Return Home
It is currently Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:08 pm

All times are UTC-06:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 351 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 524 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:29 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 6503
Location: Ocala, FL
Quote:
Then things shift and change, and some players are slower to adapt and get behind reality, so you get these structural anomalies like women not being able to sign a lease, especially in the smaller slower towns, especially with older dudes who are stuck in the world the way it was when they were 30 years old.
My friend was a well known news anchor in a large city.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:01 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3499
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Quote:
Quote:
Then things shift and change, and some players are slower to adapt and get behind reality, so you get these structural anomalies like women not being able to sign a lease, especially in the smaller slower towns, especially with older dudes who are stuck in the world the way it was when they were 30 years old.
My friend was a well known news anchor in a large city.
lets step back a bit and consider what we are doing here.

I think the purpose of this thread is marriage counselling between the tribe of women and the tribe of men in this PMR at this juncture in history.

Like in any conflict, I think opposing parties jump to conclusions regarding negative intent, without understanding the primal or pragmatic background to behavior, and then invest in anger and then hate, which interferes with win win negotiation.

So we have this legion of women and men alone in their apartments stewing on their anger, and making alimony payments. Or they are still in their marriages and stewing at opposing sides of the sofa.

I think where Tom is going is that he is starting with the biology and history, so that we can begin to unravel this fundamental dispute between women and men at this time.

With greater understanding we can say..."oh, that's why he/she behaves in this way", and from understanding and context, we can then start to figure out win win solutions, so that our quirks become a source of amusement and perhaps small barriers that we simply walk around without drama.

You only have to find one good man to marry (at a time), or learn independent living with grace, and there are other apartment buildings. You figure out who are the sexists in the office and avoid them, or exploit their weaknesses, and the hunter becomes the hunted.

That being said, we do need to get the understandable anger out and deal with it, and yes, men have no idea, so you will have to tell us. My wife has been telling me for decades and the sexism of this decade remains breathtaking. High entropy, what are you gona do.

There is also another dimension to economics, which is that when a person behaves irrationally, this makes them inefficient, and it opens an opportunity for someone with a clearer understanding of reality to create a competing business model and put the other guy out of business.

So you buy a rental property and just market to women and let them sign their own lease. You open a business and just hire women and give them equal pay. If women are indeed equally or more efficient than men, the woman only arrangement will put the other models out of business.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:01 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:19 pm
Posts: 537
Quote:
Paleo hard wiring (which can only be catered to or suffered)
Do you not perceive evolution to be a third option? Is it not possible that, if consciousness significantly evolves, that the primate brain and body will also evolve?

_________________
Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:51 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Quote:
Quote:
Paleo hard wiring (which can only be catered to or suffered)
Do you not perceive evolution to be a third option? Is it not possible that, if consciousness significantly evolves, that the primate brain and body will also evolve?
And then imagine if early in evolution a different way of being was practiced that then would result in us having brains different than the ones we currently have. In my book this is what is happening, males have a different role in parenting which will result in less sexual interest in children and not killing for food which will result in a less blood thirsty brain just to start. The butterfly effect.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:58 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:19 pm
Posts: 537
Quote:
The actual President of Things-that-Actually-Matter at this moment is Micheal Obama, as she is responsible for over watching Obama's decisions and higher ruleset weighting.

When you shift focus in this way, the astute woman thinks, let the boys have all these superficial things, the corner office, being in charge, I have more important work to do, and their predisposition for such things "frees me up", if one of them can be convinced to focus on this and take care of paying the mortgage.
You hear that, ladies? Don't you worry your pretty little heads about all of this funny business about being in charge or making decisions about society's vital functions. You have the real important work to do, like making sure I'm fit as a fiddle to make all these decisions. It'll be our little secret that you're the "real" one in charge *wink*. Now go tidy up--I mean, exercise your rule over things that matter.

_________________
Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:03 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Quote:
Quote:
The actual President of Things-that-Actually-Matter at this moment is Micheal Obama, as she is responsible for over watching Obama's decisions and higher ruleset weighting.

When you shift focus in this way, the astute woman thinks, let the boys have all these superficial things, the corner office, being in charge, I have more important work to do, and their predisposition for such things "frees me up", if one of them can be convinced to focus on this and take care of paying the mortgage.
You hear that, ladies? Don't you worry your pretty little heads about all of this funny business about being in charge or making decisions about society's vital functions. You have the real important work to do, like making sure I'm fit as a fiddle to make all these decisions. It'll be our little secret that you're the "real" one in charge *wink*. Now go tidy up--I mean, exercise your rule over things that matter.
Ha! You are a male. It doesn't matter other than I have always wondered because you speak without a lot of bias either way I guess. You are a feminist, thanks.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:13 pm
Posts: 211
Location: Missouri
Looks like we have an interesting thread developing here. One way to perhaps put a little more meat into it might be to reply to some of Tom's actual requests. He initially wrote in the intro to the thread that he would like some feedback to help him decide how valuable we think his new book would be which, in turn, will help him decide how hard to work on the book and in what direction he should take it. In one instance he specifically stated: It would be interesting here also to explore what a non-male dominant culture would look like and how we might evolve to a Gender Equal Value System culture or something other.”

Michael


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:21 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3499
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Quote:
Quote:
Paleo hard wiring (which can only be catered to or suffered)
Do you not perceive evolution to be a third option? Is it not possible that, if consciousness significantly evolves, that the primate brain and body will also evolve?
The Darwinian mechanism is shut down once the environment permits everyone to reproduce. The general rule is, those with the most kids, win.

So the careful left hemispherics with one or no children, their brain structure disappears, and the carefree let-the-good-times-roll crowd, their brain structure propagates.

So actual evolution is counter-intuitive in this way. Winning is losing.

Another vector is that some genetic propensities (positive and negative), nurturing/unnurturing cultures and higher ruleset factors, point the family lineage to higher or lower socio-economic vectors, so, every evolutionary permutation is out there and propagating biologically, but some are in the trailer parks and prisons, and some are in coastal mansions, and this is how evolution is playing out in the modern era.

In the past, lets say before 50,000 years ago, any inefficiency would lead you to be eaten by a tiger or dead in a raid from the opposing village. Or you were a slave to the rich guy who got to impregnate all the women. Having the tallest, smartest, strongest man on battlefield breed with the women, would be a very rapid evolutionary vector.

These days, where you end up in life is greatly impacted by your DNA, your nurturing/unnurturing influences, the quality of your IUOC and your FWAUian effectiveness at letting it take the wheel. All of these things can be nudged by personal willpower, quality of intent and maps (models) you acquire along the way, and of course, the uncertainty principle and your guides screwing around with you, for your own good.

How you assess where you end up and how happy/unhappy you are with it, and what you do with your given decision space, will be greatly informed by your map and your Quality of Consciousness.

Unless I am misinterpreting MBT in some way.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:04 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3499
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Quote:
Quote:
Looks like we have an interesting thread developing here. One way to perhaps put a little more meat into it might be to reply to some of Tom's actual requests. He initially wrote in the intro to the thread that he would like some feedback to help him decide how valuable we think his new book would be which, in turn, will help him decide how hard to work on the book and in what direction he should take it. In one instance he specifically stated: It would be interesting here also to explore what a non-male dominant culture would look like and how we might evolve to a Gender Equal Value System culture or something other.”

Michael
I need to get my book out there then.
Love
Bette
In some male cultures, physical size and being the boss translates into the men using that decision space to feed their Paleo impulses and take advantage of and constrain the decision space of the females (or children), who are physically disadvantaged by physical size and materially disadvantaged by being tied to pregnancy and childrearing.

In other male cultures physical size translates into "better able to protect the females". Having power and the corner office meant "my wife is able to stay at home and be with the children as she desires".

When my father in law asked his father in law for permission to marry the latter's daughter, he made him promise that his daughter would never be asked to take a job outside the home. In that era and context, a good man protected his wife from the outside world.

Ironically, the daughter was more educated than either of the dudes, being a female with an M.A. in the 40s, and she probably would have been happier with a career, but she had 4 kids instead and then her daughters fulfilled her desire for career, and neither had children. So many of us are correcting and over-correcting for our parents lives. Anyhoo, their hearts were in the right place regarding intent.

So first we have to figure out what do people actually want and need at the unflexible primordial level, belief and somewhat flexible nuture taken out of the equation. Equality does not have to be sameism. Difference does not mean oppression.

Difference is driven by biology but interpreted by quality. Biologically driven differences drift then into second order pragmatic differences. Then you throw the higher ruleset into the equation.

Lets say a family has a rental property and three kids to raise. Running a rental property involves a lot of tough love as well as sometimes needing to simply be tough, and stepping back from sheltering unmotivated individuals from their PMR feedback. This is hard to do for soft hearts. Same dynamic for anyone in management or the corner office.

Raising children is mostly a soft heart enterprise. The thing is, if women are predisposed to soft heart'ism through hemispheric balance, and men are predisposed to tougher love and sometimes course actions of capitalism through left hemispheric dominance, who do you send on each mission, who is better suited? In this way, specialisation can merely be rational cooperative efficiency, when looked at the from the level of the family.

The materialist egoist feminist, looks at this and sees oppression. Indeed, in high entropy environments, this is the case, and indeed, in such an environment, the gal is wiser to get an education or trade or business, and be independent, as the males behave more like "enemy" than cooperators.

In less entropic environments, the female may find it more efficient to let the dude dial up the coarser family tasks (such as bond trading and taking out the garbage), and she dials up the more subtle social aspects of managing the marriage, raising the children's consciousness, plotting the family's position within social hierarchies.

This does not now normally translate into classic stay-at-home-mom, but may translate into turning down an offer for a high pressure corporate position that would suck up all her oxygen. Like my neighbour who's husband was paliative with a few weeks to live, and her boss sends her to Europe for a meeting.

The Peter Principle and the Peter Solution come to mind. People tend to take promotions up to the point of reaching a level of incompetence. The solution is to not take that last promotion available within your decision space.

I actually worked on teams that were all-girl and girl managed. They really got a kick out of putting males in role reversal situations, such as having buff young guys as admin assistants, or asking the old guy (that would be me) to get the coffee. They were also completely perplexed regarding why they were mostly all single or divorced, or why their kids required psychiatric medicine to get through the day.

There are also weirdly unneurotic gals out there who do it all, and do it all very competently and effortlessly. Part of this is being "gender blind" and not even being aware of gender in the office environment, similar to the concept of "color blindness".

Beyond gender blindness would be gender sensitivity, not from the point of view of "don't tread on me", but rather from the point of view of being sensitive to gender differences with the intent of having the most efficient, love-based interaction possible. Loving intent within the office creates groups with cooperative efficiency, and cooperative groups rule.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Last edited by kroeran on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:14 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Randy,

To quote you:
Quote:
The Darwinian mechanism is shut down once the environment permits everyone to reproduce. The general rule is, those with the most kids, win.

So the careful left hemispherics with one or no children, their brain structure disappears, and the carefree let-the-good-times-roll crowd, their brain structure propagates.
There are controversies regarding 'Darwinian' evolution which I am not well versed in. Tom is more into a generic evolutionary process as I understand it. All this aside, your statement smacks more of conservative, fear based, "they" are taking over than anything realistic. It is also contradictory in the sense that if the "survival of the fittest" rules, then what you are stating is that those who you fear as taking over are in fact the fittest. But this is really a very complex situation and there is, as I understand it and remember it, a large research and written description or literature of how it is common as countries (or individuals) develop and move from the 'third world' to the 'first world' societies, their birth rates fall as they have ready access to contraception, reduce the social appeal of child brides and no female education, etc.

Reality is much more complicated than "fear the 'others' in your world". The alternative to 'left brain' characteristics is not 'feel good' but rather either 'right brain' characteristics or better: balanced left brain and right brain characteristics where each characteristic informs and balances the other. To the extent that Tom is saying here that there is a difference between men and women's brains, or rather cognition, he seems to be saying that a balance and understanding, an informing of each by the other is desirable as a goal and end. Achieve your left brain and right brain balance within a bonded couple or within society by equality of men and women if you cannot do so within each individual.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:01 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3499
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Quote:
your statement smacks more of conservative, fear based, "they" are taking over than anything realistic. It is also contradictory in the sense that if the "survival of the fittest" rules, then what you are stating is that those who you fear as taking over are in fact the fittest.
The Darwinian mechanism in its classical application no longer applies when everyone reproduces, and rather it ironically is turned on its head when the apparently competent lose interest in having children.

Actually, I think from the point of view of AUM and his soul farm experiment, its the sea of muddling masses that really matter, and that the tightly wound higher entropy left hemispherics are mere worker bee drones who's main mission is to make the trains run on time, so that the more important mass of lower entropy digestors are not inconvenienced.

When I am riding in an elevator with a senior executive, I feel "slave" when looking at them. When I am riding with one of the worker bees, I feel "free man" when looking at them. Persons of lower entropy look at the next higher level of their organization and perceive...one more step into slavery and reduction of decision space.

Self employment and some professions are different, and some people are so extraordinarily talented, that moving into these stratospheres is their natural place to be in order to have a comfortable load for their energy.

There is us, and there is our DNA, they are separate things, and you sort of have to ask, who is winning? Your DNA does not have your comfort or happiness or quality development in mind, but has one and only one goal, propagation.

When I make arguments regarding sequestering productive entrepreneurs from socialistic interference, I see it more from the point of view as these people being important often high entropy trolls placed there to serve the mass of consciousness digestors.

Steve Jobs is not about Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs is about Apple products that have great power to improve the lives of the many. Same for the guy that invented the plow.


Its the ordinary man in his townhouse in the exo-burbs that is of most importance to the intent machine. The most important thing that can happen in the Universe, is for such a man to reduce his ego and forgive his wife, forgive his neighbour, begin the process of living in harmony and cooperation.



Its the ordinary man in his townhouse in the exo-burbs that is of most importance to the intent machine. The most important thing that can happen in the Universe, is for such a man to reduce his ego and forgive his wife, forgive his neighbour, begin the process of living in harmony and cooperation.



God looks over his bean row each morning, wondering who will sprout up today from the soil. He scolds the hired help to be more careful with his watering can.

as well, even the rich can aspire to sprout and be good beans. Fewer meetings with lawyers, more cocktail parties.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:31 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3499
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Quote:
Quote:
The actual President of Things-that-Actually-Matter at this moment is Micheal Obama, as she is responsible for over watching Obama's decisions and higher ruleset weighting.

When you shift focus in this way, the astute woman thinks, let the boys have all these superficial things, the corner office, being in charge, I have more important work to do, and their predisposition for such things "frees me up", if one of them can be convinced to focus on this and take care of paying the mortgage.
You hear that, ladies? Don't you worry your pretty little heads about all of this funny business about being in charge or making decisions about society's vital functions. You have the real important work to do, like making sure I'm fit as a fiddle to make all these decisions. It'll be our little secret that you're the "real" one in charge *wink*. Now go tidy up--I mean, exercise your rule over things that matter.
it relates to you seeing the male and female as separate fear-based entities, rather than one organism.

it relates to you seeing men and women writ large as two opposing camps, rather than two cooperative tribes.

if you don't really believe this, if you still measure life materially, indeed, this sounds like a con.

indeed, when men break the marital life cycle contract, the whole deal breaks down, which is why the astute woman might shoot for an ideal, but hedges.

One of my neices is on classic mommy track and the fellow as well wants the classic mom at home arrangement. They have a pragmatic plan that makes sense, which involves living for a few years close to the Arctic Circle. I am constantly nagging her to invest in her Plan B, which means always think about her position should he abandon the marriage or die prematurely.

Its a good thing for society when women are in the Boardrooms and legislatures. The question rather is what is best for your family, marriage and children, as relates to seeking positions of power? Look around and taste the pudding.

How I might order priorities and tradeoffs for regular middle class families, might shift for people with wider decision space.

Lets take the middle aged woman who is self made or has inherited wealth, and she has successfully launched her children.

I would strongly urge such a woman to get involved with local politics and work her way up the power chain, subject to how this interacts with holding her marriage together. This rather than piling another million onto the family stash or playing bridge in Florida. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It also relates to IOUC's passion and where it wants to go.

I would also beg such a woman (or man) to take economics 101. A great deal of damage is done to society by well intentioned soft hearted politicians who do not understand how economies work.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:44 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3499
Location: Florario/Ontorida
continuing
Quote:
A million years of evolution has spawned different attitudes, approaches and ways of interpreting and dealing with the world:

These differences express successful variation within the evolutionary process and lead to a broad range of sometimes overlapping characteristics for both males and females. Due to this evolutionary diversity, probably no statement or description of any meaningful sort will universally apply to all women or to all men. However there are some female characteristics that do apply to many or most women and some male characteristics that do apply to many or most men. We will now explore a few of these typical female and male attributes to facilitate a discussion of several widely experienced contemporary gender issues.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Right, first try to figure out "typical", then later look into variations, role reversals, normal curve tails, androgeny, and the diversity of sexual preference.
Quote:
Men are hardwired to direct their energy towards the mastery of the outside world. This exterior focus optimizes their ability to protect their tribe, mates, and children through team work and cooperation with other men. Male interaction is thus primarily with the outside environment and requires focus and attention to big picture outside strategy and little picture outside details.
and getting too focused on the inside environment can be depressive (DNA offending)
Quote:
He guides, forms, and manipulates his reality to suit him by asserting his skill and power in the outside world in order to take care of his tribe, mate, children and himself. Most of his interaction in the world is focused on manipulating the outside environment to provide for himself and those who depend on him.
I think as well here you are making the useful analytical simplification of presuming average quality of consciousness.
Quote:
Males apply their intellect to the outside environment in order to dominate the outside world with skill, power and force. However, they tend to stumble or feel their way through the inside environment of personal relationship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, successful negotiation of Trade Treaty with South Korea, or landing a new account, but grouchy spouse due to failing at Valentine's Day or leaving the dental floss on the towel rack.
Quote:
Women are hardwired to direct their energy towards mastering the inside world of personal relationship -- building, maintaining, and networking with others – including her man and his family/social connections. These relationships optimize her ability to keep her man focused on her and her children – they represent the connectedness and responsibility that creates the nuclear family and the glue that holds it together. Additionally, such relationships and networks provide her with assistance as needed, generate a social system of encouragement, support, and solace, as well as bind the male to a shared responsibility within a meaningful set of family relationships.
and male interfering with this process or female underinvesting in it, is depressive for the female (offensive to her DNA).
Quote:
She guides, forms, and manipulates her reality to suit her through the relationship she builds with her man, personal connections, and a network of friends. Most of her interaction and strategy in the world is focused on the inside environment of profitable connectedness (relationship). .
so in this way, perhaps women are more dialed in to the truer eternal game, and underweight the superficial external power games which do not transcend the incarnation, are non-eternal in nature. I wonder if the nature of the female sensor platform in this PMR context contains the QoC advantage of being less easily distracted by the trinkets of ego, more rapidly digging down to IOUC pilotage.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:59 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:19 pm
Posts: 537
Quote:
it relates to you seeing the male and female as separate fear-based entities, rather than one organism.

it relates to you seeing men and women writ large as two opposing camps, rather than two cooperative tribes.
No, that is not accurate. I want to see males and females interacting cooperatively in a society in which males are not the predominately powerful group, but both males and females have equal power over their own lives. Just as you and I went over in the other thread about rich and poor, the reality is that one group unjustly holds power over the other. But it is not that way because it is an optimal arrangement, but only because the powerful camp held some short term (little picture) advantages to attain that power.

We have two differing visions for the future of humankind. In your vision, men remain dominant decision-makers and women merely act as a supporting caste [link is to a punk song FYI], tucked away and buried in domestic worlds. Perhaps I am using a faulty lens, but I see a retrograde paternalism to pervade most of your sermons here. You want the individuals who currently have power to keep that power, and everyone to be blind to inequality and pretend it does not exist. In my interpretation of your views, if someone does not have power, that is the correct arrangement. Maybe you didn't go lefty enough in your youth to see the fundamental inequalities pervading our social systems and hindering justice. I see it all the time in real life; I'm not making up some leftist propaganda. Anyway, perhaps your old guard thinking is helpful for our evolution, as it represents an obstacle we should oppose.

In my vision, I see it as possible that men and women will share equally in decision-making, as is only just. If a decision impacts several "groups" of people, then all groups should have an absolutely equitable contribution to the decision. The only instance in which one "group" should have the sole power of decision-making is when that group is the only one affected. And in our intensely interconnected society, those instances will be extremely rare.

+++++++++++++++
Incidentally, here is a link to a decent article popular on BBC right now: What If Women Ruled The World

_________________
Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:37 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Randy,

You tend to channel Alexander Pope (without the poetry but as the apologist) in An Essay on Man: "Whatever IS, is RIGHT".

Ted


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 351 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 524 Next

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited