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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:20 am 
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Mike: Mystical traditions have discouraged cultivation of egoic interest in psi, as you say. Some, e.g. some Buddhist schools, also discourage non-egoic involvement, because, they say, psi experiences in NPMR are no more real than everyday PMR. I don't know whether they really believe that, and if they do whether it's just a philosophical position, or a practical safeguard meant to shield people from experiences such as Toby's.

Tom: When “they say, psi experiences in NPMR are no more real than everyday PMR,“ they are absolutely correct. Do they also suggest avoiding PMR experience? Why not if they are essentially equivalent? The point is that experience is the provider of learning opportunities, a catalyst for personal growth — it is the experience of interaction that drives consciousness evolution. I suggest that “they“ go find an uninhabited cave and sit in it, that way they will confuse fewer people. If experience in one reality frame is valuable because of the interaction that can take place there, then why wouldn't experience in a different reality frame offering an entirely dissimilar set of interactions be just as valuable in its own way? One would learn different types of things, have different opportunities and different challenges in each frame. If one can handle it productively, implementing parallel but mutually reinforcing growth paths sounds like a plus to me — if one cannot handle it productively, then there is justification for discouraging an attempt to do so.

Mike: You are convinced by your experiences, in a way that I have not been able to be convinced by mine.

Tom: That is exactly as it should be. All experience is subjective, thus "Proof" must be in the eye (awareness generated by experience) of the beholder. Because consciousness is personal, experience is personal, and thus “Proof“ is personal. There is no, can be no, direct physical proof of nonphysical (consciousness) phenomena — although there can be indirect (e.g., statistical) proof). The subsystem cannot logically describe the system. The tiny little piece called a minor subset cannot prove or disprove the content of the entire set. Denying that the complete set exists (or that it has content that is greater than what exists within the tiny little subset) because the content of the complete set cannot be derived from the limited content of the subset is illogical — and obviously so. The common belief that Psi (nonphysical) phenomena do not exist because they cannot be scientifically (physically) proven —is irrational nonsense even though it represents a common belief of the majority. I have no personal experience of psi, thus Psi (nonphysical) phenomena may or may not exist since conventional hard science (physical verification) is theoretically unable to directly prove or disprove its existence — that is NOT an illogical statement even though it is a bit naive and not exactly true.

Mike: Having been told “go away and don't come back“, as you say, that may have been an intended effect of my interaction with NPMR. So I really shouldn't take up any more of your bandwidth. Thanks all the same. I really enjoyed MBT, and will reread it.

Tom: That you were told to go away by one individual or one group of individuals in one very specific circumstance has nothing whatsoever to do with what you should do or attempt to do with the rest of your existence. That’s like: “somebody disagreed with me so I will never speak again“ — not a very productive attitude.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:40 am 
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Tom

You're right, I was left with a sinister weird feeling - a 'keep out' sign that's still there in some respects. And an experience that I was unable to talk about for fear of being taken for an alien abductee. A lot of things like that happened after I'd been in touch with Idries Shah, whose books had interested me. I was never able to tell if the psi events were related to his activities, and he certainly didn't answer queries about experiences like that from people like me...

Back in the present, a funny thing happened while I was reading MBT for the first time, which led to my original query. Moving some enormous bookshelves, I found a heavy-duty flat steel crossbrace that had been bent laterally by the weight of the books years ago. I remembered I just screwed it at 3 points, as fixing it would have meant getting a vice and a tube to lever it. Just looking at it, concentrating with the lightest of fingertip pressure, it magically became straight as a ruler again, lining up exactly with the original screwhole. It took a few days for the reality of that to sink in.

Keep up the good work, and best wishes for 2008
Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:25 am 
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Monty,

I am glad you have found our exchange helpful. When exploring NPMR without much experience, it is easy to make more or less of something than it really deserves. Don't let that rejection experience with those particular NPMR beings stifle you -- it was an isolated event that means nothing in a larger context.

It is my opinion that many "alien encounters" are simply spontaneous interconnected experiences within two different reality frames. The individual cannot separate the frames because they are both equally "real", thus, with no understanding of the larger reality, he naturally interprets experience in all frames as happening in PMR. Such parallel processing in multiple frames simultaneously or skipping back and forth between frames is relatively easy to do. Psi phenomena often seem to occur spontaneously as individuals minds drift in and out of receptivity -- then comes the interpretation as those experiences are force fit into the limited reality of the experiencer. Real experiences within multiple reality frames forced to fit within a PMR-only physical reality context cannot help but produce strange stories.

TomC


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:29 pm 
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Tom

Our exchange was more than 'helpful' - it really allows me to put something behind me that I failed to understand after many years of wondering what happened. I even wondered if such events were a normal corollary of meditation - in which case why did noone mention them? The 'deal' you spoke of was never clear to me then, as there was a lot of trickster-type stuff going on that I found hard to navigate, and I can't recall it now.

And I thought things like that only happened to other people...

Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:27 pm 
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Monty,

You have no doubt encountered sinister trickster types and individuals with little integrity in your PMR experience. There are hustlers everywhere. But you don't let those experiences determine or even influence the rest of your life to any appreciable extent. You deal with it, you are careful in your interactions, you use common sense, accept certain amounts of risk (like walking in a park or driving a car) and everything works just fine. When it doesn't, you deal with it as best as you can. This is called life and experience and it is pretty much the same all over, whatever virtual reality (PMR or NPMR) frame you are playing in.

Glad you have been able to put that discomforting experience behind you and get on with whatever comes next. The game of existence, well played, requires courage. Same with the game of evolution. Fortunately, growing up in the Big Picture is not a timed test -- we have plenty of time to figure it out and get ourselves unstuck and go on. That's called pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:40 am 
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Just a little report for everyone...

I am halfway through the trilogy and after my first post and toms words, I have really released alot of wasteful fear. Just basic simple fear of something that was keeping me from seeing a WAY larger picture than I could ever imagine. Even growing up is a "Christian" household, I was certian I had the metaphysical side of things figured out.

My progress is steady. I'm not finding answers that I "enjoy", but that's the point and it's making the journey WAY better than I thought possible.


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