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 Post subject: Idealism on the Rise?
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:09 pm 
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I think Idealism seems to be making a comeback,maybe it's because of the strength of the virtual reality metaphor......Here is a philosophy website that readers here might like:


"Furthermore, it isn't Simone's brain that generates her conscious experiences. The brain which she can detect in her head (let's say she has a medical brain-scanner in her room) isn't what's causing her phenomenal experiences to exist. It's the computer which is running her program which gives rise to her consciousness. To ask how the "physical world" which she perceives gives rise to her consciousness is the wrong question. The right question is, how does the computer which underlies the existence of her whole world give rise to her consciousness?"

http://www.unmaterialism.net/Argument.html


Here's another philosopher ,Peter B Lloyd, who came up with a model of reality like MBT in 1999.His book "Consciousness and Berkeley's Metaphysics" is outstanding IMO.

http://www.peterblloyd.org/essays/Menta ... ummary.pdf


The Philosopher John Foster lays out his case in this book:

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/s ... 0199297139


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Thank you for that post, Jeff. I have written to the first author, a Dr. Trevor Thompson from Sydney Australia, who is a Doctor of Philosophy suggesting he visit our Wiki and other sites. Perhaps we will hear from him on the board. I am looking at all three of your references as they fit into a plan of mine for the Wiki with links to various persons who are working on contemporary models with aspects similar to Tom's model of reality and Consciousness. I will write to all of them with similar invitations if I can find addresses. If you can find more, post them here also.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:29 am 
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I have written to Peter B. Lloyd via his Facebook account as I could not find an e-mail address.

John Foster is stated to have died in 2009 according to a brief article in Wikipedia. Clearly the right person based upon his listed publications. The article is being questioned for authentication and there is a question mark by the date of death, possibly because it gives only the year.

John Foster's book, A World For Us is available for download here: http://www.scribd.com/andrei_ciliboae/d ... rld-for-us There is a charge or a requirement that you upload something of your own to them in 'trade'.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:58 am 
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I have read through Trevor Thompson's web site. I find his partial history of philosophy very interesting and also with amusing touches. As George Bernard Shaw said about economists, we could also paraphrase for philosophers: If all the philosophers were laid out end to end, they could not reach a conclusion. I will/am reading the actual works referred to in your post above, Jeff. For the moment, as I see Tom Campbell's work, the model of reality he has created, as still being the bigger picture within which these works can fit. These are all still PMR limited viewpoints (unless there is more in what I have not yet read) which cannot and do not go into why consciousness exists and how it arises. They are attempting to deal with how consciousness or mind relates to PMR reality. The description of the Larger Consciousness System (the arising of Consciousness) and its matching to the perceptions of ancient mysticism and metaphysics (the Void and Indra's Net) still seems unique in Tom's work.

I have not yet figured out how Tom's version/model of reality fits into the classification of philosophical systems normally used. It does not strictly fit as mental monism as in Bishop Berkley's concepts. It draws a distinction between Mind (as we exist as IUOCs and interpret what we are conscious of) and Consciousness (our experience of NPMR and PMR as VRs) as experienced by our minds. What we are conscious of here in PMR is our experiences as provided to us by The Big Computer in creating the VR based upon probability of the 'physicality' per the rule set and as detailed for us by the VRRE integrated with the actions of our and other IUOCs as they interact with each other and the physicality of PMR. Our minds in the model as ourselves as IUOCs are the experiencers and interpreters and 'reactors to' of what comes to us over the RWW. A significant distinction in my opinion, leading to a more complete, integrated model of reality.

More to follow as I work my way through all of this, presuming that I can do so. Formal philosophy is certainly not my field, at least in this life.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:11 am 
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I have not yet figured out how Tom's version/model of reality fits into the classification of philosophical systems normally used
I, also, have been unsuccessful in that effort.


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:48 pm 
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I have read Trevor Thompson's web site pretty thoroughly, his short paper about what his research was about and a little of his dissertation. Just parts of his conclusion and his definition of Phenomenal Representationalism. Quoting from his definition of Phenomenal Represenationalism in his dissertation:
Quote:
Phenomenal Representationalism is the view that our perceptions of the world consist of conscious, phenomenal experiences. We usually take these to be perceptions of the actual external world, or a close approximation thereof. However Phenomenal Representationalism also holds that the world which exists independently of our perceptions/experiences does not necessarily have the same form as the experiences themselves. The form of the external world, which causes our conscious experiences to exist, is unknown to us.
While this describes Tom's model of PMR as a Virtual Reality, it ends with the part highlighted in red. That is, it does not cover the nature of the Consciousness System and the how and why of the creation of this VR for us to experience. This is of course beyond the realm of science and philosophy as now constituted and practiced. It is certainly an impressive dissertation and a good description of Tom's model in terms of academic philosophy.

I have not yet found where Dr. Thompson places his Phenomenal Representationalism in terms of Monism and/or Idealism.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:57 am 
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Ted wrote:

"While this describes Tom's model of PMR as a Virtual Reality, it ends with the part highlighted in red. That is, it does not cover the nature of the Consciousness System and the how and why of the creation of this VR for us to experience. This is of course beyond the realm of science and philosophy as now constituted and practiced. It is certainly an impressive dissertation and a good description of Tom's model in terms of academic philosophy.

I have not yet found where Dr. Thompson places his Phenomenal Representationalism in terms of Monism and/or Idealism."

Ted,
I get the feeling that many do not experience lucid dreams,OBEs,Psi and paranormal phenomena so they are not looking for an explanation.In academics I can imagine that there would be enough hostility towards upsetting physicalist theories already without adding so called 'paranormal' states of consciousness into the mix,you know? I think we can reasonably assume that this may be why they stick to addressing PMR only,which is the dominant aspect in most of our experiences anyway...

I think that one great value in Dr. Thompson's work and others is that they show through logic and reason that the idea of the physical world's existence, independent of mind, is an abstraction and a fiction.This is a huge step that may pave the road for broader acceptence of models like Tom's IMO,so that's why I posted it here.But yeah,it seems like Dr. Thompson's final analysis might be something close to Immanuel Kant's idealism.

Peter Llloyd's stuff on the other hand does go into psi and uses a computer-like model too.For instance,in his first book (I can't afford his second right now- $100-$750!?)he arrives at a model similar to TBC and the RWW,he says it (a "universal consciousness") is "content-addressable with no spatial substrate." There are other areas that overlap too and he touches on some of the controversial problems that have risen on the board here like trees in the woods ,props, and beer cans in refrigerators....so I'm liking his stuff alot.


I just started reading John Foster's book and it is written in very tight philosophical language so it's slow going for me,but it's good so far too.Another value I've found is that these well reasoned arguments help to avoid what they call 'category errors' when discussing physics or neuroscience.This is an easy trap to fall into.....


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:44 am 
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agh...I'm such a safety freak. I have a dissertation coming up in psychology in a couple years which I should pick now. errrrrr...I know I should be safe and do nutrition as related to cognition rather than Consciousness as a nonphysical digital information system.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:41 am 
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Bette,

Remember that dissertations are about getting that magical piece of paper, not about fighting for truth, justice and the American way. They have a lot to do about future employability in an American university system, not much about changing hearts and minds or creating enlightenment.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:51 am 
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I know I should be safe and do nutrition
This does seem like a better choice for employability, to me.

Also what Ted said.


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Yes dears. :)
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Bette

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:17 am 
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I would imagine the PhD would open up some online University teaching work?

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:50 pm 
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I would imagine the PhD would open up some online University teaching work?
I still have to get past the interview part though. I haven't been "in" that part of society for 25 years, working outside of the home, and am not conditioned for "normal" in that way. The M.S. opened the teaching possibility up, but you still have to meet approval of normal people. It will help. It will give me "credibility" because IF I get the degree it means I have made it through an insane process. It will help sell books too, but I have a great book that will be published BEFORE I get the actual degree. The main thing that made me start again was finding out there was a loan available for people who ran out of financial aid before getting their PhD AND a friend on facebook encouraging me by telling me I could then tell anyone calling me or my ideas weird, "That's Dr. Weirdo to you dear." :)
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I LOVE school too.

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