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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:02 am 
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I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, please move or give me links to discussions, I'm sure this is not the first time it's been asked....
Will someone please tell me how to point someone in the direction of Tom's work who is very wrapped up in the creation vs evolution debate? evolution side deny's any paranormal, and Tom is all about paranormal, but I've heard him mention millions of years and he uses the word evolution a lot, however the creation side is an entirely different theory with the earth created only thousands of years ago? help!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:18 pm 
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adding to what Bette said:

that someone must be willing and capable of suspending their beliefs for some time - meaning here all the things they are so sure to know that it never even occurs that these, too, are questionable, built on shaky ground, or no ground at all.
Discovering this can be ... difficult to deal with.
There are no certainties to discover, just a pretty good model (IMO) which might provide some degree of it.

Here is me paraphrasing a saying from I don't know where: "You can't fill a cup that is already full."


Last edited by Jonathan on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:27 pm 
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If you think they would watch a YouTube video - Tom did a talk with two ministers at the Unity North Church outside Atlanta last year. But even that maybe too liberal for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaeDjSQ ... ults_video


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:16 am 
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I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, please move or give me links to discussions, I'm sure this is not the first time it's been asked....
Will someone please tell me how to point someone in the direction of Tom's work who is very wrapped up in the creation vs evolution debate?
Hopefully your intent is to be helpful and not controlling. If someone is not asking or curious, its better to leave them be. There are more appropriate venues for spreading the word to the "ready", if you feel this impulse.

In the gradient of Christian denominations, the fundamentalist creationist may have a bridge to cross. The Catholics believe in evolution, but that evolution arises from God, which is their word for "other". They also accept PSI, so Catholics will have very little problem with MBT, if they understand Catholicism maturely, and if they can absorb what Tom is really saying.

A Christian Spiritualist, my last stop, who practises mediumship and healing, will hardly be able to tell that they are not in a spiritualist meeting, except for different metaphors.

The key thing about creationism is that something created this, and whether the process of intentional creation by a conciousness started at the big bang or 6000 years ago, is somewhat immaterial. The core of creationism is the intuition that there is something more to arising of life than a random shaking of molecules.

So in this, Tom, somewhat counter-intuitively, is a creationist. So you can tell the creationist that they are correct.

I also do not see why the system could not have fired up the simulation 6000 years ago, perhaps based on another PMR, under Tom's model.

Just because the math of physics points to a big bang, this does not mean that there was a big bang. Its all a contrived virtual reality, after all. Or at least, thats the best model for explaining the data we can measure.
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evolution side deny's any paranormal,
indeed, the materialist evolutionists deny the paranormal, and that is what they are really getting at...life is an accident from brownian motion, rather that intent arising from a much more complex reality than PMR.

the world indeed does seem somehow contrived to foster this belief that PMR is all that is. The absurdity of this is self evident upon close examination, and one paranormal event removes our capacity for this childlike understanding of our lives.
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and Tom is all about paranormal,
that's an important part of his value added regarding trying to provide a framework for science once it starts to accept the data.

he is also "all about" becoming love, which is his other hat as quantum anti-religion guru.
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but I've heard him mention millions of years and he uses the word evolution a lot, however the creation side is an entirely different theory with the earth created only thousands of years ago? help!
again, under the VR multi-verse paradigm, its a lot more complicated. The key thing is not how old our universe is or has been constructed to appear, but that someone created it. The starting point of the simulation is immaterial to what people mean behind their words.

We perceive an apparently physical world in a virtual reality, and this is not the wild imaginings of an eccentric retired rocket scientist, but is rather an emerging view of professional science, and the only view that fits the data.

What we have here is an apparently sane and rational dude who tells us that he has figured out how to visit other parts of this virtual multiverse...and stranger yet, he is not asking you to pay for his Bentley lease or enticing female followers to come for a weekend of fun on his yacht.

Its kinda like the first discovery of China or the New World or that the earth is not flat. Takes a while to sink in.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:06 pm 
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Creationists may not be that wrong. The simulation may have started thousands or millions of years ago. The prehistoric fossils may simply be put there to make it look like everything existed a long time ago.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Remember that as a Virtual Reality, those fossils were there only in probability until they were discovered. They represent the probable remains of dinosaurs and other species that were conscious creatures that experienced the simulation long ago, in probability, as an 'exercise' for appropriate IUOCs. Those IUOCs exist today and experience some other VR as a PMR somewhere, possibly here in this same PMR. That does not mean that the simulation could not have been run, less IUOCs, up until the time that something like human level was possible and only then would human level IUOCs begin to provide the consciousness of those probable entities and experience the PMR of that day. But this is human centric thinking that is probably not what the thinking of AUM would be as there are many other IUOCs that are not at the human level and they would have 'probably' made use of all of those 'probable' conscious creatures out of the past and not wasted those probable conscious training experiences. Not disagreeing, just trying to expand your thinking about VRs.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Thank you all... all of your responses help me so much. I'm new to Tom, within 5 months or so. I was trying to help a Christian friend with Tom's explanation on death, and possible pre-birth planning of these tough events in our lives to grow from. I sent him a video clip to watch and the word evolve was used a lot. We had long discussions of me trying to explain... and because I've never studied it, last week I watched about 25 hours of the evolution/creation debate videos on youtube. My brain melted. I was completely stuck on how to explain Tom, so thank you!
And I will not be pushy with this info to my friend, I understand about strong belief systems. But I told him I think Tom is saying all this evolution happened by a creator, whenever that happened, so it looks like I was on the right track. I will be doing a lot more reading here, what a wonderful forum!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Thanks for your elaboration. I did not think of how the fossils themselves could be probability regardless of whether the dinosaurs actually lived.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Community,

It is difficult to keep in mind the concept of a VR. This VR of PMR is supposed to be a very convincing simulation, and it is. You are supposed to believe in it fully and even if you learn better, from Tom, you are supposed to continue to act 'as if' the physical reality is all there is. You still have to act like it is real at face value and interact so as to produce the best value for yourself and others.

The idea of a VR is very simple in one sense, and very complex in terms of keeping in mind all the details. Basically, the idea is that any information which is not fixed somehow here in PMR, as your memory, to what ever degree that exists, as the photographs or video footage taken or other fixed records, falls back into probability. There have been many discussions here on the board with such things detailed as trees in the woods and how many beers will you find in your refrigerator if you don't really remember how many there should be. How the Big Computer renders based upon probability if that is the easiest way to base its rendering or from past data if that is either easier or locked in as recorded, known data.

So we know that there were dinosaurs because we have fossil records of them. There are records of the probability of where they roamed when they existed. If you go digging for such bones in a 'probable place' for them to be found, you will probably find some, eventually. But were those bones present under ground before you dug a hole and found them? No. In fact, in Tom's concept of a VR, there was not even any 'dirt' down there to dig out of a hole until you started digging that hole. There is just the data that defines your experience of walking around, selecting that spot and digging that hole as sent to you by TBC. There is no you, complete with pith helmet and shovel, walking around in hiking boots and expedition outfit and possibly blisters on your feet. That is all just data sent to you representing your experience of dinosaur bones hunting. What you see is not just what you get, it is all there is. That and also what you hear, feel, taste, etc. And not in the sense of out there, but in the sense of being represented in the data stream that tells you what is 'out there'. The real you is the digital mind as an IUOC that receives and interprets that data stream. Confused you thoroughly now?

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:40 am 
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I have recently listened to Graham Hancock's interview. He talks about prehistoric cave paintings in France and Piramids in Egipt. He has researched it very thouroughly, but all the time I had some unverbalized doubts, and i could not acdept his theory about cave paintings. Thank you, Ted, your post was very helpful to see, why I couldnot agree with Graham Hancock's theory.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:02 pm 
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You are supposed to believe in it fully and even if you learn better, from Tom, you are supposed to continue to act 'as if' the physical reality is all there is
This goes back to what I said before about how I am not sure if these ideas really should be given out to the public (or to a lesser extent, even to us). I believe that if the LCS wanted everyone to know this was a simulation, it would simply do so in a very obvious way. The fact that it basically wants this physical world to seem like it is all there is to the people in this world must be done for a reason.
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photographs or video footage taken or other fixed records
Does the photograph collapse the probability or does consciousness viewing the photograph do it?
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If you go digging for such bones in a 'probable place' for them to be found, you will probably find some, eventually.
But going back to the video game analogy, Tom said the reason why things aren't always rendered is because it saves space/memory etc. However, I think it would take more space to keep everything as a probability instead of just fixed. For example, in a video game, if something is off screen it is not rendered, but it is generally not a probability function. The programmers have coded exactly what they wanted there if the character in the game were to go there to look at it. Using the fossil example, probabilities in the code may say that if you dug in that spot, there is a 90% chance you'll find more soil, 5% chance you'll find a coin, 3% chance you'll find a dinosaur fossil etc...if the code simply says that digging in that spot means you will definitely find a fossil, wouldn't that take up less memory?
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The real you is the digital mind as an IUOC that receives and interprets that data stream. Confused you thoroughly now?
The last part of your post was quite confusing to me. Are you saying the FWAU is not real? What about oversouls and spirit guides?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Community,

Should these aspects of our reality be kept a secret from us here in PMR?

Do you not remember Tom describing that his mission to change the paradigm of science originates at high levels within the management of the local system of NPMRs and PMRs that Tom refers to as OS, managed by TBC? In addition there are signs, which have been mentioned here, that the system is nudging many scientists towards considering Consciousness and its role in PMR. All of the discussions about how the PUP works on the general basis that mass demonstrations of the VR nature of things will be suppressed? That the general public, as in all of the 7+ billion humans are not ever going to hear of and certainly not going to believe this? That so many will just stick with their evidence of their own senses, which are telling them that this is strictly a deterministic physical reality? It doesn't really matter how many know the truth as long as they do not 'rock the boat'.

What collapses the probability?

It is a conscious observer that collapses the probability. But that observation can go back into probability if you don't record details. Look at a tree in the forest, one of perhaps 500 that come under your observation as you wander down the trail. Do you remember the configuration of the branches and location of all the leaves? Take a picture and you have not only collapsed the probability but you have made a record that must be matched. So if you come back later, and can match the picture with a specific tree, then things must be consistent. Come back tomorrow and make a detailed comparison and pretty much all of those leaves showing in detail in the picture must still be there. Come back in a year and something very similar must still be there. Otherwise continuity is destroyed. Don't take that picture and in a year you probably only have a vague recollection of the tree at all, and only if there was something distinctive, some particular feature, that caught your attention. All of this discussed here many times and in detail.

Would it not be simpler to just keep track and run things like the Star Trek holodeck?

If you have no experience of this kind of mathematical analysis and the necessary programming involved, this is difficult to get across. Let us think in terms of a simplified situation for ready understanding and then you extrapolate from there. Are you familiar with mathematical notation and the writing of equations such as y = f(x,t) which states in words that y is a function of (varies according to) the value of x as the value along an axis, x, and the value of t as time. F(x,t) can be pretty complex but is relatively compactly written. Compare that to keeping a list, and it will be a very long list, of the value of f(x) for every value of x and then keep multiplying this list as the value of f(x) changes with time. Can you get your mind around the difference in storage and processing requirements? Put an observer at position x and you calculate one value for y at time t and feed that to them as their observation. But try to be prepared for that observer at all possible values of x at just any time and your lists get very complex when it comes to the actual rendering, all just to be prepared for the chance that the observer will be at any particular value of x.

Are FWAUs, spirit guides, etc. real.

Again, Tom has explained that these things, while complex, are real but just not always what we think that they might be. Your FWAU is what you get here in PMR as your perception of yourself as an IUOC, subject to the rule set of PMR and to your past history of knowledge and experience here in PMR on this particular incarnation. Your FWAU is yourself as an IUOC working with what it has available here in PMR and as limited by the PMR rule set, available memory (think of aging or having Alzheimer's) and subject to any limitations on its complete abilities as an IUOC for the purposes of furthering your 'education' and development as determined by the LCS. Your guidance can come from specific 'guides' as NPMR entities assigned to be your guides as well as from the LCS in a more general sense. Your guidance also varies based upon your ability to be aware of that guidance and accept it as real, to perceive it and pay attention.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:50 pm 
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It's interesting to me that I just had a conversation last night with a Super Christian about the myth of her religion and they are so unbending mostly. I think they are happy not to have to think and to believe that there is no kind of evolution of any kind and that they will get that ride to "Heaven" if they just follow the rules. Sad really but I think it's masturbation to talk to them mostly. Once upon a great while one of them will open their mind and lose their fear of venturing beyond their "Safe" territory and good conversation can come about.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:04 am 
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It's interesting to me that I just had a conversation last night with a Super Christian about the myth of her religion and they are so unbending mostly. I think they are happy not to have to think and to believe that there is no kind of evolution of any kind and that they will get that ride to "Heaven" if they just follow the rules. Sad really but I think it's masturbation to talk to them mostly. Once upon a great while one of them will open their mind and lose their fear of venturing beyond their "Safe" territory and good conversation can come about.
part of the issue is that evangelicals and anabaptist (adult baptism) protestants are not actually Christians, or, ironically, Christianity itself does not actually follow the teachings of Jesus, but rather follow the interpretation of Apostle Paul, who is the only writer in the New Testament who never lived with nor was instructed by the Nazarene. He was busy capturing and hanging this other group on crosses.

I don't question AUM's purpose with what I call believist "Paulism", as virtually anything that persists has a profitable purpose, but it is a very different animal than Catholicism or even more MBT friendly churches that exist. To a great extent, fundamentalist zealotry is a form of mental illness, but a profitable natural phenomena, like a blister over a wound. It arises with any movement, and is present within MBT.

This is what I tell fundamentalists...

"when your church or religion lets you down, strip yourself of all its beliefs and teachings and what you think you know, and rebuild your faith only on the words of the Nazarene".

Anyone who gets the gospels, and this is very small number, will transition to MBT seamlessly...if it is accurately described.

Perhaps there are others who share my own interpretation and reaction to Tom's words

"oh, its you again"

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