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 Post subject: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:32 am 
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Well I have a lot of gold stars, and a bleeding ulcer from to much aspirin :P

Much of what you've written in MBT I had recently learned. However your definition of ego was different from mine, and would like to work on that a little more if we could.

My background is in religion, and if you go back to 8,8,88 you'll notice where it began. Up to about a few years ago I was slowly struggling to understand the truth within Christianity. Once you seriously start to dig, with an open mind, you'll begin to have a lot of questions, and doubts about your faith. It culminated one day in utter frustration how others wouldn't bother to deeply look into criticisms, and questions of those who were outside, and within. It was like a sea full of seagulls squawking away as if they new the truth, and all other views were wrong without ever giving them any thought. That day I thought to myself "I will know the truth, and tell them all in such a way that they couldn't deny it" to end their incessant squawking. Shortly there after I got a "download". It dealt with Revelations, which was odd do to the fact it was given up some time before for reasons of escapism. Didn't want anything to do with it for those reasons. Throughout the experience I "heard" two things... "I'm without limit", "killer of ego", or something close to that. "I'm without limit" made sense in that I assumed it was the Holy Spirit identifying who was doing the downloading. Ego however is not something you will find, least I couldn't, in the bible. Eastern religions had more to say about the ego, yet the best I could come up with was "self-importance". It seems to answer where pride, greed, malice, etc. derived from.

The primary reason for buying MBT was to know more about ego. You explained it as a mechanism to protect us from fear. If this is correct, then we need to focus more on ending our fears (as you've said). Yet if ego erects a wall around those fears, how are we to know what they are... other than the monster in the closet? It seems that my ego has made me forget even what they were. For the most part, in the effort of killing the ego, has been in understanding limitations. I call it bias, or more favorably "living inside a box". By knowing my own bias, I can observe things with it, and then without it. It's helped in reducing ego, and removing belief traps. BUT! it seems that I need something more. Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

Is there away to know our true intent? Through observation of others, and myself, it became obvious at times that our stated intent wasn't the true intent. For example... Someone asked me for help, I agreed too, and did. Later I needed help, and asked the person who received my help. They, however, didn't, which caused me to be angry, and regretful of ever helping them. If my true intent was help, then I would never expect repayment. Again, is there a way to boost that observation/awareness, or do I just keep picking away at it?

Not sure if this is possible, but there is a desire to be Truth in and of itself. It's not enough to know the truth, but to become the very essence of it. Not only Truth, but also to become Humility, Patients, Love, Forgiveness, Charity, Kindness, etc. They all seem to be one in the same to me, things without pride, greed, ego, etc. Maybe I'm off base, but it seems to be something well worth the effort to do.

Welp, I have a billion questions like do I have "The One", what the heck does Shinoki (Shin-no-key) mean, and how do I become a MAD scientist!? Those I'll figure out later, but do wish to thank you for your efforts in writing MBT. I know it's the next step for me, lets see what becomes of it.

Shin


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:36 pm 
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Shin,

Tom: The statement: "I'm without limit" was about what you are, a fundamental description of the nature of consciousness; while: "killer of ego" was a description of what you needed to do to become the former (a being without limit). A very nice summary of the larger reality in six words.

Shin: Yet if ego erects a wall around those fears, how are we to know what they are... other than the monster in the closet? It seems that my ego has made me forget even what they were. For the most part, in the effort of killing the ego, has been in understanding limitations. I call it bias, or more favorably "living inside a box". By knowing my own bias, I can observe things with it, and then without it. It's helped in reducing ego, and removing belief traps. BUT! it seems that I need something more. Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

Tom: Becoming aware of belief traps, ego, and fear (all aspects of the same thing: the antithesis of love) is extremely difficult. There are no short cuts, its about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps one increment at a time. Constant pressure yields steady results. The fact that you have come so far in a few short years indicates that you are already quite adept at pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Just keep at it. Growing up enough to succeed at tracking down Big Truth appears to be something at which you excel.

Shin: Not sure if this is possible, but there is a desire to be Truth in and of itself. It's not enough to know the truth, but to become the very essence of it. Not only Truth, but also to become Humility, Patients, Love, Forgiveness, Charity, Kindness, etc. They all seem to be one in the same to me, things without pride, greed, ego, etc. Maybe I'm off base, but it seems to be something well worth the effort to do.

Tom: Of course, it's not only possible, it is the point and goal of your existence. You have succinctly stated the purpose of our being in the paragraph above; however, don't expect to arrive at that destination tomorrow. A smaller reality/awareness cannot see, or even imagine very clearly, the larger reality/awareness into which it must grow. That is why bootstrapping (growth) is such a slow incremental process. That is also why there are no short cuts and others are of limited help. You have to do it on your own, beyond the intellect, steadily pursuing Big Truth with a skeptical but open mind.

Shin: Well, I have a billion questions like do I have "The One", what the heck does Shinoki (Shin-no-key) mean, and how do I become a MAD scientist!? Those I'll figure out later, but do wish to thank you for your efforts in writing MBT. I know it's the next step for me, lets see what becomes of it.

Tom: All those questions will eventually answer themselves in their own way when you are ready to live the answers profitably.

My only advice: Become a scientist first and then go MAD, it's easier that way.

Indeed, let's see what you make of it. That's all that can be done by either of us.

Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:53 am 
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Tom thank you for replying.

Forgot to ask about our purpose here, or more accurately why did we enroll in to this PMR. Over time, and with effort, can learn this reason, but I was wondering if we can learn why others have? Maybe through NPMR?

The reason I ask is motivation. When I'm responsible for myself there seems to be a lack of motivation. Conversely when I'm responsible for someone else I tend to take action, least I like to think so. Maybe it stems from fractals. Before reading MBT I viewed fractals as organs within a cell, cells make up organs, organs make up the body, bodies make up society. The same pattern existed at different levels. If we are merely a cell/fractal then it would behove us to first become aware of the greater hole to properly participate within that hole. Once done assisting other cells/fractals to be aware of the same thing should be our next step. As we individually mature so does the hole. When I step back to see the greater picture I no longer matter. What does matter is the greater picture, or self. Sorry, having a hard time express my thoughts on this.

Been thinking about a post by Savoir on suffering of others. When one causes another to suffer in the greater picture he/she is not only causing suffering to that individual, but also to the hole. Not only that, but when the hole suffers so does that individual who caused the suffering to begin with. This is all based on your explanation of fractals.

Sorry for headache, and thanks again.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:35 am 
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Shin,

I thought MBT was clear on that point. One enrolls in PMR to grow, learn, and evolve, as well as help the larger consciousness system to grow, learn, and evolve by lowering system entropy as one lowers one's own personal entropy (the consciousness cycle). That is the same for everyone in all realities (though all are not cooperatively working toward that goal, most are) -- it is the nature of our system -- we do that because that is what we do, what we are designed/created/evolved to do. Why do PMR entities reproduce and try to survive? That is what they evolved to do, it is the nature of their reality system -- it is not primarily an intellectual choice. Again, although all are not cooperatively working toward the survival/propagation goal (we have free will), most are.

You are correct. Because we are all one in the big picture (long term), what we do to affect others ends up affecting ourselves and vice versa. What happens in the little picture (short term) is here today and gone tomorrow. There is no lasting value to the actions taken in PMR except as they represent intent/being/quality accumulating in the big picture.

Most often, the best thing one can do to help others grow and evolve is to raise your own personal quality of consciousness. Because you can directly only change yourself, the best way to help others make positive changes in themselves is by demonstrating the possibilities and advantages with your own life.

Tom


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Just ignore me, I'm like a kid who's just found something extremely exciting. So exciting that he starts showing it off, and asks questions about it without giving much thought to what he's doing lol.

I am uncertain about things, such as PSI effects, NPMR, what should I do here, or about this, who's in charge (Big Cheese), would I get into trouble if I did this or that. BUT! I know better, as in the best lessons learned stemmed from my worst mistakes. I'll figure it out the hard way as I always do. You'll know about it when some little kid runs up to you in NPMR shouting "Uncle Tom Uncle Tom look what I found, isn't it neat!" :)

See you on the other side.

Shin


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:09 pm 
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Shin,

You are not alone in that boat. It is easy to come away from MBT with a buzz that is bursting to find expression. A little self-indulgence sometimes flows from the excitement of discovery. Though that reaction is reasonably common, your degree of self-awareness and honesty are not.

You are correct, the discovery of Big Truth comes from experience, not from intellectualizing about Big Truth. Good luck with your search, may you find the calm that comes with prideless knowing. Self-awareness and honesty are good indicators of eventual success. Keep after it and you are likely to succeed to a greater extent than you thought possible.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:22 am 
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Got to thinking that fear and pain are much the same. Is fear a form of pain to the consciousness? I suspect that hour PMR bodies have the same basic characteristics as our NPMR consciousness. If this is true fear is necessary, as much as pain is in telling us something is wrong with our bodies. To much pain and one will lose control. In that sense, to much fear will cause one to lose control. So ego becomes a necessary component to hinder the effect of losing control do to too much fear. The infant consciousness has a considerable amount of fear of the unknown, do to the limited experience. Without ego to guard against "breakdown" do to overwhelming fear, a consciousness could never evolve. As one matures it sets aside the component of ego, no longer needing it.

Off base, on target, or somewhere in the middle?

Thanks in advance.

Shin.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:27 pm 
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Shin,

Well put -- a very good observation.
I like your analogy -- it is a productive one from a system perspective. I think your juxtaposition of ego and pain provides some insight and perspective to the process I have called the "consciousness cycle".

An aside: Language in general, and the English Language in particular, is a difficult communication media when discussing the larger reality system. Language is based upon analogy and symbol which are much better at conveying general meaning than precise meaning. Accuracy falls through the crack of personal interpretation which is predicated on an individual's unique experience. If words convey a useful conceptualization to others, then those words are productive. Nitpicking the details to expose a lack of absolute or logical precision is an exercise of ego in a game of one-upmanship. Searching for useful meaning is, more often than not, time better spent than searching for flaws.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:55 am 
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I'd just like to add some of my own rote to this discussion if I may.

Shin: "Yet if ego erects a wall around those fears, how are we to know what they are... other than the monster in the closet? It seems that my ego has made me forget even what they were. For the most part, in the effort of killing the ego, has been in understanding limitations. I call it bias, or more favorably "living inside a box". By knowing my own bias, I can observe things with it, and then without it. It's helped in reducing ego, and removing belief traps. BUT! it seems that I need something more. Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated."

Myth: You know what they are because when ‘they' are triggered (usually by PMR stimulus), their presence is immediately felt or perceived by your emotional and/or mental sensory system.

Try the following experiment to verify this for yourself:

Bring to your attention a thought, memory, or experience that /makes you/ feel uneasy, inferior, self-conscious, afraid, doubtful (of yourself), apprehensive etc (all examples of fear).

[Side note: If you can't recall or think of anything that bothers you at the feeling level, then either you're already completely fearless/without ego (unlikely), or you're unconsciously blocking yourself from perceiving your own fears. To workaround this, I've found that defining your intents and purposes very clearly (and continuing to do so whenever necessary) helps a lot. It simply allows you to measure/compare every thought or emotion that pops into your awareness throughout the day that is not in alignment with your intents and purposes. Then you can choose to either allow or disallow that energy to remain present in your attention.]

If you've done the above experiment properly, then congratulations, you've just triggered an egoic response. And why is this useful? Well, if you have the ability to consciously trigger an ego response in yourself (or in another - veryyyyy easy to do!), then it's only a matter of also learning how to use your consciousness/attention to dismantle your egoic responses the moment they've been triggered. For me, i've found that the trick here is to just be present enough so that when an ego response arises within you, you can observe its reaction like one would observe a small child throwing a tantrum (i.e. demanding attention). Initially, the practice may seem quite tricky at first - as I myself have found - and you may only be able to catch yourself caught in an egoic pattern AFTER the ego has taken your attention (without your conscious consent!). But eventually you will begin to notice it DURING, then JUST BEFORE, then LIKE NEVER BEFORE ;-). Doing it like this, you can make a conscious choice to redirect your attention to something you consider to be more productive to your intents and purposes. And eventually this will just become your default/automatic pattern.

I hope this helps you lower your entropy.

All the best :-)

_________________
"If you perceive ego in another, be sure to mind your own."


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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:00 am 
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In addition to my above post, I thought it would only be fitting to include a brief description/map/pointer of what "presence" is like.

This is a short excerpt of a dialogue between Eckhart Tolle and an inquirer re/ presence:

Tolle: "You can't think about Presence and the mind can't understand it. Understanding Presence is Being Present."

[Side note: To me, this parallels what Tom is saying re/ that you cannot understand the superset from within the subset.. you can only experience it directly. Period.]

Tolle: "Try a little experiment. Close your eyes and say to yourself "I wonder what my next thought is going to be." Then become very alert and wait for the next thought. Be like a cat watching a mouse hole. What thought is going to come out of the mouse hole? Try it now."

Tolle: Well?

Student: "I had to wait a long time before a thought came in."

Tolle: "Exactly. As long as you are in a state of intense presence, you are free of thought. You are still, yet highly alert. The instant your conscious attention sinks below a certain level, thought rushes in. The mental noise returns, thought rushes in, the stillness is lost. You are back in time."

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"If you perceive ego in another, be sure to mind your own."


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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:29 pm 
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This wondering what my next thought will be seems useful. Tom, what do you think of this technique for helping someone experience no thought, in general. I can almost hear your response, if it works, use it. I'll ask anyway.

Thank you

Love
Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:38 pm 
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Bette,

If it works, use it.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:18 am 
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Looking for verification on this...

Bob says there are "Belief rings" around earth in NPMR. His possible future indicated that these rings were gone, and a new more efficient system was in place. It had only one ring. It's got me thinking that "Belief traps" are nothing more than an elaborate way of saying ego. The way I understand it is that Fear generates ego, ego is created to reduce the anxieties caused by fear. The method, or actual reduction of anxiety by ego is called Belief Trap. Fear is generated by "Unknown", wile Belief Trap becomes a "Known" (pseudo known) created by the ego to replace the Unknown. There by reducing the anxiety caused by fear. The problem arises when it's not founded in Truth, so discrepancies occur. Discrepancies = Unknown which causes Fear, which ego steps in and creates a Belief Trap which has holes (discrepancies) and the vicious cycle never ends.


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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 am 
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I look forward to Tom's reply too. I think of ego as caging fear, fears container, as ego is dissolved the fear dissolves too?
Ignorance=lack of knowledge=fear
Knowledge=lack of ignorance=lack of fear
lack of fear=love
Some thoughts.
Love
Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Killer of ego
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:31 pm 
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Shin and Bette, yes, you are both right. Fear is fundamental -- it is the opposite of love, which is also fundamental. Fear manifests itself in your thoughts, intents, and choices in many ways (all related to each other) -- ego, expectations, needs, wants, and desires are all interrelated, self focused (vector pointing inward), and generated by fear.

Bob's description is a metaphor not a fact -- it is a way of conceptualizing and communicating something significant that cannot be accurately described directly for a PMR perspective.

Tom


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