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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:07 am 
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An extension to Cole's post.

An example of the respect the hunter gives to the prey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:27 pm 
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An extension to Cole's post.

An example of the respect the hunter gives to the prey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo
That is the way it is suppose to me done if one eats meat. I guess it today's world walking to the fast food shop instead of driving, and then throwing the wrappers in the trash can rather than littering is the best we can do. We wouldn't make it very long in that environment I'd say, "we" being people like me.
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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Well when I hunt I do give the the animal respect and try to make it painless but I was more worried about the knowing better and doing it anyways part, becuase that would be negligent.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:26 pm 
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You pretty much limit your ability to evolve your part of Consciousness here by starving to death, but yes knowing better and still doing it is an issue. Now the question is "knowing better" than whom, but surely I digress.
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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:29 pm 
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True True. I guess I really don't know better otherwise it would be obvious to me, I need to stop thinking about that stuff so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:38 pm 
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True True. I guess I really don't know better otherwise it would be obvious to me, I need to stop thinking about that stuff so much.
Sometimes I think I think too much, and then I think not. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:23 pm 
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I believe under Jewish law, hunting is only permitted if it is required for survival, and hunting for sport is strictly forbidden, due to the core principle of kosher, which is that the killing be humane and by one cut.

Up to the middle ages I believe it was common practice for gentiles (that would be me!) to slaughter farm animals one limb at a time, as a form of food preservation.

I would like to hear Kris's consideration of the fact that farmed animals would not have the opportunity for sentience if not for the decision to buy meat at the supermarket.

If you were killed painlessly and without foreknowledge (as is done in modern slaughterhouses if regulations are correctly enforced), would you not prefer a few months or years of comfortable sentience, rather than not incarnate at all? Animal welfare and free ranging is a separate issue.

I think for a hunter who has no problem with it, they should just continue. Their conscience will tell them when to stop, and that is the correct moment to stop, not when others tell you to, otherwise you are living according to the consciousness entrainment of others, rather than the entrainment of your own consciousness.

Technically, can you go NPMR and have a chat with the dead moose that night?

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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:53 pm 
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I don't know about all that, except the jewish rules belief systems stuff, which is BS although it was good planning to only accept the best cuts of the animal.

This does bring up something I have been thinking about. Cloning meat, I heard them talking about cloning meat and it could be the "choice" muscles that they could clone and grow for food with no animal involved other than the bit taken for cloning from the muscle. They could even put some adrenaline into the mix since I have a theory that fear tenderizes meat. Meat with no killing, would that be doable as far as the damage eating meat has on our Consciousness?
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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:10 pm 
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I don't know about all that, except the jewish rules belief systems stuff, which is BS although it was good planning to only accept the best cuts of the animal.

This does bring up something I have been thinking about. Cloning meat, I heard them talking about cloning meat and it could be the "choice" muscles that they could clone and grow for food with no animal involved other than the bit taken for cloning from the muscle. They could even put some adrenaline into the mix since I have a theory that fear tenderizes meat. Meat with no killing, would that be doable as far as the damage eating meat has on our Consciousness?
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Bette
Who says eating meat damages our consciousness? I also thought that if an animal suffers while getting killed it hurts the meat rather than making it better but im not positive on that?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't know about all that, except the jewish rules belief systems stuff, which is BS although it was good planning to only accept the best cuts of the animal.

This does bring up something I have been thinking about. Cloning meat, I heard them talking about cloning meat and it could be the "choice" muscles that they could clone and grow for food with no animal involved other than the bit taken for cloning from the muscle. They could even put some adrenaline into the mix since I have a theory that fear tenderizes meat. Meat with no killing, would that be doable as far as the damage eating meat has on our Consciousness?
Love
Bette
Who says eating meat damages our consciousness? I also thought that if an animal suffers while getting killed it hurts the meat rather than making it better but im not positive on that?
Well that is what I am asking about, whether it is the killing, or the meat that is in question here.
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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:45 am 
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This does bring up something I have been thinking about. Cloning meat, I heard them talking about cloning meat and it could be the "choice" muscles that they could clone and grow for food with no animal involved other than the bit taken for cloning from the muscle. They could even put some adrenaline into the mix since I have a theory that fear tenderizes meat. Meat with no killing, would that be doable as far as the damage eating meat has on our Consciousness?
Love
It would be so great if we could make In vitro meat, less suffering for animals, less pollution of the human body with antibiotics and hormones. The environmental damage from our "meat farms" is quite severe, so less energy use and pollution to air.

See more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat

Lumpy, there is a slight dimming of our consciousness when we eat meat, poultry is less affecting than the rest, with the exception of fish. See: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4913&p=21248&hilit=#p21248


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:18 am 
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I think it comes down to available choices at each meal and your level of emotional energy/depletion to make less entropic choices and your skill at making lower entropic foods more tasty. As you progress, it becomes like an snowball rolling down a hill. A small reduction of your entropic social behavior or meditating may lead to a slight increase in your emotional energy and discipline potential, so that you make better choices on the margin. Each choice builds on itself.

Maybe take a course in vegetarian cooking, which will make vegetarian food more apealling (rather than just refraining from meat consumption), and you will get out and meet people reaching for higher quality of consciousness, and possibly add low entopic people to your circle of support.

When you face the meal decision, reach to be as vegetarian as possible, but this may mean making the salad in huge bowl (my salad bowl is what my mom would have made the family salad in), and split a normal portion of poultry/meat between two people.

When choosing your protein, reach for legumes as first priority, then fish, then poultry, then pork, then beef. Try for single cuts rather than blended sausage or hamburger. Make it an interative gradual permanent change. When eating fast food, pick the plain hamburger or from the kids menu, or better, take the fish sandwich (never the soft drinks or fries).

When eating in a restaurant, have one person order an entree, and the other a salad, share the meal (leave a larger than normal tip). This approach also reduces your financial entropy freeing up financial energy for other syntropic purposes, continuing the momentum of the snowball down the hill.

For example, you could pay the extra money to buy meat from truely free range chickens raised in an authentic farmyard, or raise them yourself, use their eggs, and only slaughter them after a lengthy happy life, and use the meat for soup. Be mindful that farmed animals would not "exist" in the absence of meat consumption.

How would you feel if some NPMR higher official decided that human existance was too cruel a method for creating whoosh (quality of consciousness) and sought to ban the creation of FWAUs?

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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:26 am 
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Good grief you carnivores! Just give up meat. :)

Look into why eating meat clouds consciousness. Anyway you slice it, unless you eat meat in a non-impact way (as Tom describes,) you are needlessly and violently interfering with another being's incarnation.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:02 am 
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if the prevailing wisdom of MBT is that the actual act of meat consumption decreases the direct measurement of quality of consciousness, as is the case for sugar, (independent of the issue of the morality of killing a farmed animal which was brought into existance for that purpose), then I am there, with bells on.

I still would point out that when you buy a roasted chicken you are at the same time causing the "birth" of a chicken, and that has not been included in the ethical assessment of the benefit of the act from the chicken's POV.

Misplaced expenditure of consciousness energy on disciplines that are pointless, is entropic, and takes energy away from meaningful productive priorities.

"In the world to come, a man will have to account for every legitimate pleasure which he has denied himself." Jewish teaching [apologies for being on a Jewish tear this week]

I will give up meat if someone asserts it makes the glass cleaner (like giving up sugar)...I just need clarification if the argument is ethical

==== did some digging and found this which answers

Tom: "Foods that have a negative effect on consciousness: The main problems are all psychotropic drugs/substances which include caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, and sugar -- as well as most preservatives, artificial colors, and many chemicals (propylene glycol, sodium benzoate, MSG, etc,), then there are gases such as some paint, glue, and acetone fumes. Just because a food is "natural" or "raw" (e.g., honey) doesn't make it healthy, however it does improves its chances of being healthy over say, "processed" and "artificial". To a much lesser extent than sugar, meat usually makes your mind/consciousness dull and fuzzy as opposed to sharp (often experienced as a heaviness or lethargy) -- inorganic meat is the worst. A lesser effect on the consciousness occurs with poultry and little effect with organic natural fish/seafood -- not breaded (sugar and preservatives in the breading) and not fried (preservatives in the oil). Sauces of all sorts tend to be laden with sugar and preservatives and chemicals -- oriental restaurants catering to western tastes are some of the worst offenders.
Common non-food things that cloud or deteriorate consciousness are fear, ego, anxiety, beliefs, expectations, needs, wants, and pettiness -- as well as being self-focused, arrogant, insecure, or a zombie living in the past or for the future, or constantly measuring and judging interactions with and between others in terms of yourself." quoting Tom C

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4913&p=21248&hilit= ... ive#p21248

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Last edited by kroeran on Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral Code Part II
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:24 am 
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Tom:
I agree, making the slaughter of animals for food less cruel and disrespectful is a big step in the right direction -- a necessary step because you cannot get to step 2 until you have first taken step 1 -- nevertheless, though it makes the problem less horrible, it does not solve the problem. The problem is humans violently trampling another beings free will when there are perfectly satisfactorily alternatives that uphold the health, vitality, integrity, and free will of all the beings involved. (my bold)
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2867&p=4923&hilit= ... mals#p4923

Also somewhere (sorry I can't find it - it may be in an interview) Tom says that animals do not incarnate to be food. They incarnate to evolve like all consciousness.


Last edited by Sainbury on Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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