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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Dear Tom,
I need help. My long term goal is to be a nurse practitioner, specializing in family counseling. I've read many books (and websites) that deal with sociopaths, predators, serial rapists, serial killers. Examples: The Fritzl Case, Gary Michael Heidnik, Ted Bundy, Cameron Hooker, Charles Manson, Dennis Rader, Jeffrey Dahmer, Aileen Wuornos, etc. (see wikipedia.com) I don't read these books like other people do. Please hear my motivation. an engineer studies high-level math, an architect studies blue prints, a computer programmer studies code, a musician studies Beethoven, an artist studies Rembrandt, a doctor studies the human body, and I study really ____-up people.

One of the top 10 books I've ever read is by author Anna Salter (see amazon.com), who has spent her career studying pedophiles (child molesters). She writes that there are boys who, at age 12, look at a photo of the Olson twins or Miley Cyrus and think, "not sexy" and then look at a photo of a 3 year old and think "now that's sexy!" Many adult men started to show signs of being a pedophile when they hit puberty. At age 15, when other boys were "turned-on" by photos of naked women in Playboy, these boys were "turned-on" by naked photos of a 5 year old girl. No one had to tell them the 5 year old was sexy. It is their natural desire. Other authors talk of boys who had a natural desire to torture animals.

To be clear. I'm NOT talking about 99.5% of "bad guys," where a boy was neglected or abused, and grew up to be a violent man. I understand those cases. I AM talking about ½ of 1% of "bad guys." A boy grows up in a loving home, with support, compassion, respect, kindness, and turns into a "monster" as an adult. What I'm reading from the experts is. in the same way one person is naturally good at sports, another person is naturally good at accounting, another at fixing cars, another at public speaking, etc. some humans have a built-in desire to get "turned-on" by hurting others. No one teaches it to them, IT'S A BUILT-IN NATURAL DESIRE.

Tom, I saw your lectures on youtube, heard your talks on radio shows, ordered the trilogy, am waiting for it to arrive, & am excited to read it. THANK YOU for creating the discussion groups. I've read other posts on this forum that talk about "evil" and "the devil." My question is very specific. How would you, and yourBT, explain that ½ of 1%? How can the universe create people with a built-in desire to torture? How can a victim's soul grow spiritually by being chained, beaten, stabbed, and raped, sometimes for months or years on end? At some point, doesn't the universe say, "enough is enough?" These are really tough questions, and the best answers the experts can give seems to be "no one knows why." Please help me understand. Thank you. - Lisa ;-)


Last edited by LisaFutureTherapist on Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Hi Lisa
Welcome to Tom's discussion group. I'm also a student of psychology because why people do what they do interests me to no end. I'm working, or I should be, on my masters thesis on gang violence right now. I'll be almost as interested as you will be to see Toms answer to your question. My off the cuff answer is, it takes all kinds.
Love to you and yours
Bette

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Lisa: My question is very specific. How would you, and your BT, explain that ½ of 1%? How can the universe create people with a built-in desire to torture? How can a victim's soul grow spiritually by being chained, beaten, stabbed, and raped, sometimes for months or years on end? At some point, doesn't the universe say, "enough is enough?" These are really tough questions, and the best answers the experts can give seems to be "no one knows why." Please help me understand.

Tom: Such dysfunction is not one dimensional, there are many possible contributing factors. That it only happens to 1/2 of 1 % of the "bad guys" (a probability of 0.005 -- thus perhaps a probability of only 0.00005 within the general population) tells you that it is the result of an extremely unlikely combination of factors.

1) A large portion of our personality, how we interpret data, and what rings our bell (drives us to action, turns us on, upsets us, encourages our attitudes, set us off, piques our interest, captures our attention, makes us feel good or feel bad) is biologically influenced. A consciousness gets a body/brain that must exists and develop according to the PMR rule set. Within that physical process there is much randomness (notice 6 billion people and they are all different). There is interactive feedback between the environment and the body/brain -- each changing the other. The brain modifies how the entity interprets its reality while the environment causes the brain to modify itself in adaptation to the environment. In other words, the brain changes the perceived environment and the perceived environment [both experience based (love, trauma, fear, etc) and bio chemically based (drugs, pollution, food additives, allergens, glandular dysfunction, etc.) changes the functioning of the brain. Sometimes that randomness (which includes the possibility of combining just the wrong series of environment-brain interactions at just the wrong series of times) produces a dysfunctional being who has a much higher potential than normal to become a monster. Bottom line: it is not just a corrosive environment that raises one's potential to become a monster. The environment is usually not even the dominate influence. Environment, biology and chance conspire to only very occasionally produce a seriously elevated potential to become a monster. It is not surprising that some of these monsters come from what appears to be a very benign environment (at least it appears that way from a very coarse, after-the-fact examination that must necessarily miss (because of the passage of time) most of the important developmental detail). In fact, it would be very strange indeed if none of these monsters came from benign (good) environments.

2) The consciousness that inhabits the body/brain must work with what it gets from these random interactions -- once committed it is in for the duration of the experience packet -- however long or short that might be. If an entity gets dealt a bad hand by chance, then, all the more the challenge -- and at worse, hey, it's not often you will draw a 1 in 20,000 card .... and it's just one experience packet -- there are a thousand more of those where that one came from -- no big deal, just do the best you can with what you get, maybe next time you will get a piece of cake. In evaluating your score, the system allows for the difficulty of the game you are playing. You know, suck it up....cookies sometimes crumble. Now a more evolved consciousness will be able to deal more effectively with the challenge -- it might be able to reprogram the brain and apply great inner strength to resist and nullify the dysfunctional proclivities that come with the body/brain. Unfortunately, because of the elementary school nature of PMR, highly evolved consciousnesses are a rare breed and with a little more bad luck (more of that chance we were talking about in 1 above) a real weak low life individuated unit of consciousness (already failing to learn or perhaps de-evolving in previous packets) happens to get connected with this high monster potential. The environment may actually be all peace and light but this ill prepared puppy is all but doomed to go bad no matter how much "guidance" and help it gets. That's free will and chance in the PMR game -- you gotta let it unravel however it does and do the best you can. Outside interference in the game once the game has started is a no-no. Rules are rules.

3) So the 0.00005 (1 in 20,000 of the general population) monster is loose -- what about the rest of us? The fact is, such a person generates lots of lessons for hundreds if not thousands of the rest of us as he leaves destruction in his wake. And what about those hurt or destroyed? The answer is just the other side of that same crumbling cookie the perpetrator had to accept. For highly developed consciousnesses there is a difficult but high gain lesson to maintain fearlessness and a loving, caring intent and turn the encounter with the monster into something positive in the big picture. [Because that is hard to imagine, here is an example: read Victor Frankel's book, "Man's Search For Meaning". As a Jew in Auschwitz and other death-camps, he received an up close and personal encounter with a multitude of five star monsters as well as having to deal with the murder of his wife and family. He turned all that into a positive personal learning experience and eventually used that experience to help many others.] For less evolved individuated units of consciousness, the trauma is mitigated to the extent possible by those in NPMR so as to minimize lasting effects. Again, keep in mind that this is just one experience packet among thousands and it fades to dream status very quickly under normal circumstances and even quicker than that under the help received in NPMR. Being terminated from PMR by some monster would be similar to waking up from a barely remembered nightmare. It would be a little inconvenient (a minor waste of time) if one's experience packet was ended prematurely but, there's always another. Just like the perpetrator, the victim must also accept that sometimes the cookie crumbles, suck up the misfortune of drawing a 1 in 20,000 card, and go on. Jeez, for crying out loud, it's just a simulator for gaining experience. You are jarred to your bones by such a horrific tragedy because of your little picture PMR perspective -- which is good -- that's the perspective you are supposed to have while in PMR.

Now combine all three paragraphs in various amounts and degrees of each and you get a Big Picture of an unpleasant set of circumstances that must play themselves out because that is how PMR must work in order to be effective. After you have read all three books, this discussion will probably make more sense and be much clearer. Hope this helps.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:00 am 
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Professor Campbell (twcjr): THANK YOU for responding a few hours after I asked my question. I'm delighted and encouraged by your eagerness to make answering my question a priority in your life. I appreciate your help.

THANK YOU for posting vidoes on youtube. That's how I found you. A request. please consider taking the questions asked on these discussion boards, and using them to create "interview" videos on youtube. Someone could be sitting there, asking you questions, and you could be sitting there, answering them. I would really enjoy that. Mahalo. --Lisa ;-)


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:15 am 
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Bette: I'm glad I asked the question. Hope you gain something by reading Tom's answer.

Professor Campbell: Of any answer I've been given in my lifetime, YOUR ANSWER MAKES THE MOST SENSE TO ME. Thank you for helping me understand.

One part of me asks, "Why does physical reality (PMR) and non physical reality (NPMR) work that way?" Another part of me answers, "It is what it is. Stop questioning it. Just accept it." After reading your post, I am grateful that with the current rules, the "monsters" are (for example) 1 in 20,000, and not 1 in 200. Mahalo. - Lisa


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:36 am 
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Lisa,

Once you have received, read and then hopefully studied the My Big Toe trilogy, you will have the answer. But in short, PMR and NPMR are virtual realities. That is they are generated within our minds by an incoming data stream as opposed to being 'out there'. Our minds are us as we really exist in digital consciousness reality. Virtual realities are based upon 'rule sets' that establish the different realities that govern within the different PMRs and NPMRs that exist within Consciousness Space. This is discussed in many places within these forums, including the incomplete sections at the bottom of the Board index screen where there is the beginnings of a FAQ section and acronym and terminology section. All of this will make much more sense to you after you become familiar with MBT.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:03 am 
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This thread is intriguing and Tom's response was very insightful, as always. Amazon seems to have a lot of used copies of "Man's Search For Meaning", I am about to pick up a copy. Thanks for the recommendation.


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:46 am 
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Quote:
This thread is intriguing and Tom's response was very insightful, as always. Amazon seems to have a lot of used copies of "Man's Search For Meaning", I am about to pick up a copy. Thanks for the recommendation.
I did one of my first psychology papers on this book, a great book.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Lisa,

I am pleased you found value in my answer -- that is the point. Knowledge is good but shared knowledge is much better. Actually, now that I think about it, there are several points. If one has the unmitigated gall and temerity to claim discovery, or at least knowledge, of a genuine theory of EVERYTHING then he/she had better be able to provide a good solid answer to EVERY question that can be asked. If he/she cannot, then that points to a failure of the theory and a need for that theory to accept its limitations or expand its understanding. Any good theorist is constantly searching for flaws and limitations in his/her theory - the only way to do that is to meet the challenge of providing good solid answers to all questions within a public forum.

Unfortunately, I am not always so responsive; you just happened to catch me at a good time. This past week I have been enjoying a short temporary lull in my day job at NASA. So, yes, I do make answering your question a priority in my life.. along with taking care of and interacting with my family, my day job, and preparing for lectures and workshops.

The point of all the above is to provide the context for addressing your request. You have a terrific idea - shared knowledge is useful knowledge -- and sharing creates more and more of those valuable questions. Though your request resonates strongly with where I want to go with MBT, the issue is time. Though I can parallel process within multiple reality frames, because of the psi uncertainty principle, I am more or less stuck with just me in this one. These MBT forums have the core material necessary for another book - a very helpful book that addresses people's individual questions and issues much better than the MBT trilogy does. Organizing and laying that book out initially in terms of a series of YouTube videos or audio segments is a wonderful idea. However, I will need to wait until the just-right someone steps forward to do much of the work required, or, more likely, wait until the MBT trilogy becomes successful enough to first break even and then eventually liberate me from the day job. All will unfold in its own time.

In fact, with the help of Carle, a forum participant, I hope to soon start work producing an audio version of MBT - those audio segments, a chapter at a time, would also make good posts on YouTube if someone could add some pictures and music like "duran08" did with my Coast to Coast AM radio interview.

The day is young yet - MBT, still largely unknown, is, at this point, just a baby barely able to toddle - more potential than actuality. Because truth is not only not fragile, but also difficult to suppress, I have high hopes that your request will be more than met in the months and years ahead.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Tom,

I would say that in excess of 95% of the people on the planet could not handle the clear cut, cold, scientific and emotionless way in which your description plays out. I would have preferred a little bit of sugar or love in the explanation.

However, that form of explanation forces the one's who have the intuition, capacity and quality of consciousness to be willing and/or able to embrace the big picture on these types of terms.

The rest will just run back into their belief trap holes never to return again. It's Not for the average catholic or anyone with deep belief traps. I would suppose that they would fight against this description with all they have.


OM


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 7:05 am 
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Quote:

Our minds are us as we really exist in digital consciousness reality.

Ted
Thanks Ted. That sentence popped out at me . I figure that I knew this but maybe sometimes it needs that last strike of the hammer to hit home ;-)
If you understand that we are our minds then a lot of questions are answered.
Simple in a way.


thanks,
Peter

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:30 am 
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I would say that in excess of 95% of the people on the planet could not handle the clear cut, cold, scientific and emotionless way in which your description plays out. I would have preferred a little bit of sugar or love in the explanation.
OM
First time I was reading MBT, I would have preferred a little bit less technical and more personal explanation. Now I am reading it second time, almost finished book 2, part 3. I am much more comfortable with physic/computer and other technical explanations. What is even more important to me, MBT appears to be very personal and I laugh quite often this time. I hope that my ego did step back or shrank a tiny, itsy-bitsy, minuscule bit. I don't know any other reasons why MBT feels different and much more easy to read at this time.

Lena

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:50 am 
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Peter (and you too, Lena),

That is the way things are. One of the key concepts of Zen, in my understanding. Suddenly you see something in just the right way, from the right angle as it were, and it suddenly makes a great deal of difference in understanding and frequently allows you to suddenly understand a virtual avalanche of other concepts. It is my understanding that it was common for a student of Zen who made a break through on a koan to suddenly have an insight into many other Zen koans and Zen concepts in general. That is part of the value of these Bulletin Board based forums. Every now and then someone asks just the right question and it is answered in just the right way to provide valuable insight to many. No set of books, even MBT with all the effort Tom put into providing as many statements of the same thing from different viewpoints, can hit just the right 'master key' to open the understanding of everyone. We all have different developmental histories and experiences which form the basis for our understanding of new experiences. The lowering of entropy amounts to the broadening and deepening of this experience, resulting in a more universal and 'streamlined' understanding, so that we have a more universal understanding as a basis of communication. Less disparate pieces and more a unified understanding. This fits in well with the article Bette brought in with the research where neural nets were trained to control soccer playing robots. Just the right statement of a concept can trigger changes in our mind/neural net to suddenly make a great many 'connections' possible. This to me also fits the conception of a gestalt where once you 'get it', you see the greater concept that is there uniting all of the individual pieces and magnifying it beyond just the isolated individual pieces to which you are limited in just an intellectual understanding.

I know that this may sound like rambling or incoherence to many, but perhaps with the increase in understanding that you just reported from a simple but slightly different statement of something which you 'knew' already, you at least will understand.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:04 pm 
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I understand what you are saying Ted, and it fits into what Will1987 is saying over in his entropy, correlation chains post. Our experience with everything builds what the key or keys will be, very Vygotsky-like. Follow the threads for meaning to see how we form our self here. Now that's rambling. ;)
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Quote:
It is my understanding that it was common for a student of Zen who made a break through on a koan to suddenly have an insight into many other Zen koans and Zen concepts in general. That is part of the value of these Bulletin Board based forums. Every now and then someone asks just the right question and it is answered in just the right way to provide valuable insight to many. No set of books, even MBT with all the effort Tom put into providing as many statements of the same thing from different viewpoints, can hit just the right 'master key' to open the understanding of everyone. We all have different developmental histories and experiences which form the basis for our understanding of new experiences.
Ted
Thank you, Ted. It is very supportive and gives much hope to me. Definitely these Forums are an endless source of information and inspiration, and much more. People from all walks of life coming here and share their thoughts, ideas, achievements. How wonderful it is. I may be sound as an exalted New Age follower, but I am not like that at all. ;-)) I would write it in Russian next time to be more down to earth. :-))

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