The hard problem of free-will

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Felipe Zandim
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The hard problem of free-will

Post by Felipe Zandim »

I've been thinking a lot about the issue of free-will of consciousness. In my opinion, it is impossible for something to happen without a cause. Therefore, all our decisions are motivated. The difference is that it comes to the complexity of human consciousness, that motivation involves thousands of factors. Thus, our conduct would all be deterministic. The illusion of freedom of choice would be in the quantity and complexity of factors leading to a decision and we are not aware. but the absence of conscious knowledge does not mean lack of motivation.

Is an example of launching a given. The result seems random as they do not know all the physical variables that influence the outcome. But the result is deterministic.

However, Tom says that free will is an essential requirement for the existential consciousness.

any idea how to explain certain behavior, choice or action is actually free. Understanding is free as lack of motivation?
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by Montana »

Hi Felipe,

...and welcome to the board.

Someone will probably come in with some thoughts shortly, but in the meantime, try using the search function and enter "Freewill", and you will find some of the discussion that has gone on previously.

Briefly, I tend to stand close to the turf you are on when it comes to this issue... I see physical consciousness as a complex federation emerging from smaller subunits, all themselves emergent as well.

Tom and others here see, if I understand it correctly (and I might well not) Consciousness as evolving from primordial undifferentiated, and distinctly non-physical, blobs, gradually differentiating over the course of experience .

In both cases, free-will (aka, I believe, "Decision Space", ...you might try using the search function on that term as well), evolves as the complexity of consciousness evolves.

The two views may actually not be incompatible, but complementary (like vertices and sides might be said to be complementary in completing an idea of a cube, say. There are better metaphors out there, I'm sure.)

Still not clear on it myself. But have a look at what's been written already.

-Montana
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by soprano »

HI Felipe:

I don't know if you read the books or how far you are on them, but it is well explained there. Montana mentioned decision space. Decision space is the domain of options (e.g. choosing among 3 colors, red, white and black). Free will is then the capability to be able to choose among the options in the decision space.

I hope the following will make you have it more clear. In a computer program you may have a section where you can choose a color among a certain number of colors. Today you may feel in a yellow mood, and tomorrow in a black mood. If you can know how women choose the colors of their shoes and dresses before they go out you would certainly know how your theory of determinism works. In the same program you may have other random generator routines that you won't know what the outcome would be. So you can have both a. clear options and b. uncertainty intermixed. Search also for "living with uncertainty". I think there is a thread in the FAQ or the best of all threads section (bottom of board index) that contains that.

Open your mind and think that results that seem random can actually be random. If we can simulate randomness in programming, it can be done also in the virtual reality you are experiencing right now.

Claudio
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by Ted Vollers »

Felipe,

I tried to do a search on 'free will' but the search function rejects that as too common a word in either case. I did a search on 'decision space' made by Tom Campbell. You might repeat that search and look at some of those 40 resulting posts. Here is one that might give you some ideas: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3346&p=9204

I will apparently have to dig deeper for you and I see that this is a good candidate to gather up material and combine it under the Best Threads part of the board. This question has come up before and it would be good to have a ready reference. Free will is inherently necessary for the Consciousness System to evolve. Let's hold that full discussion until I perhaps put together a reference post or you find that you need more information. That refers to free will at the level of and within your own being, your mind, as an Individuated Unit of Consciousness. You must have the free will for your own decisions internal to your mind, perhaps existing as a neural network of digital logic.

Then you extend the discussion of free will to how you make decisions as you participate in the Virtual Realities of PMR or NPMR. You do have such free will but subject to constraints. There is the question of Decision Space that has been mentioned already. Your decision space is basically the range of things that you consider as possible, that you are capable of considering. Then there are further constraints that limit your free will to those things which you are willing to consider, willing to do. As the old saying goes, if you feel yourself caught between a rock and a hard place, you may feel that you have such bad constraints that you have no free will.

You do have free will, even then, as it is still your choice by which you choose to honor those moral obligations which you feel to be limiting your choices. It is fundamental to the purpose of our participating in VRs in facing this kind of problem and thus having the opportunity to raise the quality of our consciousness. As was mentioned above, this was dealt with somewhere in MBT and in the bulletin board. I will put this on my list of projects to do soonest.

Ted
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by Montana »

Here is one thread related: Free will illusion?

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3984
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by bette »

Felipe Zandim wrote:I've been thinking a lot about the issue of free-will of consciousness. In my opinion, it is impossible for something to happen without a cause. Therefore, all our decisions are motivated. The difference is that it comes to the complexity of human consciousness, that motivation involves thousands of factors. Thus, our conduct would all be deterministic. The illusion of freedom of choice would be in the quantity and complexity of factors leading to a decision and we are not aware. but the absence of conscious knowledge does not mean lack of motivation.

Is an example of launching a given. The result seems random as they do not know all the physical variables that influence the outcome. But the result is deterministic.

However, Tom says that free will is an essential requirement for the existential consciousness.

any idea how to explain certain behavior, choice or action is actually free. Understanding is free as lack of motivation?
Hi Felipe,

Welcome on-board.

The initial understanding of what Consciousness "is" in the MBT model is a good starting place for talking about Consciousness and Tom's MBT model. In Tom's MBT model of reality Consciousness "is" a nonphysical digital information system. We humans existing are actually "Free Will Awareness Units" (FWAU) seemingly separate beings as parts of a "Higher Self" (if you will) referred to in MBT as an "Individuated Unit of Consciousness (IUOC)." This may be the illusion you have felt, but possibly were thinking of as an illusion of having free will.

There is the Consciousness System that is nonphysical digital information of which our little part of it, our piece, our IUOC has put forth this other piece of itself to experience "Bette" (in my case right now) as a FWAU in order to interact with other FWAU (ALL sentient beings have a piece of Consciousness they are working on, oh I thought of a good one, wait for it...) to make free will choices based on my Decision Space, and the Quality of Consciousness evolution level (how evolved is that bit of Consciousness) which does in fact motivate my choices towards loving (outward pointing vector of Intent), or fear inducing (selfish, painful for other, mean, etc) inward pointing vector of Intent. As I understand it once you're evolved enough to start thinking about stuff like this you probably have reached the 100% responsible for the results of all the choices you make every day in every way, not to freak you out or anything. With Absolute Free Will and Decision Space comes responsibility for our own choices and actions, for the results, 100% responsibility when the decisions are made by a "fully" functioning virtual life experience packet. Developmentally delayed, young children, like that, have less decision space, but also hold less responsibility for what they chose to do. It is a fair system in that way, it really seems pretty fair all the way around to me.

With Consciousness free will is a given, it has to be that way because without free will no progress can be made towards evolving the ENTIRE Consciousness System towards a lower Entropy higher quality system, more towards love, or what I hope people will call "Evolove" freely. That is what we are doing, by the way, we are all having these virtual reality experiences from the customized Consciousness data stream in order to make free will choices and learn from the feedback; to organize what we learn into new more loving ways of being; to help create a more useful way of being, useful to the ENTIRE system rather than our self. Better organized data that has more ability to do work, more efficient in being love.

It appears you are attaching "motivation" to "free will", I'd say if an attachment were required it might be more useful to attach "Intent" to "free will" in this case.

I hope this helps.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

ps: I see Ted's posting too, but here this goes as well, click.

Dang, I forgot to add the "good one", an analogy that came to me about how we are all working towards evolving the Consciousness system. Think of SETI and/or Einstein@home, both data systems that send out pieces of its data for other personal home computers to analyze. I have both going on this computer checking for radio stuff with SETI and gravitational waves with Einstein (they have the coolest screen saver). Okay, now one of you computer nerds ;] please apply this analogy to MBT for me as far as what level (edit: silly me, if it works it is fractal and works at all levels, du!), if it works. Thank you, as always.
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by RBM »

Hey Bette -

That first paragraph gave me some additional clarity in the form of the dot-connecting relations. Thanks.
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by bette »

bette wrote:The initial understanding of what Consciousness "is" in the MBT model is a good starting place for talking about Consciousness and Tom's MBT model. In Tom's MBT model of reality Consciousness "is" a nonphysical digital information system. We humans existing are actually "Free Will Awareness Units" (FWAU) seemingly separate beings as parts of a "Higher Self" (if you will) referred to in MBT as an "Individuated Unit of Consciousness (IUOC)."
Hi Tom and All,
The above is me recycling an old term "Free Will Awareness Unit" which seems to have been used interchangeably with "Individuated Unit of Consciousness" by Tom in the first edition at least. Since coming here I have been helped to realize that our Higher Self is not "here" having this experience, only a part of it is here having this experience. I am desiring to call this part, these parts if there are several different PMRs experience packets, Free Will Awareness Units because that's what they are. Tom might have already made this distinction in his book, and I just think I am just thinking of this for the first time. That doesn't matter other than "oops, my bad", I don't need to have thought of something new, I just want to know if you all (Tom?) think this is useful to have a distinguishing term for that, and if FWAU can be recycled if in fact it used to mean IUOC. Do you, can it?
Love
Bette
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by soprano »

Bette:

IUOC = FWAU. FWAU was used before, now we use IUOC.

Read this:
twcjr wrote:Your descriptive models are good ones because they emphasize the whole being as a oneness -- we have this habitual PMR tendency to separate and label all forms and entities, thus making them appear to be all independent from us -- turning everything into separate objects with independent existence. Us vs. them and us vs. it -- with us always at the center. Because of our belief in the separateness of all things, It is difficult for us to conceptualize ourselves a virtual fragment of the One Us, or that the one us is a virtual fragment of The One. We see our little-selves as an inviolate, independent self-contained, whole bounded thing rather than as a virtual part of a larger whole unit of consciousness that is a virtual part of the consciousness system. The word "virtual" is used to emphasizes that we are talking about constrained (with rules) subsets (unique organizations) of data - like documents in a folder, or separate pages of a Word file, or subroutines ready to do their thing within a larger context and purpose of a bigger simulation. Reality (organized constrained subsets that create experience) is a simulation, consciousness is the computer.
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Last edited by soprano on Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by bette »

soprano wrote:Bette:

IUOC = FWAU. FWAU was used before, now we use IUOC.

Read this:
tecjr wrote:Your descriptive models are good ones because they emphasize the whole being as a oneness -- we have this habitual PMR tendency to separate and label all forms and entities, thus making them appear to be all independent from us -- turning everything into separate objects with independent existence. Us vs. them and us vs. it -- with us always at the center. Because of our belief in the separateness of all things, It is difficult for us to conceptualize ourselves a virtual fragment of the One Us, or that the one us is a virtual fragment of The One. We see our little-selves as an inviolate, independent self-contained, whole bounded thing rather than as a virtual part of a larger whole unit of consciousness that is a virtual part of the consciousness system. The word "virtual" is used to emphasizes that we are talking about constrained (with rules) subsets (unique organizations) of data - like documents in a folder, or separate pages of a Word file, or subroutines ready to do their thing within a larger context and purpose of a bigger simulation. Reality (organized constrained subsets that create experience) is a simulation, consciousness is the computer.
Claudio

Claudio,

READ THIS:

Hi Tom and All (except for Claudio),
The above is me recycling an old term "Free Will Awareness Unit" which seems to have been used interchangeably with "Individuated Unit of Consciousness" by Tom in the first edition at least. Since coming here I have been helped to realize that our Higher Self is not "here" having this experience, only a part of it is here having this experience. I am desiring to call this part, these parts if there are several different PMRs experience packets, Free Will Awareness Units because that's what they are. Tom might have already made this distinction in his book, and I just think I am just thinking of this for the first time. That doesn't matter other than "oops, my bad", I don't need to have thought of something new, I just want to know if you all (Tom?) think this is useful to have a distinguishing term for that, and if FWAU can be recycled if in fact it used to mean IUOC. Do you, can it?
Love
Bette
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by RamonThompson »

Bette,

I don't know. I think it might only add to the confusion experienced by many new to Tom's work and the bb. Tom does use that term interchangeably in the book and here in a few places I believe. If they come here first and see it being used one way, that might confuse them when they read the book and vice versa.

That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

Ramon
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by bette »

Thank you Ramon, this is a lot more useful than telling me I don't know what I am talking about. I am talking about clearing up confusion before it happens, and developing the MBT lexicon further perhaps. In my understanding what my Higher Self is, it is something differentiated from what is "being" Bette, it is part of the same stream of consciousness my Higher Self IS, but sent off on a mission to interact and evolve some. This might be exactly where the disconnect is happening, now that there is a useful conversation going, thank you so much Ramon.

I think that the terms "Higher Self" and "IUOC" are interchangeable. Are they?
if yes then go to:

Being aware that Consciousness and Free Will are two sides of the One thing (and that this is what I think of when thinking "IUOC), wouldn't it be nice to have a useful term for what each of our IUOC puts forth to allow this life experience packet as Bette (in this case/context), or you, and have it be called "Free Will Awareness Unit" no matter in what manner it was used originally, if in fact it was used by Tom interchangeably with IUOC?
if so then:
Let it be so. Perhaps it can be addressed in the third printing.

if not then, okay.
Love
Bette
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by soprano »

Bette wrote:I think that the terms "Higher Self" and "IUOC" are interchangeable. Are they?
No, they are not.

You can model it in your model as IUOC = HS + ...

HS is a subset of an IUOC.

An IUOC is a virtual division of the One Consciousness. Every other divisions are relative and just useful to study the different aspects of an IUOC. If you read and analyze what I posted by Tom you may be able to understand it.

Claudio
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by bette »

soprano wrote:
Bette wrote:I think that the terms "Higher Self" and "IUOC" are interchangeable. Are they?
No, they are not.

You can model it in your model as IUOC = HS + ...

HS is a subset of an IUOC.

An IUOC is a virtual division of the One Consciousness. Every other divisions are relative and just useful to study the different aspects of an IUOC. If you read and analyze what I posted by Tom you may be able to understand it.

Claudio
Okay, progress, thank AUO.
IUOC is a virtual division of The One Consciousness. Are you, Claudio, then saying that Higher Self (each of ours) is the next sub-set, fractally and virtually, of each of our IUOC? Is Claudio, Claudio, to be considered to be the next sub-set of your IUOCs' and is its Higher Self? Is this it Claudio, the best you can do? Is Claudio in fact your Higher Self? Or is Claudio another sub-set fractally removed that may be called a Free Will Awareness Unit, if Tom sees use in that.
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Re: The hard problem of free-will

Post by soprano »

Bette wrote:IUOC is a virtual division of The One Consciousness. Are you, Claudio, then saying that Higher Self (each of ours) is the next sub-set, fractally and virtually, of each of our IUOC? Is Claudio, Claudio, to be considered to be the next sub-set of your IUOCs' and is its Higher Self? Is this it Claudio, the best you can do? Is Claudio in fact your Higher Self? Or is Claudio another sub-set fractally removed that may be called a Free Will Awareness Unit, if Tom sees use in that.
Bette:

No. I am not saying what you are saying. Do you understand what a superset and a subset are? Your arms, head and legs can be seen as subsets of a set called human body. Your human body is then a superset of your head. HS can be considered in comparison the brain of the body. These are all models, but in reality if you can really understand Tom quote I posted (from your questions it seems like you still don't get it) the IUOC is a virtual set of Consciousness. HS can be considered the headquarters or the Command Control Center of the IUOC, the one aspect of the IUOC that controls how all other aspects of the IUOC function and how are their memory access. As Tom says it is not a clear division since it is a division from a functionality aspect, therefore a virtual division, since it is also connected to CS and using CS network capabilities, etc., etc. HS can be considered a subset of an IUOC, like you can be considered a subset of your IUOC. I don't personally like these divisions because they are dynamic. A PMR view tends to separate in parts. I prefer to separate them by functionality. You make use of different aspects and portions of your IUOC depending on what you focus on. When your focus changes to NPMR, different aspects of your IUOC get involved, but some aspects are preserved and hidden from you to optimize the evolution of your IUOC. When I talk to Bette I talk to both your current aspect that focuses in this PMR but also to your total IUOC, both get the message and get affected by it, your focus is a temporary portion and aspect of your entire IUOC. Your entire IUOC is your computer (like Tom said), your focus involves computer programs that you are using at a certain time. Your IUOC computer may run simultaneous programs. Your focus may involve one or more programs at a time but usually not all the ones available to your IUOC. Other programs available to your IUOC may be running without you being aware of them running.

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