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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:02 am 
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Hey guys

Big fan of Tom’s work, haven’t posted here yet (hopefully it’s the right section). I watched an interesting video from Anil Seth regarding the neuroscience of consciousness. This is the link if you haven’t yet watched it: https://youtu.be/xRel1JKOEbI

It’s the first time I could see what looks like consciousness is something which can be solely generated through the evolutionary steps of our biology inside the brain. If this is the case than how would this all impact MBT? I’ve only completed the first book of the series & watched most of Tom’s videos from his YouTube channel (so forgive me if this sounds a little clueless) I’m just trying to piece this together.

How does an individuated unit of consciousness be linked to source consciousness when from the latest neuroscience findings it appears the evolutionary steps of the brain can generate consciousness without any links to a source consciousness (that we know off). Or am I missing something?

Thanks &a apologies if this is something already explained, I would appreciate anyone’s insight :)


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 10:27 am 
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Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Neuroscience is just exploring the ruleset of this virtual reality. The brain, like everything else, is virtual. This is a virtual reality and not a physical one, and that's where scientists get stuck. The brain is just the constraint in how the consciousness can interpret the data. Consciousness does not reside in the brain. Consciousness is outside of the PMR, (Physical Matter Reality.)

You, as consciousness, are rendered a data stream. You receive data, interpret data, make decisions, and send data. That's how consciousness interacts with a virtual reality.


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 6:29 pm 
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i used to think the same things. consciousness was generated in the physical brain. death is real and final. the big bang was just a random thing.

i am so glad to have found Tom's work and have had the experiences I have had to understand the truth. It has had such a profound impact on my life and the life of so may other people just from me learning it and passing it on.

I have also been able to get demonstrations to prove it to others.

I suppose nothing has happened in your experience to conclusively prove it to you. Than in that case its good you remain open minded.

Ask the LCS for something to let you know MBT is the real deal. I doubt it is monitoring all of our thoughts all the time or what we are doing or saying in great detail. Write your message to it on a piece of paper and stare at it for a while. say the message in your mind with the intent that the LCS gets the message.

I think there is a chance you might get something and your journey on the path to discover the truth will more or less end here with MBT and you do not have to waste any more time on any other theories about the origins of your consciousness. I am glad i do not waste any more time with that as I have always been interested in the truth, the big picture of our situation.

just be careful who you tell about it.


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Thank you both for your replies. I do really resonate with everything in MBT, so I guess what I’m saying is, because we have proof through neuroscience studies that our consciousness was formed through an evolutionary process now, was this just the LCS’s method for creating individual units of consciousness in the virtual reality?

And if this is the case, how does an IUOC connect to the FWAU? At what stage did this occur through the evolutionary process and does the IUOC also connect to other conscious non-humans like animals?

And one last question, does an IUOC connect to the FWAU (avatar) at birth? I hope my confusion makes sense!

Thanks again


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:17 am 
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was this just the LCS’s method for creating individual units of consciousness in the virtual reality?

We are not in the virtual reality. I have experienced being a consciousness seemingly "floating" in a dark void. consciousness is not "in" the virtual reality. We are just units of information processing, when we process information we become temporarily consciousness. by doing it again and again by sending and receiving date we experience what almost seems as continuous. the virtual reality rendering engine starts these simulations and plays all of the charters, no consciousness necessarily, just the rendering engine playing the characters. no tree is aware or no character is conscious until the LCS plays one itself or an IUOC logs on to play one of the characters. do a google images search for "indras net" and you will see visual representations of where all awareness and consciousness is. you receive data and make a decision and send your reply to the virtual reality rendering engine. given that the data you receive is senses of a character is a virtual reality again and again, it seems continuous and that is the LCS's method for creating IUOC's "in" the virtual reality.

the LCS separates a piece of itself with data processing, pattern matching, etc, with free will from the rest of the system and you get a data stream send to you. I know it seems very much like your consciousness is "in" the virtual reality behind your eyes in your brain, but it just not the case.

And if this is the case, how does an IUOC connect to the FWAU? At what stage did this occur through the evolutionary process and does the IUOC also connect to other conscious non-humans like animals?

we dont know exactly how far back an IUOC logged on to play a character in this simulation. when we see a character we would like to play to learn from that experience. if it was interesting for you to play a dinosaur, maybe you did so. In your next life if you really want maybe you can play an octopus. some are just apparently not ready for the decision space of a human and those units of consciousness may play other characters. if an entity is having trouble playing as human type characters, maybe they will have incarnations will less decision space. generally from what I understand there is a general progression to playing characters with more decision space.

And one last question, does an IUOC connect to the FWAU (avatar) at birth? I hope my confusion makes sense!

I remember being conscious and aware at the end of my moms pregnancy some time before birth. It can happen at any time during the pregnancy but i would guess normally towards the end. Tom has also discussed longing on after birth, maybe even weeks or months after. In that case the virtual reality rendering engine is just playing the baby and it would act as you might expect until the player logs on. I am sure there are also cases where it happens exactly at birth. I am sure it also depends on the number of positions available in a particular VR, if you are just jumping in for random experience or you have planed things out and a particular family is selected for you, etc.

It is such a profound moment every morning when i wake up or think about the fact that I am playing a character in a virtual reality. Its so nice to know the truth. And useful.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:47 am 
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While the brain may have evolved, consciousness is not contained in the brain. Consciousness plays an avatar that has a brain. And the brain is a constraint on how the consciousness can play the avatar.
Quote:
And if this is the case, how does an IUOC connect to the FWAU? At what stage did this occur through the evolutionary process and does the IUOC also connect to other conscious non-humans like animals?
The FWAU is a portioned off part of an IUOC. The IUOC takes the characteristics it wants to play the next avatar. The IUOC and FWAU are re-integrated after the PMR data stream is discontinued for the FWAU - the avatar dies.

Tom said recently that an IUOC may not even fully play the avatar until it is 7 years old. But it is a completely individual choice. Being fully conscious in a baby would be pretty boring.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:23 pm 
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It’s the first time I could see what looks like consciousness is something which can be solely generated through the evolutionary steps of our biology inside the brain.
Have not watched the vid but this sentence (statement?) alone already does not make any sense.

No matter what you 'measure' or see in neurologic activity in or around the brain does not prove that consciousness arises in the brain. It just shows that the avatar is a kind of 'machine' that is working, also with a cognitive / thinking and perception activity which can be mirrored (holographically) in/by the brain. So what?

Seems they also had to bring the term 'evolution' into it because it sounds even more scientific then. ;-)

All of these scientists jump to conclusions bases on their limited understanding imposed on them by reductionist science it seems.

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"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:57 pm 
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John Lorber a British neurologist:

"There's a young student at this university,"
says Lorber, "who has an IQ
of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree
in mathematics, and is socially completely
normal. And yet the boy has virtually
no brain."

The article follows:

http://rifters.com/real/articles/Science_No-Brain.pdf

I watched the 17 minute TED talk by Anil Seth. I did not see any mention of the above findings.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Thanks all for your replies, I can definitely see from a different angle now. From Anil's youtube video, there was a comment from a neurologist finding's which was what resonated & seemed like there was a part of consciousness being formed through the process of evolution, have a read of this and let me know if this coincides with MBT:


"Consciousness is the processes of recognition and extrapolation. Here’s how evolution did it.

In the beginning there was life that could exist but could neither sense nor react. Energy could be gathered. New individuals could be produced. But, this was all rather automatic. (The details of what happened during this stage are not fully known - i.e. origin of life - but that is another story.)

Okay, so, life first exists. Next, it needs to sense. In the most primitive forms this means sensing changes in environment that would have impact on core homeostatic mechanisms: reducing or enhancing certain chemical situations in order to adapt to the momentary external situations.

Then, along came reaction at levels greater than simple shifting of biochemical states. This is where we start to get into such things as movement or adaptation of whole systems to different needs. For example, moving toward or away from stimuli, or shifting systems toward feeding, reproduction, or other. This is the stage of simple reaction.

Then, reaction became more refined. For example, organisms needed to determine how to move - direction or extent. This was primitive reaction calibration.

Then, along comes primitive memory. That is, better than just reacting is the ability to recall the results of reacting in order to better select future action. This requires some form of retention of prior experience. This is the basic level of memory. It required the segregation of specific neurons that could act to retain the results of past actions and then use this to calibrate future actions. We still do this today in some forms of primitive memory such as “muscle memory”, as used in sports. We learn how to refine movement to make it the right kind and degree. We don’t consciously remember precisely how we do this (e.g. which specific muscles act in which specific order and degree) because the memory of these details is retained in primitive parts of the brain that we don’t normally contact in consciousness. But, we do still have these functions.

Through all of these early evolutionary stages organisms were still just reacting. “A” lead to “B” - in some relatively simple way.

However, evolution continued. Armed with primitive mechanisms of memory, organisms could begin to select from among memorized outcomes. Essentially this is the primitive form of “choice” - selecting a reaction appropriate to some broader perspective of the circumstances (e.g. from constellations of sensations). All of this is still about reaction, but with increasing sophistication.

Next, with the introduction of choice could soon come some primitive forms of planning. This is not just reaction; but, rather reaction informed by some kind of intended outcome. This requires neurons that are devoted to the task of connecting memory to anticipation to future action. So, we are moving to brain that does not have direct function in reaction.

By this stage we are coming to primitive consciousness. With the introduction of primitive planning we can begin to move past reaction. Organisms with planning can begin to “think about” what to do. That is, a set of neurons begins to be set aside that have the functions of selection, anticipation, and even extrapolation.

As the functions of memory access, selection, anticipation, extrapolation become more sophisticated they move into complex functions such as evaluation and judgement. These then form the basis for development of complex motivations such as goals, values, expectations and beliefs. All of this level is not aimed specifically at reaction. It is aimed at determining how to “think about” situations, possible actions, or complex ideas such as “perspective”. This whole level of neuronal action that serves these functions - beyond reaction - are the realm of consciousness.

At this evolutionary stage the brain is now armed with three populations of neurons: 1) those with primary intent to create manage body state (breathing, circulation, digestion, temperature regulation and so forth), 2) those with primary intent to orchestrate reaction to external circumstance (e.g. motion, defense, etc), and 3) those with primary intent to extrapolate information. The first group we now think of a regulating “vegatative” processes. These may remain active even during a coma. The second group oversee reaction and some levels of this are automatic, either marginally conscious or “unconscious”. The third neuronal group processes “thinking”. Neuronal conversations between first two groups and the third group is what we call awareness (e.g. being “aware of your surroundings”). Correlation of information from the first two groups to prior memory is largely “recognition”. Abstracted processing of information (by the third group) that is separate from actual stimulus processing is what we call imagination.

So, where in the brain is “consciousness”. Anil Seth’s talk gives some perspective. Yet, depending upon which specific function of consciousness we select we might get different answers to the question. Overall, consciousness is broadly located in the parts of the brain more recent developments in evolution (that is, the “neocortex”). Further, some portions of consciousness are more centralized to the front of the brain, where the “executive” functions are more-or-less located.

Are other creatures then “conscious”? Yes, of course. Only our anthropocentrism and hubris would lead us to believe that consciousness is ours alone. However, our vast libraries of information and stories stand as testimony that we do have more neurons specialized to work with extrapolations beyond reaction - that is, more neurons specialized in the production of consciousness. We have more, but we are not alone in this capability.

As you can see, consciousness is not mysterious. It is simply a stage in the evolution of information processing - a stage that emphasizes extrapolation rather than reaction. Thus, we now have the capability to watch videos, such as this one, and “think about” the information.

Here is another piece: sleep is the stage of integrating and consolidating information. When we are “thinking about” information we are awake and conscious. (If we are fully absorbed in such function then we may be seen as “daydreaming”.) When we sleep we are integrating and consolidating information. If we are in coma then neither of these is happening (as far as we know). (Yet, in coma we may still show some very primitive forms of reaction.)

Last, in a normal brain, information is somehow “tagged” as being derived from actual stimuli (experience) versus being the product of “thinking” (imagination). Thus, the normal individual can basically separate what is “real” from what is imagined. However, this tagging function can break down. In some pathological situations (e.g. psychosis) the mechanisms don’t work well and the individual cannot tell whether the information was real or imagined. In some other situations, such as drug use, the barriers between real and imagined are disturbed temporarily. This whole area of real/imagined boundary processing is a fascinating area - not fully understood. It is likely that there are specific neurons that are involved in this tagging process, and that their function can be subverted in various ways. "


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:05 pm 
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only a player from outside of the simulation or part of the lCS that may be playing the trees, etc can be aware and conscious.

the whole point was of course to evolve a simulation where characters would evolve that we would want to play.

think of it like this. when i go and play call of duty or any other video game is the avatar conscious? no. the player from outside of the simulation is, who logged on and is playing the character. its the exact same thing with our universe.

maybe ask for a void experience while sleeping and you can see where your and all consciousness and awareness really is. with no data stream and just floating there seeing all around just darkness with no body you will say to yourself; I am here. I exist. I am aware. I am conscious."

the VR just exists as coding in the data bases. all consciousness and awareness must be outside of the simulation.

i often say to myself looking at nature, it seems so organic and real, no wonder why so many people are materialists. it is all a product of an amazing virtual reality rendering engine and highly intelligent consciousness system.

i wish you luck in your search for the truth.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:56 pm 
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Thank you, that pretty much cleared up my confusion. So one could say that there are NPC (non-player-characters) walking, talking & experiencing in the simulation which haven't been logged on by an IUOC?


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:49 pm 
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that is our understanding. most likely all of the adult humans you come in contact with are IUOC's playing the character.

Tom talks about in the beginning it is almost all non player characters, but after a generation or two the world is then populated almost entirely by players.

who knows for sure. maybe there are many people being played by the virtual reality rendering engine. only the LCS has that information.

it seems strange having relationships with non conscious characters in the VR. I terms of a baby there is no way we can tell the difference I am sure. The system is likely so good at playing its characters it has stored in its databases I am sure you could likely not tell the difference. Tom talks about in the transition VR you cannot tell the system is playing your dead family members and friends. It has all of the data. It knows how a baby will likely act, what your friend would probably say, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:40 pm 
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That makes sense - thank you


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:27 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
It’s the first time I could see what looks like consciousness is something which can be solely generated through the evolutionary steps of our biology inside the brain.
Have not watched the vid but this sentence (statement?) alone already does not make any sense.

No matter what you 'measure' or see in neurologic activity in or around the brain does not prove that consciousness arises in the brain. It just shows that the avatar is a kind of 'machine' that is working, also with a cognitive / thinking and perception activity which can be mirrored (holographically) in/by the brain. So what?

Seems they also had to bring the term 'evolution' into it because it sounds even more scientific then. ;-)

All of these scientists jump to conclusions bases on their limited understanding imposed on them by reductionist science it seems.
Quote:
John Lorber a British neurologist:

"There's a young student at this university,"
says Lorber, "who has an IQ
of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree
in mathematics, and is socially completely
normal. And yet the boy has virtually
no brain."
Interesting observations. Any thoughts on why these things seem to be so(beyond our current understanding that consciousness does not reside in the brain)?

How many assumptions are there? Which is the last one which must go? (Fundamentally speaking).


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:30 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It’s the first time I could see what looks like consciousness is something which can be solely generated through the evolutionary steps of our biology inside the brain.
Have not watched the vid but this sentence (statement?) alone already does not make any sense.

No matter what you 'measure' or see in neurologic activity in or around the brain does not prove that consciousness arises in the brain. It just shows that the avatar is a kind of 'machine' that is working, also with a cognitive / thinking and perception activity which can be mirrored (holographically) in/by the brain. So what?

Seems they also had to bring the term 'evolution' into it because it sounds even more scientific then. ;-)

All of these scientists jump to conclusions bases on their limited understanding imposed on them by reductionist science it seems.
Quote:
John Lorber a British neurologist:

"There's a young student at this university,"
says Lorber, "who has an IQ
of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree
in mathematics, and is socially completely
normal. And yet the boy has virtually
no brain."
Interesting observations. Any thoughts on why these things seem to be so(beyond our current understanding that consciousness does not reside in the brain)?

How many assumptions are there? Which is the last one which must go? (Fundamentally speaking).
I once had an OB that provided me objective evidence that my consciousness can exist outside of my VR Brain/Body. The appropriate MBT metaphors are elusive at this stage of my understanding because I do not think I switched data streams. I have written about this in another thread:

I was laying in bed top of head south on my right side facing east. My back facing west to my wife. Using the"roll out" method, I rolled in the direction of my wife right through her. It startled her and she jumped out of bed. At that point, I saw the look of disbelief on her face as we both looked at my body, its back facing us. She did not know I (consciousness) was next to her. Later she would tell me, during a debriefing, that she thought I had touched her leg and was shocked to realize that it could not have occurred because my back was facing her and I was fast asleep.

John Lorber's findings add objective credible evidence in support of my subjective experience. My wife's testimony provides objective evidence of my experience for me. There are no assumptions.


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