some of them, or somebody else, couldn't show those same skills, but in a Randi challenge or in a peer-reviewed study and not within the Monroe Institute (or any other parapsychological institute) framework. We are told to question and ask for evidence, and never to fall in any belief trap if we haven't previously tested and re-tested it; this is the reason why I think it is my duty to speak about these issues and question things like these... so that both my knowledge and everybody else's knowledge can be raised to a new level of understanding and Big Truth. Now, as I taste the pudding, I have to say that the lack of scientific evidence I am perceiving as far as ESP is concerned isn't and cannot be made up for with arguments such as "the fact that there isn't anyone with psi abilities showing them either to Randi or in a peer-reviewed scientific study is because ALL those people with those skills only need to prove them to themselves and, once they have done so, ALL of them lose interest to the point of not being interested in participating in any serious peer-reviewed study or even winning the Randi million dollar challenge; that's why you haven't (and won't) seen NONE of them providing that kind of evidence".

At this point, many people could tell me that the kind of evidence I am looking for is impossible to get, since "you cannot understand the super-set in terms of the sub-set". That is, you cannot bring to PMR objective proof of the existence of NPMR. Okay, I completely agree with that. But the kind of evidence I am looking for IS NOT that kind of evidence. I am not asking anyone to prove the existence of NPMR. Quite the contrary, what I am looking for is evidence showing that ESP exists within PMR and that can be shown and demostrated following a strict scientific protocol, because all we (me and other open minded skeptics) are asking for is someone retrieving information from PMR and moving it within PMR; we are not asking anyone to go from PMR to NPMR and bring back proof into PMR. That's not the case.


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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 3:39 pm 
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Quamta,

I completely understand why you are skeptical and Tom would probably cheer you on for that. If you haven't read it yet, there is a chapter in MBT dealing with what Tom calls the psi uncertainty principle (PUP). This seems to explain why so many of the "credible" scientific studies fail and yet so many people have individual experiences of a paranormal nature.
Basically, the PUP is part of the PMR rule-set that limits psi phenomena. This is to preserve the integrity of the PMR learning lab.
PMR constrains the interactions of individuated units of consciousness to facilitate growth through these interactions. Another way of looking at it, is would you want your spouse or significant other to know what you were thinking at all times?
The PUP seems to be more strict when the results would affect a larger number of people. Individuals are more likely to have access to psi when it's of a more personal nature affecting them or a few people only.
I agree that you should check out Tom's and Ted's comments on the post that Ted mentioned in his reply to you. That was very helpful to me as well. Glad to have you here.

Ramon


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Quanta,

You ask good questions. Raymond and Ted were both right on in their comments. Follow them up.

I believe that what I said (or at least intended to say) was that we (early explorers at Monroe labs) did hundreds of evidential tests, one of which was reading numbers from a blackboard in another room. Experiments involving the reading of numbers that were written on the board or describing pictures being looked at by the person in the control room were done successfully many times but also were two of the most problematical of the tests we performed. We would be startlingly correct sometimes (one chance in several million of succeeding with a random guess) and oddly off other times (report seeing a number that was the target number divided by two or with each digit shifted by a constant), and flat out wrong other times. Practice didn't seem to improve the situation very much. There seemed to be something inhibiting the process -- something intentional -- sometimes even with a twist of humor or irony. It was from these experiences and later corroborating research that I began to formulate the psi uncertainty principle to make sense out of the data collected. That certain types of data are problematical had a certain consistency to it that eventually led to a general understanding of why that was so.

There are also several pages in MBT that discuss why psi research is often problematical. There are research results with strong scientific protocols that evidence psi. Duke did Psi research for decades with some clear results. I mention several books in MBT that will provide both scientific data and further references. To prove that it is possible for a bird to fly, one only needs to scientifically demonstrate one bird flying one time. The rest is only about prying egos away from their belief traps. The hard scientific evidence of psi is almost as common as birds flying; however, prying egos away from their beloved belief traps must occur one individual at a time. A high quality scientific report on psi has little effect beyond those who did the research. After you have read all three MBT books and made some effort to access the scientific evidence that is available -- if you are still interested -- bring it back up and we will talk some more.

Randi's Challenge is political theater, no more. Consciousness evolution is personal. If you want to know the truth, then find out for yourself. I understand, you see what appears to be an inconsistency -- a logical hole. Fact is, that hole is merely an artifact of your beliefs and limited understanding - but you will have to grow some to see it. Always remain skeptical, but don't let your skepticism prevent you from exploring the truth. That is why skepticism and open-mindedness must travel together.

Tom


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Quanta,

It was getting late so I cut the above reply short. Here is the rest of it.

The problem is a belief that artifacts of the larger reality (e.g., paranormal events) that occur within PMR must follow a simplistic PMR causality. However, artifacts of the larger reality follow only the causality of the larger consciousness system. Imposing PMR causality on NPMR is to believe (or assume out of habit - basically the same thing) that the tiny subsystem is actually the super-system. Those who think that PMR is all there is and those who are ignorant of the mechanics of the larger reality (almost everyone) and who habitually think in terms of PMR constructs (almost everyone) have a tendency to believe that performing a paranormal act is like picking up a rock - either you can do it or you can't - it's a 1 or a 0 - a simple test is all that is required. Picking up a rock represents a PMR causality construct.

Here is an imperfect analogy but it may help you understand what I am trying to communicate. Medical Doctors rightfully say that they can heal people (do things that cause sick people to become well). Imagine a person who goes to a doctor and says: "Heal me. If you cannot heal me, that will prove that you are a quack - that you do not have the ability to heal. I mean, either you can heal or you cannot heal - it's like picking up a rock - a 1 or a 0 -- a simple test is all that is required - either you are a healer or you are not a healer". You would probably say that such a person was ignorant of modern medicine, of biology, and had a very naive and simplistic belief about the nature of healing - perhaps an aboriginal plucked from the jungles of Brazil. There are many variables and influences pertinent to the doctor's ability to heal this particular sick person that are beyond the doctor's control (e.g., the nature, type, form, extent, and source of the disease; the tools available; the history, environment, and attitude of the patient, etc.). How easy would it be for the doctor to explain those variables to his aboriginal patient even if he knew exactly and completely what they were? Also, there are very likely to be significant variables that the doctor doesn't fully understand himself (there are limitations to the doctors knowledge of medicine as well). I suspect his explanation would be largely lost on the aboriginal since they would share very few concepts on which to build communication about the application of modern medicine.

Likewise, there are many variables beyond the control of one who would perform a paranormal demonstration. Like implementing modern medicine, implementing artifacts of consciousness (paranormal events) within PMR is a very complex process with many variables - some of which lie beyond the practitioner's control and knowledge. Those ignorant of the mechanics of the larger reality tend to have a simplistic view -- thinking that demonstrating a paranormal event must be like picking up a rock. They share very few concepts (have no experience) on which to build communication about the mechanics of the larger system. Worse, being secure and comfortable with their beliefs about how the world works, they are generally neither open-minded nor interested in pursuing greater knowledge. They scoff at any who disagree with their limited viewpoint by offering dramatic challenges to others to make a very complex process answering to the causality of the larger (less constrained, more complex) consciousness system perform as if it were a simple PMR rock. Because they control some of the pertinent variables, they can generally guarantee the outcome and easily paper over any failures (just like the patient controls some of the pertinent variables leading to the success or failure of his own healing - e.g., he must take his medicine or stop re-infecting himself).

Yes, manifesting paranormal events generally depends upon shared interactions among the participants, observers, and potential observers much like a doctor healing a patient depends upon a shared (cooperative) interaction. The probability of the event happening and the nature of the event (what happens) are both influenced by the overall long term effect that event is likely to have. Such long term far ranging effects are often difficult for us to comprehend, much less compute or control, and thus results are not always predictable. That statement will surprise and baffle you if you think of both NPMR and PMR causality in terms of lifting rocks. In NPMR things are connected more than they are separate.

Those who share the limited viewpoint that consciousness is just a subset of PMR, and are closed minded to personally exploring the larger reality of consciousness to discover truth for themselves (because they believe they already know the truth) are destined to drift about in a world that they cannot understand more than very superficially. One makes choices and experiences the consequences of those choices - that is the way of all existence.

Tom


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:06 am 
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[quote="twcjr"] Worse, being secure and comfortable with their beliefs about how the world works, they are generally neither open-minded nor interested in pursuing greater knowledge. They scoff at any who disagree with their limited viewpoint by offering dramatic challenges to others to make a very complex process answering to the causality of the larger (less constrained, more complex) consciousness system perform as if it were a simple PMR rock.[/quote]

What if one were to move that rock in front of their very eyes. If they have made up their minds that it's impossible to begin with, and you come along and effectively demonstrate the reality of such, what would be the effect on their being? I know that it's easy to deny such actions as hocus pocus, (people make a living off of it), but what if it's done in such a way that they can't escape it's reality? Wonder if it would over load them with fear, they in turn would shut down when the ego can't compensate.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:33 pm 
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Hard to say Shin, There would be lots of possibilities

1 They could simply deny that it ever happened.

2 They might believe you hypnotized them or surreptitiously drugged them.

3 Perhaps they would have to admit to themselves that it happened but tell no one. If a film leaked out, they would publicly claim that it was a hoax -- that the film, or anyone who corroborated that the psi event actually took place, were lying. Their reputation, livelihood, prestige, and credibility would be on the line.

4 Perhaps they and a few others would except the reality of what they saw but, because they were not ready to personally grow, most would fail to capitalize on the opportunity to explore truth with an open mind.

5 Perhaps they (the witnesses) would except the reality of what they saw and would capitalize on the opportunity to explore truth with an open mind, but the press and the public would speculate that they had cut some sort of deal -- that they had been bought off or threatened by some rich believer or organization -- that Randi was getting a kickback. Another dime-a-dozen conspiracy theory. Because of its sensationalism and entertainment value these speculations would get much more traction in the press -- Randi losing a million dollars in some sort of a shady deal or extortion plot is much easier to believe and therefore sell for a profit at the news stand. The alternative (that the rock actually moved) is ridiculous - everyone knows that.

6 From this day forth it will be widely accepted and understood that the paranormal is a natural artifact of the larger reality of consciousness. (I think you would be more likely to sprout wings tomorrow and fly East into the sunset with a flock of penguins)

In short, what do I think would likely happen? Nothing -- except the person who actually moved the rock with his mind would come under suspicion and be widely thought of as a shady or sinister character while Randi slunk off into oblivion, or, more likely, the mover of the rock would be vilified and ridiculed as a fraud in public, loose his job, and have to deal with a ton of hate mail.

One cannot force people to travel where they are not ready or prepared to go. We are not a logical species, facts are much less important and persuasive that you imagine. We humans largely run on ego and fear and that wouldn't change one bit. Without that changing, what else of significance could change?

What would likely be gained? My best guess: Much less than would likely be lost.
No, I do not think I am being pessimistic -- merely realistic. This is the nature of the world we live in.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:40 am 
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@Tom

On the other hand, if it's possible to create a computer technology (i.e. a PMR construct from within THIS sub-system) that can elicit/provoke/propel a human into direct and instantaneous conscious experience of a/the super-system(s) beyond or adjacent this one (i.e. a form of Information-Technology-Enhanced-Meditation (I.T.E.M; a metaphor for a PMR artifact) that renders immediate perception of the "Big Picture"), then I think it would be kind of hard for anyone to deny the greater reality. Unless of course a certain number of other forms of consciousness within the sub-system and/or super-system collectively take action to prevent its availability to the sub-humans (humans identified with the sub-system). We see the concept of this technology hinted at in films such as The Animatrix (story#9), Existenz, 13th Floor, Vanilla Sky, and numerous others. My question is, if such a technology IS possible, is your TOE big enough to accommodate it?

Also, if it is true and such a technology can be created "here" that can take you -your consciousness- "there", then wouldn't it mean that the human subsystem would no longer be a subsystem, but would instead evolve/dissolve into the super-system? i.e. it could no longer be said to be limited by physical constraints (for humans, at least), given that humans would have the option of using an item made from physical substance in order to "transcend" that system.


Sorry if this sounds confusing or unclear, i'm finding it hard to put it into words that can make sense.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:30 am 
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Mysta-Myth,

It doesn't work that way. Being able to become operative in NPMR is not just a skill or a string of experiences -- it is more a matter of growing up -- changing the nature of your being -- lowering the entropy of your consciousness. Your error is to think that gaining a useful or operative access to the larger reality is just like gaining an operative access to Wall Mart. It is not.

There is already technology that, in your words, "renders immediate perception of the 'Big Picture'" without requiring any particular individual effort. It has been around and commonly available for centuries-- psychotropic drugs -- particularly LSD & DMT in the last several decades. Read "DMT the Spirit Molecule" by Rick Strassman for an excellent summary of what this drug does and why it fails to make any positive difference whatsoever -- both individually and within the society.

Of course a drug induced perception is only a somewhat random short glimpse of the larger reality -- to comprehend and understand the larger reality, to master it, requires much, much more than random glimpses/experiences. To experience the larger reality is not to understand it or to gain any effective knowledge about it, much less to become operative in it. Random experiences of the larger reality produce little fundamental personal growth.

Likewise, Hemi-sync will also push you into an altered state of consciousness where you are more likely to experience the larger reality but it won't transfer any knowledge, much less wisdom -- that you have to develop and earn on your own. Technologies that throw open the door are not all that useful since the door is always available and unlocked anyway. If you can't find and open the door, then you are not ready to make good use of what lies on the other side of that door. In fact, random glimpses shoved down your throat by drugs are generally worse than useless. Such experiences, for a multitude of reasons, are many, many times more likely to inhibit your personal growth than boost it.

Here is another "technology" that launches us into the larger reality system -- one that we all use every day -- dreaming. As you may have noticed, dreaming imparts little fundamental knowledge or wisdom and is viewed by the larger society as a hallucination -- same as all the other technologies.

The technology you dream of would quickly be relegated to the same status of dreaming and drugs and Hemi-sync. Its existence would have little effect upon the larger society, though a cult of individuals would no doubt spring up around its use. We need a machine that will produce wisdom and move individuals toward being beings of love -- Anything less than that is fundamentally useless. Can't do it -- won't happen -- consciousness doesn't work that way -- consciousness must evolve under the pressure of each individual's free will intent - such is the nature of our reality.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:43 am 
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Hi Tom, thanks for the rep.

So, correct me if i'm wrong. What you're saying is that even though it is possible to use a sub-system construct or technology to trigger a super-system experience, the experience doesn't always come with a map. I get that bit, but the next question then is - Are there "maps" available in rote-format in NPMR (i assume, hosted by other forms of consciousness) that can be "downloaded"/shared/perceived directly into a consciousness which occupies a PMR host/body in this reality-membrane?


Also with re/ to "We need a machine that will produce wisdom and move individuals toward being beings of love", have you seen the research and technologies that have come out of Quantum Intech and HeartMath? If you haven't, i recommend you go take a look.

Try:

http://www.quantumintech.com/research.html
http://www.heartmath.org
http://www.heartmath.com/self/personal/webinar.html

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:30 pm 
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Mysta-Myth; Are there "maps" available in rote-format in NPMR (i assume, hosted by other forms of consciousness) that can be "downloaded"/shared/perceived directly into a consciousness which occupies a PMR host/body in this reality-membrane?

Tom: Yes, there are. However these only provide intellectual information -- like reading a book. The map you need to make something useful of the trip is non-intellectual. A factual briefing by the experts is of little real value in your ability to change the entropy of your consciousness.

I looked at your links and found them interesting. Particular liked the "Heart field" work. New slant on an old story. Mind and body are tightly coupled in a two-way communication. Each affects the other. Focusing positive intent (meditation, power of positive thinking, healing, etc.) has great benefit to both systems (mind and body) and allows intentional manipulation of both systems. Body and mind non-verbal communication goes on continually within an individual and between individuals. All true, all well known and applied in many ways -- Some new perspectives and a good use of intent focusing tools centering on the heart -- good metaphor, wide resonance. Very useful as this is, like mediation and a hundred other wonderful applications of these principles, it has no ability to directly induce someone to grow up, to lower the entropy of their consciousness. That is still a personal, from the inside out, bootstrapping process dependent on evolving the quality of being of the individual. There are advantages to such methods -- they do facilitate growth, but they can't make it happen. Only the individual can do that for themselves. One could immerse themselves in all of these technologies (including meditation) for a lifetime and not grow the quality of their consciousness significantly. In fact, that happens more often than not.

There are many helping hands -- step-stones -- to make the journey more efficient, but no shortcuts. With very few exceptions, you only get to take home and keep what you earn. Having a machine or technology or process do it for you, so you don't have to do the hard work yourself (anybody and everybody can plug in and evolve their consciousness quality by just doing this process) is a pipe dream that many share. Extrapolating the idea of using technology to reduce the effort required to wash your clothes, to reducing the effort required to attain spiritual growth is based upon a false premise that equates the soul to a pair of blue jeans.

Thanks for the links - definitely interesting.

Tom


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Tom: like mediation and a hundred other wonderful applications of these principles, it has no ability to directly induce someone to grow up, to lower the entropy of their consciousness. That is still a personal, from the inside out, bootstrapping process dependent on evolving the quality of being of the individual. There are advantages to such methods -- they do facilitate growth, but they can't make it happen. Only the individual can do that for themselves. One could immerse themselves in all of these technologies (including meditation) for a lifetime and not grow the quality of their consciousness significantly. In fact, that happens more often than not.

What is the best thing we can do to lower entropy? I am trying the below things. Am I totally missing it? I know it is ongoing and takes courage and patience. I probably should live my life the best I can and not worry about it.

1. Focus on the haves: Catch my thoughts when focusing on the have nots and switch my thoughts to focus on the haves. For example, stop my thoughts of, ‘I wish my husband wouldn't do this or that' and switch them to, ‘I'm glad he is or does this'.
2. Think, ‘Being the smartest of all amoebas is a big deal, haha'! Thinking this helps to humble me and stops a lot of mind chatter of comparisons and judgment.
3. Several times throughout the day quiet my mind and heal my mind (belief traps,fear,ego,), practice parallel processing (send my mind to Waikiki).
4. Work diligently on known fears. Take the action I can take and find a way to surrender while I am not aware of any action I can take.
5. Try to consciously be aware of, ‘How may I assist in raising his/her consciousness'?
6. Listen to the conversations I find myself in just before I awake. However nonsensical it is, do as suggested and see what happens.
7. Meditation
8. Re-read My Big TOE, slower this time.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:45 pm 
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Lonnie,

What a great list. Everyone would do well to keep that list in mind. I think you are generating the optimal situation -- letting your intellect lead you to an attitude and mental environment that maximizes the likelihood of growth.

The final ingredient: The will (intent) to grow, to become more, so that you eventually don't need the list because you automatically do those things listed without thinking about it. Your job is to put your intellect out of its job -- let it make a new list. You know that is working if you see what is on the list becoming more and more automatic and reflexive. If not -- you have to get more serious -- there is very limited benefit to going through the motions.

And finally, a wise person once said:
"I know it is ongoing and takes courage and patience. I probably should live my life the best I can and not worry about it."
Take that advice, it is really very profound.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:15 pm 
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mysta.myth:
Thanks for asking the question about an NPMR technology/device. Tom's reply was very helpful, even though I see where you were coming from with the question.

My perspective was like yours - have the experiences and the changes in your being should follow. However, I have also read Strassman's DMT book and remember towards the end where he says that the DMT experiences did not fundamentally change anybody.

Part of the fear that Tom says we need to drop comes from the fear of death/annihilation. I figure that NPMR experiences might turn the fear of the unknown into a known, but I guess it doesn't work that way. Am I correct in stating that the lowering of the entropy of an individual comes from the dropping of fear, which can lead to sentience in NPMR, which can lead to greater knowledge of the wider reality, which turns unknowns into knowns. However, the NPMR experiences and knowledge can only be profound if we already have lowered our entropy enough to experience them and integrate them more fully with the wider perspective that comes from the lowered entropy? I guess it is a chicken/egg problem, which is why Tom is always advising us to grab the bootstraps.

Which brings me to Lonnie's excellent questions/advice. Unfortunately, I figure I will have to grow up the hard way before I become operationally sentient in NPMR, any shortcut isn't likely to have any lasting change.


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