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 Post subject: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:21 am 
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I finally got around to creating this new Topic, as John has been encouraging me too..

I think as i am still very far from where id like to be with the QOC progress , but what seems to interest me most at the present time is the "related topics "
part of my topic description ..

i still have some lingering questions or lack understanding as to what role meditation might have to QOC..

First let me mention I do fully agree with Linda , in that its clear it would never be a primary role in terms of the increase in QOC.
and so that would leave me wondering if meditation would have even any possible supplemental roles in a program that leads to increases in QOC.

Perhaps its best I share with everyone this discussion i had with Teacher Martin , whom i highly respect and often seek his wisdom for in the content we all embrace.. i think some of you will have some comments and insights into this discussion as i suspect there is a commonality of the aspects i ponder.

Okay so in a supplemental role only here was a couple ideas that i suspect ive likely created from my intellect that i presented to Martin -

1) since i realized that the actor PMR- Brian was very much this fear based and ego-laden individual , there must be some benefit to be derived from a search or identification of my real identity..

2) regular meditation sessions could be used to facilitate such an endeavor

So the problem that Martin had with such an approach , is he clearly outlined to me that effective meditation should be approached in a very goal- less fashion . So I realized if that is correct that there was a conflict here.

Because to me much of the program that MBT outlines is goal oriented in that, your working toward a higher QOC as our main purpose here and the lowering of associated entropy..,

Yet effective meditation should be goal less ?


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:18 am 
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Quote:

Yet effective meditation should be goal less ?
Tom on meditation:

Meditation


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:11 am 
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You are leading yourself into your own future. The details of how you do this are unimportant, you are doing it whether you are conscious of it or not. It is possible to meditate while wide awake. You are meditating right now, you just don’t define it to be meditating because you call it experiencing. Look at what YOU are experiencing, not what others are experiencing. You have created your experience.

I found this on the internet. People are hilarious. Lol.
Quote:
What was once just a rhetorical illustration used to demonstrate the futility of out-of-touch theological debates is now a exciting science experiment you can conduct in your very own home!
What you will need:

pencil and paper
one pin
a large number of angels
Note: Seraphim and cherubim are most desirable, but almost any angels will do. The garden Anaheim variety of angel should be avoided.
One copy of "The Song That Doesn't End (Extended Version)"
Instructions: Insert the pin upright into a sturdy surface, such as a pin cushion or Styrofoam block. Begin playing "The Song That Doesn't End (Extended Version)" and instruct the angels to step onto the pin and begin dancing. Count each angel, stopping only when no more angels can dance on the pin, and remembering to make sure all of the angels are dancing on the pin and not just hovering above it, so as to avoid a potential source of error. Repeat several times, removing all angels from the pin after each trial. From these trials, determine the average number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

Additional Exercises:

Procure a copy of Maurice Durufle's "Ubi Caritas et Amor" and repeat the experiment. Discuss the effect that music religious in nature has on your results.
Does the type of dancing affect the number of angels who can dance? Experiment with such dancing styles as the foxtrot, the Electric Slide, and the clueless male arm flail.
Discuss possible sources of error, such as pin imbalance, drunken angels who keep falling off of the pin's head, or angels who won't dance if they don't know the song.
Next week: Does a watched pot ever boil?


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:07 am 
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..that would leave me wondering if meditation would have even any possible supplemental roles in a program that leads to increases in QOC. ..meditation should be approached in a very goal- less fashion. ..there must be some benefit to be derived from a search or identification of my real identity.
1. I think it largely depends upon what type of person you are. Meditation has been recognized as having huge benefits for those suffering from PTSD, those with a lot of stress, and for lots of other conditions. If you are the kind of person who feels a lot of stress and cannot keep your mind from rambling on, particularly in a fearful way, then meditation makes a huge difference to you. If you are a mellow person who doesn't really worry about things, then meditation is probably just a nice break.

2. Meditation can be used for a goal if it is to explore NPMR or heal. But to keep goals for progress is useless because experiences are so varied. In that way mediation should be approached like life - do the best you can with what you get.

3. I think to find yourself at the being level can be done by meditation, but is more likely though cognizance in personal interactions. Just stop lying to yourself why you do what you do. If your ego is constantly protecting you from your decisions, then that is the real you at the being level. And the reverse is true. If some decisions make you cringe afterwards then you are closer to your being level. The next step is making better decisions to start out with. But in the end the real work is here in PMR.


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Quote:
But to keep goals for progress is useless because experiences are so varied.
Another way to express this is: "Be interested in the race rather than the goal."


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Linda,

thanks for all your research , and postings that you tirelessly do for all of us..
you are on very special lady , thats for sure :)
Quote:
But in the end the real work is here in PMR.
I have to fully agree with you on this here..
And whatever small aid or help meditation can be in the regard of assisting on an increase of QOC, i would venture a guess at this time that it is a considerably lesser factor compared to a mildfulness of what our potential here in PMR is to raise that same QOC..


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:56 am 
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Quote:
But in the end the real work is here in PMR.
i will share a story that happened yesterday, and is typical of my personal examples of working on QOC -

But first I need to share some background..

I made the decision ( a few months ago), finally to become vegetarian ( and possibly Vegan ), down the road..
It has been something I have considered doing for quite some time now..
I enlisted the help of my cousin (Alan), who has been fully Vegan for many years now. He was quite happy to help me make the change.
But he felt it was best to make the diet changes gradually, since my previous diet and nutrition was so heavily based on meat + processed foods.
So we developed a 21 week plan , where i would take one of the weekly 21 meals and make them meat -free ( one at a time), until I reached my goal .
So for example week 1- 1 of the 21 meals would be meatless ,
week 2 - 2 of the 21 meals to be meat free.
.. and so on.. until eventually all 21 weekly ,meals would be meat -free.

So this current week was the week where i am supposed to have all 21 meals be meat free.
After i got rained out of my landscaping job yesterday, I stopped at a store called "Earth Fare"..
I really like there veggie pizza slices there and I was quite hungry ( this was around lunch time)..
Unfortunately , they had just run out of the veggie pizza just before I arrived , and when I inquired , it would take at least 15 mins before the veggie pizza slices would be ready. Lacking patience (ego), and not wanting to wait around in a cold store for that long .. my first thoughts were to cheat on my diet ( Alan would never know)..and grab a couple of the meat pizza slices that looked so tempting to me . i was very close to doing this , but something told me this would be wrong to do ( cheat on my new veggie diet). So I ended up grabbing 2 plain cheese pizza slices .

I admit i was proud of myself for not taking those "meat" pizza slices , but regarding an increase in QOC. i did ponder (afterwards) what mindful changes I could make such as the next time I faced a similar situation where (cheating on my diet), is a possibility , that I would not consider this option of cheating ?
I thought there must be a fear I have that causes me to come that close to cheating on my new diet ?

Perhaps some of you out there reading this ( especially those that have made the transition to either vegetarian or vegan ), have some suggestions ?


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:45 am 
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What is your Intent behind becoming vegan?

I am a pescetarian - I only occasionally eat fish. And I have been one for over 40 years. I never was a big fan of meat even as a kid. But looking at any meat makes me think of the images of the slaughter house. If you think of where that product originated from, it is easy.


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:10 am 
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Quote:
What is your Intent behind becoming vegan?

I am a pescetarian - I only occasionally eat fish. And I have been one for over 40 years. I never was a big fan of meat even as a kid. But looking at any meat makes me think of the images of the slaughter house. If you think of where that product originated from, it is easy.
oh my Linda,

This is such a lovely example to examine QOC really..

But let me go back to the decision to follow this veggie / vegan path , that I started out so many weeks ago..
Yes, it was started ina similar way you had described. I had watched one of those "Vegan" animal slaughter house videos.
And though I had watched those types of videos many years ago, I was struck really how much my feelings had changed since than , which was all prior to what I call my "MBT period" . My feelings seemed authentic, sincere and heartfelt, .. the empathy I felt toward animals.And so this ended up being the main trigger to move forward down the "Vegan path"..

But how quickly we forget ?,
as i think the rest of my example to you will demonstrate -

But yes . .. that was the first thing my cousin thought about, was "did you consider WHO you are eating ?
and so not "what" are u eating, but "who ? "

I is with sincere regret I have to share with you, Linda.. that was the key aspect missing from my mind-set.. :(
And so as i may have changed my mind and did end up selecting the non pizza slices..you still have to examine the why and your motives ?
and so as i would have changed my mind simply based on the fact "im breaking the rules if i grab those meat slices " ?
I just think thats spinning wheels still in the intellect, if the consideration of the animals welfare was not really considered ?

Did you have any addition comment on this intellect vs Being level example ?[/i]


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:37 am 
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I stopped eating all meat except the occasional fish when I was in my late 20s because one of my friend's described her collage slaughter class to me. She was an Animal Science graduate, and the slaughter class was a requirement. She is an animal lover and she tried to get out of it. But her adviser told her the college wouldn't graduate her without it.

I was so horrified by her descriptions that I never ate beef, chicken, turkey, pork, etc. again. Her description of the pigs going to slaughter was particularly graphic because they are such intelligent animals, and they know immediately what is going to happen to them. She said they scream and scream. Interestingly enough, my friend still eats meat. I can't look at packaged meat anywhere without remembering the origins of where it comes from.

When I was married to my first husband, I would occasionally cook him meat. But just the smell in the house made me nauseated. For my second husband he ate mostly packaged meat or we went out.

The being level and the intellectual level comes when you see the store is out of veggie slices and you automatically pick up the cheese ones. There is no middle thought in between. Your intellect takes over when you have to decide what to do.


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:45 am 
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The being level and the intellectual level comes when you see the store is out of veggie slices and you automatically pick up the cheese ones. There is no middle thought in between. Your intellect takes over when you have to decide what to do.
Linda,

this was so beautifully and succinctly put !

it was also helpful to me When John was able to discern that there seemed to be high operation from the "intellect level" after reading some of my postings..


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:04 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
The being level and the intellectual level comes when you see the store is out of veggie slices and you automatically pick up the cheese ones. There is no middle thought in between. Your intellect takes over when you have to decide what to do.
Linda,

this was so beautifully and succinctly put !

it was also helpful to me When John was able to discern that there seemed to be high operation from the "intellect level" after reading some of my postings..
Here is Tom dissecting and reconciling Freud to MBT. He breaks down the being, intellectual levels and explains the function of the subconscious before and after fear is removed. As a dovetail to the thread on sleep, during normal dreams you are operating at your being level and when in a lucid dream you operate according to the existence of fear and ego brought to bear by your subconscious. In a lucid dream, you operate in the waking state, you either have eliminated fear, ego and the subconscious dissipates making you whole or you operate at the intellectual level. When you are in a lucid dream, or any another similar metaphor (in other words consciousness is distinct and separate from your avatar), without fear your creativity and control is limitless.

Being,intellectual levels and subconscious operations


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:32 am 
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True knowing is being. You do not need to think about what you know, you simply do what you know.

You do not need to think about beating your heart, digesting your food, breathing your air. When you’ve learned how, you do not need to think about walking, you simply walk. When you’ve learned how to walk you then learn to run, you simply run. You learn how to jump, then you simply jump. You learn how to fly you simply fly.


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:33 am 
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I want to reiterate, any experience you have as an FWAU will be through the constrictions of that FWAU and not the IOUC. And all experiences will go through the filter of the FWAU. It doesn't make any difference if the FWAU is getting the PMR data stream, the dream data stream, is lucid in a dream data stream, is getting data from meditating, or is getting some other data - it all goes through the filter of the FWAU.


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 Post subject: Re: QOC + Related topics
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:31 pm 
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Quote:
I want to reiterate, any experience you have as an FWAU will be through the constrictions of that FWAU and not the IOUC. And all experiences will go through the filter of the FWAU. It doesn't make any difference if the FWAU is getting the PMR data stream, the dream data stream, is lucid in a dream data stream, is getting data from meditating, or is getting some other data - it all goes through the filter of the FWAU.
What is the significance of this reiteration within your perception?


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