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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:35 pm 
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Thank you. However, I am curious to know how it applies to your understanding of "Uncle Fred" as relates to MBT.
There is a conscious being (the IUOC) that played Uncle Fred when he lived on earth. Assuming that someone is able to contact deceased Uncle Fred on demand, the question I raise is not whether the phenomenal manifestation (visual, auditory, etc.) is itself Uncle Fred but whether there is a consciousness behind the manifestation and whether that consciousness is the same individuated consciousness that played Uncle Fred on earth. As far as I'm concerned, the answer to the ontological question of where the individuated consciousness comes from is clear, and it's not from the phenomenal manifestation of a body. In the case of deceased Uncle Fred knowing things that only Uncle Fred would know, the question becomes is it the Larger Consciousness playing Uncle Fred, or is the individuated unit of consciousness that played Uncle Fred on earth also playing him now. That has to do with the process and methodology applied by the LCS for the evolution of consciousness, and is not answered by the understanding that the body we label as Uncle Fred is purely phenomenal (virtual) in nature.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:50 pm 
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Thank you. However, I am curious to know how it applies to your understanding of "Uncle Fred" as relates to MBT.
There is a conscious being (the IUOC) that played Uncle Fred when he lived on earth. Assuming that someone is able to contact deceased Uncle Fred on demand, the question I raise is not whether the phenomenal manifestation (visual, auditory, etc.) is itself Uncle Fred but whether there is a consciousness behind the manifestation and whether that consciousness is the same individuated consciousness that played Uncle Fred on earth. As far as I'm concerned, the answer to the ontological question of where the individuated consciousness comes from is clear, and it's not from the phenomenal manifestation of a body. In the case of deceased Uncle Fred knowing things that only Uncle Fred would know, the question becomes is it the Larger Consciousness playing Uncle Fred, or is the individuated unit of consciousness that played Uncle Fred on earth also playing him now. That has to do with the process and methodology applied by the LCS for the evolution of consciousness, and is not answered by the understanding that the body we label as Uncle Fred is purely phenomenal (virtual) in nature.
Ok, but I am trying to get at your understanding in terms how he is defined per MBT or is this your understanding.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:08 pm 
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What I've heard Tom say a few times is that the LCS plays Uncle Fred. That it doesn't make any sense for Uncle Fred to be waiting around for years for someone to talk to, and that Uncle Fred's IUOC has reincarnated.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:58 pm 
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What I've heard Tom say a few times is that the LCS plays Uncle Fred. That it doesn't make any sense for Uncle Fred to be waiting around for years for someone to talk to, and that Uncle Fred's IUOC has reincarnated.
Well, can you provide a cite? I would like to establish a consensus.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:05 pm 
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I would go back six videos to one called How does Reincarnation and the Afterlife Really Work from the 18th minute to the end, and that will give you the gist of his views on the issue.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:45 am 
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What I've heard Tom say a few times is that the LCS plays Uncle Fred. That it doesn't make any sense for Uncle Fred to be waiting around for years for someone to talk to, and that Uncle Fred's IUOC has reincarnated.
I've also heard that, usually, I think, in relation to the Database.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:55 am 
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That's right, in relation to the database. He says if deceased Uncle Fred talks about something that's not in his database like current events, then that's because the LCS has taken over and started to play him, and that it's not really a fake Uncle Fred because the LCS already plays everyone anyway, since we're all pieces of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:29 am 
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Uncle Fred 25:10. My understanding of Uncle Fred specific to MBT:

There are 2 sentient beings an aspect or chunk (FWAU) of a sentient being and 2 VR digital avatars prominent in the game of this VR universe. The IUOC can manifest as a conscious sentient being and or remain as consciousness. It can be a wave, a particle, or both. The IUOC is the brain of the permanent avatar, or in other words, it manifests as such. IUOCs created the virtual reality matrix called earth consisting of a PMR and a NPMR within its created VR NPMRn universe. This universe represents information programmed into a experiential sensory data stream.

The VR earth includes digital avatars. The avatars develop as a VR embryo to birth as an infant. An aspect of the permanent avatar gets the data stream of the conscious fetus and upon birth begins to experience the developing life of Uncle Fred. The aspect of the permanent avatar (immortal) becomes Uncle Fred. Uncle Fred does not know that its true self is the permanent avatar by design. It is not the digital avatar it plays.

Uncle Fred ages and dies from natural causes (mortal). Its VR body decays. Uncle Fred is a conscious personality with free will before and after death. He is a (mortal) digital PMR avatar before death and a (mortal) digital NPMR avatar after death. Uncle Fred as the between lives digital avatar (mortal) gets a experiential transitional sense data stream. He sees his mother (the LCS, another IUOC, a guide etc.) who "walks" through the process of realization. He realizes he is the permanent avatar. He no longer gets the PMR or NPMR data streams. The digital character's life as Uncle Fred remains in the actualized past PMR and NPMR data stream.

The permanent avatar goes on to review his life as Uncle Fred the VR digital avatar.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:53 pm 
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Yes, that's pretty much my understanding too of what MBT says about Uncle Fred.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:39 am 
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There is a conscious being (the IUOC) that played Uncle Fred when he lived on earth. Assuming that someone is able to contact deceased Uncle Fred on demand, the question I raise is not whether the phenomenal manifestation (visual, auditory, etc.) is itself Uncle Fred but whether there is a consciousness behind the manifestation and whether that consciousness is the same individuated consciousness that played Uncle Fred on earth.
"We are more than our physical bodies" is a phrase that appears in numerous models spanning back hundreds of years. What does it mean when it is said we are more than our physical bodies?

According to my understanding of MBT and other models it means we are not who we think we are. So if Uncle Fred is not who he thinks he is then what is he?: He is a consciousness subset of AUM (IUOC) getting information from a experiential digital data stream. But wait, he is also a conscious sentient being playing the digital avatar of its creation in a VR PMR NPMR experiential data stream. He is also a conscious digital avatar making choices in a VR rule set called earth all the while not knowing it is all of these things.

So how does it work to give a name to the sentient being playing Uncle Fred. How about Cleese. I can name the IUOC Kumara. So Uncle Fred is a digital character created and played by Cleese. When Cleese stops playing Uncle Fred that life experience becomes a memory to him. That life experience also changes the entropy and QoC of Cleese.

So, when the VR PMR digital avatar named Uncle Fred dies, its life experience remains as a experiential sense data stream in the actualized past data base for review and play. The FWAU continues to live (getting the life stream of the IUOC) and retains the personality and memories of Uncle Fred as a VR NPMR digital avatar getting a experiential sense NPMR data stream. During the realization phase of the transition, the FWAU named Uncle Fred dies and all aspects of his life experience in PMR and the transitional NPMR remain along with the memories for review and future play.

Cleese goes on to review his life experience as Uncle Fred. Kumara (or another consciousness subset) can play Uncle Fred in a future data stream involving a loving niece in need of rescue or in a data stream involving a distraught wife in need of closure.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:50 pm 
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Cleese goes on to review his life experience as Uncle Fred. Kumara (or another consciousness subset) can play Uncle Fred in a future data stream involving a loving niece in need of rescue or in a data stream involving a distraught wife in need of closure.
That's what I think is the most likely explanation in the case of an on-demand summoning of deceased Uncle Fred in an active communication. However, this is the point where MBT veers in a different direction because MBT would say that deceased Uncle Fred is never again played by the IUOC except very soon after Uncle Fred passed away. After that though, MBT holds that the only conscious entity that plays deceased Uncle Fred is the LCS itself.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:05 pm 
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Cleese goes on to review his life experience as Uncle Fred. Kumara (or another consciousness subset) can play Uncle Fred in a future data stream involving a loving niece in need of rescue or in a data stream involving a distraught wife in need of closure.
That's what I think is the most likely explanation in the case of an on-demand summoning of deceased Uncle Fred in an active communication. However, this is the point where MBT veers in a different direction because MBT would say that deceased Uncle Fred is never again played by the IUOC except very soon after Uncle Fred passed away. After that though, MBT holds that the only conscious entity that plays deceased Uncle Fred is the LCS itself.
This deserves our attention. The models converge here. Uncle Fred dies as a VR PMR DIGITAL AVATAR and as a VR NPMR AVATAR. You see Uncle Fred was created by a permanent avatar, a conscious sentient being. The IUOC is the brain of that sentient being per MBT. Both avatars remain as characters in a digital experiential sense PMR NPMR data stream, our modern day computer program. So Uncle Fred is played by an IUOC to those other permanent sentient beings suffering from amnesia that are emotionally attached to him and in need of help during their own death transistion.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:48 pm 
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So Uncle Fred is played by an IUOC to those other permanent sentient beings suffering from amnesia that are emotionally attached to him and in need of help during their own death transistion.
I agree that Uncle Fred would be played by the IUOC in that situation. However, MBT would not agree. MBT would say that it's the LCS itself, not the IUOC that plays Uncle Fred there. Every time I've heard Tom discuss this situation, he dismisses the possibility of the IUOC's involvement by pointing to the absurdity of Uncle Fred just waiting around for years to talk to someone. The way he frames it, either Uncle Fred is just hanging out for all eternity waiting for someone to show up or his IUOC has moved on to a new experience packet. There is indeed an "excluded middle" here as vzam pointed out, which I have not heard Tom address, such as the possibility that the IUOC can be experiencing its new experience packet, while at the same time a piece of it is involved in the interaction with the loved one.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:58 pm 
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possibility that the IUOC can be experiencing its new experience packet, while at the same time a piece of it is involved in the interaction with the loved one.
That is a highly unlikely scenario. For that to happen the IUOC would have to pull the Uncle Fred data out of the Actualized Past Database to play the character. Instead it is much more logical to think the LCS accesses the data and plays the part of Uncle Fred.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:55 pm 
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That is a highly unlikely scenario. For that to happen the IUOC would have to pull the Uncle Fred data out of the Actualized Past Database to play the character. Instead it is much more logical to think the LCS accesses the data and plays the part of Uncle Fred.
I don't see it as unlikely at all if the IUOC has a special connection to its own actualized past database, which I recall even Tom saying that it does. As I've said before, the LCS may be involved in facilitating the interaction, but I doubt very much that it actually plays the part of Uncle Fred. If it were just the LCS, as part of a reincarnation methodology, you would expect Uncle Fred in the "summoning on-demand" scenario to at least mention something about how he has reincarnated, rather than continuing to foster the wrong impression. He could easily say something like "I've been reborn into a loving family" or "I am happy with my new family" or something like that. That would not only give the loved one, "a bigger picture," but a correct "bigger picture," rather than a misleading one. The fact that those types of statements are not commonly reported should be taken into account when assessing the credibility of the reincarnationist view.


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