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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:51 am 
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How common do you think social behavior that is for fun/entertainment, that is not negative is? If you think this can be, how much of it is not out of insecurities/fears?
The only way I see right now where something like that might be helpful is when someone knows a behavior like that will contribute someone else's growth.
Do you think it can be not unbeneficial to growth and even contribute to growth?
I think anything can contribute to growth, or in other words, behaving/acting a certain way can't mean it is harmful by itself, unless it harms another person in a way that doesn't contribute to their growth, then it's at least partly negative.
I want to know if you can assume most of the behaviors that seem to be for fun/entertainment don't have to be negative and that the people who behave this way don't necessarily have a low QoC and how much of this is negative.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:43 pm 
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It isn't about what you do but the Intent behind your actions.

TOM:

Every intent put into action through free will choice has consequences.
The larger consciousness system does not seek vengeance, or retribution -- no one is directly punished or rewarded in the usual little picture sense of those words. Karma and reaping what you sow are both good concepts but you have to look at them from the larger perspective of: You are the sum of your intent driven choices. When bad choices (increases entropy) follow poor intent you pay the price of de-evolution, failure to grow -- one way or another, now or later, these errors will generate problems for you. When good choices (decreases entropy) follow correct intent you reap the reward of evolving to a state of greater awareness and personal power, satisfaction, significance, and love -- one way or another, now or later, this growth will make your life more joyful and productive.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2380&p=2723&hilit=intent#p2723

“The doing” isn't the point; it's the intent. So here you are, and you’re a curmudgeon, and you are (saying,) “Well, we ought to nuke them.” You’re no different than someone who actually was able to do those things, and did it. And you’re de-evolving in just the same way. It's the quality that you are. The quality of your Intent is what determines whether you evolve or de-evolve.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8434&p=75117#p75117


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:16 pm 
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Linda,

Thanks much for this..
I have always been a bit puzzled how the fun/entertainment areas fit into the Q of C , equation.
And your absolutely correct that in trying to gain understanding of this, I think i was a bit too focused on the "actions" still versus the "intent"..

Brian


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:34 pm 
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I'm aware of the intent behind an action being the important thing. I want to know if people think this (non-low QoC behavior done for fun/entertainment) happens, In what ways for example and how common it is


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:05 pm 
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Well here is one thing i forgot to mention...

If you look at Tom's sorta second Tier of intents your supposed to avoid

( wants, needs + desires)..

Than if you ask yourself what is the usual intent behind the fun and entertainment genre ?

Well to me that's usually, ( wants, needs + desires)..

I think that's is why it was always an area that was a bit unsettling to me to consider..

Brian


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:15 am 
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It isn't that you are not supposed to have enjoyable experiences and interactions in your life. Just not to create them at the expense of others in order to satisfy some desire of your own to their detriment. Different people with different personality types will engage in fun and pleasure seeking more often than others. And they will take pleasure in different things. If you read the book Please Understand Me II by David Keirsey and compare Artisans with Guardians, you will find that the Artisans, a substantial proportion of the population seek this kind of situation often. Compare them to the Guardians who do not let pleasure interfere with "stoical acceptance of their duty". "Artisans, on the other hand, do things for the fun of it; to them, a life without pleasure is not worth living, and the hedonist's motto of "eat, drink, and be merry" are words to live by. To wait, to save, to store, to prepare, to sacrifice for tomorrow-that is not the Artisan way."

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:21 am 
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Quote:
It isn't about what you do but the Intent behind your actions.
Sainbury I just did a work 'test' on how we should behave and one of the questions was related to bullying and it said it doesn't matter what your motives are if it is perceived by the person as being bullied as negative then it will be dealt with as being negative no matter what the Intent of the person. It made me chuckle :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:51 am 
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Reality,

What is a work 'test'? I have never heard that term before.

Keep in mind that what Linda refers to here as in it is our Intent that is judged as positive or negative is that judgement is based in the LCS and not elsewhere. Nothing to do with how it might be judged in PMR and by whomever. Perhaps you were contrasting that in you post but it was not perfectly clear.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:15 am 
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Quote:
Reality,

What is a work 'test'? I have never heard that term before.

Ted
In other words every year we do a 'refresher' you could say on how we should act within the company and with customers. At the end of reading 80 or so pages we do an assessment and need to pass with a score of 90%. All on computer and every single year... :-/
Yep it is a contrast...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:44 am 
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It isn't that you are not supposed to have enjoyable experiences and interactions in your life. Just not to create them at the expense of others in order to satisfy some desire of your own to their detriment.

Ted
Thanks for your reply Ted..

Let us try to delve a bit deeper into ( Q of C), " Spiritual Growth" related to this topic of how fun/entertainment plugs - in to the purpose of why we are here in PMR..

I will give a couple of examples and leave this open for discussion ..
I think these are pretty typical of modern day society and the type of choices available to us. Perhaps as often as a "daily basis"...

In these examples I think it is best if we presuppose that the individuals in question have obtained at least a level of (Q of C) where as they have the larger picture in terms of having an awareness of the available options which would be a part of their current decisions spaces.

In addition, let us chose a solo- type form of entertainment as opposed to an experience you would share with "other" such as going to the movies with someone. I think this is a less complicated situation to start us off to examine.

Okay so we stay with a typical working person who is than limited to 'X" amount of free time hours/ day.
Also, I think its easiest for me to use my own daily life routines to present the situations and the options available to me.

So through my job whereas I provide a service for the elderly, I have struck up relationships where i have the knowledge that at any given time you may have 2-3 of my customers in assisted living facilities. And many times it is the case that as part of my awareness of there current living situations that they often benefit from visitations when they are feeling lonely. And these visitations from me often cheer them up

Otherwise I could also be a father who has the knowledge there children can benefit from activities involving there father, which sounds like a common and typical option available to many of us as parents.

So given this is what is in my decision space at the time of using my free will to make choices, and I opt for a solo entertainment activity instead of choosing one of the ( above listed options) ,such as playing a PC game or playing 18 holes of golf on my own., You further narrow down the gist of the choice to making your decision for "self" rather than "other".

Than could it not be argued that the choices I have made are than at expense or detriment of others ?

and further would one term this as a direct or indirect detriment ?

And as long as we agree that assuming we have reached a Q of C which opens the door to this larger decisions space, how it would ever be in our "best interests" to opt for solo entertainment/ fun activities ?

And to me than this still makes a lot of logical sense why amongst our second level tier of aspects to work on , reduce, and eliminate- why ( wants , needs and desires) these are mentioned by Tom once you get past the first tier of course of ( Ego, beliefs, expectations and fears.)..

For myself, these are specific examples that plug right in to this second tier ?

Brian


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:59 am 
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Basically as we make our decisions as to what we do in line with what you have outlined, just go ahead and do what you want and choose to do. Then observe the feedback that results. If you receive sufficiently negative feedback, you will perhaps next time be more ready to opt for the activity that helps the elderly person make it through their day or that makes your child happy. One simple way that I, at least, simplify the concept of reduced entropy and increased QOC is to think of it in terms of allowing us to make better decisions. Decisions that do not bring negative feedback or that at least you know is minimal as for instance you could not satisfy both of two competing interests. As QOC improves, eventually you do not have to sit there making these decisions consciously as to something like, 'if I do this I am happy but if I do that, X can be happy also'. With adequately high QOC there is no apparent choice. You act for optimum happiness for all involved. That is how I would analyze and explain it.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:16 am 
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Most entertainment (games, sports, hobbies) in PMR are, to my mind, "practice" for the larger objective of consciousness evolution. We are driven by the fundamental process to "act out" that process in all that we do. That means seeking to decrease our own entropy, or the entropy of the environment, within the strictures of a ruleset.

Take a solitaire card game. We shuffle the cards into disorder (increase the entropy of the cards) and then arrange them in order (decrease entropy) according to a ruleset (maximizing the entropy reduction process). Our inner sense of seeking order is satiated.

Or golf. We start with no skill (entropy). We work iteratively on each aspect of the game starting with the swing--hand position, foot position, head position, backswing--working on long game, short game, sand, rough, and so on (decreasing entropy) all within the context of a ruleset (maximizing our learning). In so doing we learn bootstrapping: there are no shortcuts to entropy reduction.

Or art/music. We start by learning the very basics--tools, techniques, materials--copying our favorite artists, develop a level of proficiency, and create our own art (here the rulesets are much looser). We learn more about our selves and our world by reaching inwards and expressing outwards.

These are solo entertainment. When adding games with others (team sports, multiplayer video games, board games) we add the dynamics of interaction, which are more directly aligned with consciousness evolution: sportsmanship, teamwork, fair play, following rules, empathy, etc.

From a PMR perspective, in my view, a person seeking entertainment is not, by virtue of that fact alone, to be disparaged. That person may be seeking a sort of psychological release through the expression of reduction of entropy a realm he or she has more control (the realm of the game), so that he or she feels better and can be calmer and make better decisions when interacting with others at work or at home, where s/he has less control. In that sense, we are in no position to take a severe ascetic view that all pleasure-seeking that is not directly aligned with the process of reducing the quality of consciousness is wrong or a waste of time. People (consciousness) are much more complicated, and such blanket rules do no good.

Approaching the question from a larger perspective, I have a feeling that entertainment in itself can be a very powerful learning tool for consciousness evolution. By "acting out" the process of entropy reduction in a PMR environmental context, we can actually experience fundamental truths. It is here that I think intent becomes important. That is to say, we must transfer these lessons into our spiritual growth (consciousness evolution). I use the word "transfer" here in the sense it is used in the discipline of education: "the capacity to apply acquired knowledge and skills to new situations." It may be a direct lesson, or it may be more subtle and come out in unexpected ways.

Further, it is my hypothesis, based on my experience and a very small hint in MBT that this PMR VR may be an experiment in the use of entertainment (fun) for consciousness evolution:
Quote:
Sure, AUM might create a reality dimension or two for amusement or gaming, but it has nothing to do with our local reality (OS) - unless of course, we are the fun one. I am having fun, aren't you?

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:16 am 
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I second what Ted said. If you have to force yourself to do things that you think are philanthropic then you probably won't be very good at them. Because any activities from your intellect only, are not flowing out of your being level. When you evolve the quality of your consciousness then those ideas and activities naturally flow. That someone could actually consider those two things as choices would be a step in itself. Most people do one thing or the other without really thinking about it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:53 am 
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These are solo entertainment. When adding games with others (team sports, multiplayer video games, board games) we add the dynamics of interaction, which are more directly aligned with consciousness evolution: sportsmanship, teamwork, fair play, following rules, empathy, etc.
Enjoyed your analogies.

I want to add a personal experience to what you wrote. A couple of years ago I tried out a first-person shooter for the first time after there were discussions among researcher what effect these games could have on people. What I found was that I got really annoyed when I got shot. Really annoyed. There were some anger in me related to being a worse player than the others. Something I wouldn't have discovered like this hadn't I played this game. An ego issue. So I kept playing it for some time, and every time I got shot (and since I was really bad I got shot a lot) I used that to tune down that part in me that got upset. I became better while doing it, I became less and less annoyed, but I needed to be conscious and willing to reduce my ego to let it in any way be a beneficial experience to me. If I had not been in that mind-set, I could kept on getting upset and even become more and more angry. Devolve. So the game is only beneficial if you let it be beneficial. Then you can enjoy it while still working on your ego. The annoying part goes away, or at least becomes subtle and manageable, and in the end you move on to other challenges when the experience is depleted to you.

But I do think it's very, very important to accept that we have an ego. That it's ok that it's acting up from time to time. If we don't do that we make it so much harder for ourselves. If we accept that we have an ego, we can enjoy what we do while still working on/with it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:31 pm 
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But I do think it's very, very important to accept that we have an ego. That it's ok that it's acting up from time to time. If we don't do that we make it so much harder for ourselves. If we accept that we have an ego, we can enjoy what we do while still working on/with it.
I absolutely Love this !
and this is excellent advice for me really..

thanks so much :)


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