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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:01 am 
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Hi Tom, Hi Everyone.

Just about finished the My Big Toe Trilogy. I really want to thank you for writing this. It is resonating with me greatly. I have a question for you and all the others here on the MBT discussions board.

What exactly is going on when we test food, herbs, or a specially processed device with "muscle testing" or strength and balance tests?

Sometimes it is called "Applied Kinesiology" or AK for short. Here is a link about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology

Looking forward to seeing you in The Path Series: Afterlife.

Steve

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Last edited by Steve on Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:07 am 
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Steve,

Provide a link so that we can see what you are talking about. You have not said whether you are talking herbs, normal food, something to drink, special processing or whatever. "Quantum Energy Products" is only a slogan for advertising purposes as far as making a meaningful statement. It has no meaning in Physics terms. Having provided no real information, there is no way to answer any of your questions.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:19 am 
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I guess I am asking how the phenomenon of muscle testing works.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:35 am 
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Steve,

Sorry, but without your providing some kind of reference to what you are talking about, how can anyone answer this question? Muscle testing is not some kind of standard terminology that we automatically know what you mean. You must supply information describing this or some kind of link that tells us what you are talking about. Are you talking about an individual muscle fiber or perhaps the muscles in someone's leg? Are you talking about testing the contractile strength? You must have some kind of context for the phrase "muscle testing". Otherwise, how can anyone answer your question? I am not trying to be difficult. You simply are not supplying sufficient information to understand your question and answer it.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Sorry, here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology

I am trying to understand the substance, energy, consciouness connection behind AK or Applied Kinesiology.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Steve,

Perhaps Tom will have more to say on this, but here is my view. This is another PMR based viewpoint just like the concepts of Chi or Ki and chakras that are discussed by many. What is the meaning of the meridians and points of acupuncture, especially when they cannot be scientifically demonstrated in bodily or neural structures? What is the meaning of the rising of Kundalini? 'Pure' science puts applied kinesiology down as pseudo science, as well as these other viewpoints or perhaps admits simply not understanding them when forced to admit practical results. But real results can be achieved from all of these viewpoints. And all of these results and possible different viewpoints results from the virtual nature of PMR reality.

I know that this is not the clear, specific and easily understood answer that you are seeking, but it is all I can see to give you. I see no specific way to explain applied kinesiology based upon the model of MBT other than this.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Weird, I was going over the possible explanations for this the other day.

I grew up experiencing this alot. Having it done on me and doing it to other people.

The body does react to substances. But I'm thinking this is more of a "power of suggestion" type thing. In order to do it, you usually test a substance that the individual is told is probably a "bad" think to her/himself. More of a placebo effect than anything. Though I have seen things that would say otherwise.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:41 pm 
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Steve: I am trying to understand the substance, energy, the consciousness connection behind AK or Applied Kinesiology

Tom: There is a consciousness connection and it is very straightforward. The same basic mechanics of consciousness that drives AK also drives the Ouija board, the readings of tea leaves or Tarot cards, or consulting the oracle of the I-Ching, swinging a pendulum, or from the shamanistic tradition, tossing a hand full of chicken bones on a flat surface. These and dozens of other such information "sources" that lie outside of PMR "objective" science can sometimes deliver valid specific information under certain conditions. Indeed you can make up your own tools and they will work as well as any of these if they meet all the criteria. All such techniques require a subjective interpretation of subtle variations within a primary communication media or "tool". The specific use of media or contrivances that produce subjective interpretation of subtle variations (which may contain random components) is mandated by the psi uncertainty principle. The active ingredient is, as always, conscious intent and one or more cooperative individuals. The information relayed through the tool is organic to NPMR, moved by intent, passed between source and receiver over the RWW, and delivered by subtly modifying the PMR VR through the Virtual Reality Rendering Engine (VRRE). The Ouija board, swinging pendulum, and AK, uses subtle muscle responses as the media/tool, the rest use random arrangements of things.

I am sure you have plenty of questions like why "sometimes deliver" and under what "specific conditions". Why do scientific double blind tests sometimes fail to corroborate what practitioners observe? Etc. All those questions have clear answers but this is enough to get you going and perhaps some, if not most, of these answers will become obvious given the above discussion. We can do more with this subject later after you have had time to absorb and think about this first dose. My time and typing skills are running out of steam this evening and this subject could go on for pages to get at all the details. Hope this helps.

Tom


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:30 pm 
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So, all of these things like AK, Chi or Qi, meridians, energy body are all metaphorical systems that evolved over time to help us interpret the data our IUOC are sharing, exchanging and experiencing?

In fact, couldn't you say that the entire NPMR is all metaphorical symbols and systems? (from PMR perspective)

If consciousness can lower its entropy and become more organized and efficient does that mean a metaphorical system can also?
Can one metaphorical system or tool be used to lower the entropy of another metaphorical system or tool?

For example:

Opening the energy pathways of the accupunture meridian system (metaphorical system) to become more efficient by using accupuncture needles? (metaphorical tool)

"Sometimes deliver" must have to do with our being open minded and in sync or co operative with the idea of the metaphor.

If both individuals (Patient and accupuncturist) are in sync with metaphor i would guess the probability of the metaphor being used effectively will be higher.

But if only one individual is in sync would that mean the probability odds go way down?

Like if the patient receiving the accupunture treatment was a skeptic (not in sync) or a dog (unable to understand the metaphor) Can one individuals intent override another's if that individuals quality of conscious is lower in entropy?

Is that why "double-blinds" don't work when testing NPMR metaphors or viewpoints?

Is the "criteria" you need to meet in order to access and effectively use the metaphorical system very specific for each different metaphor or more broad sweeping like "you just need to have a lower entropy and more focused intent"

Is that enough questions? Ha ha. Sorry.

Steve.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:01 am 
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Steve: So, all of these things like AK, Chi or Qi, meridians, energy body are all metaphorical systems that evolved over time to help us interpret the data our IUOC are sharing, exchanging and experiencing?

Tom: I do not have enough personal experience or knowledge of Chi or Qi, of acupuncture, to say "yes" unequivocally (best not to make pronouncements about thinks you do not know much about). The scientist in me must remain skeptical of everything, including myself - so my lack of specific firsthand knowledge of these things may be an issue. However, having given that caveat, (buyer beware) it is my present opinion that these systems (and let's include Reiki, chakras, and astrology, and many others in this list) are indeed "metaphorical systems that evolved over time to help us interpret [and apply] the data our IUOC are sharing, exchanging and experiencing". Such metaphors offer a useful or practical interpretation of information about the nature of reality in terms of PMR concepts and language. They provide a conceptual structure that (through focusing intent in a clear and precise way) allows practitioners (and their subjects or patients) to apply that information to physical systems within PMR. So, the effects of such tools within PMR are real enough, however, the process that appears to implement those effects represents a man-made tool that is designed to facilitates an understanding, manipulation, data transfer, or reorganization of the source data that defines both the physical and the larger reality.

Steve: In fact, couldn't you say that the entire NPMR is all metaphorical symbols and systems? (from PMR perspective)

Tom: Yes, I could say that.... and probably would. But I would modify your parenthetical to say: (from the perspective of someone embodied within PMR)

Steve: If consciousness can lower its entropy and become more organized and efficient does that mean a metaphorical system can also?

Tom: A metaphorical system is not self-modifying -- it does not lower its own entropy like consciousness does, but the metaphor can be refined and extended (evolved) by its practitioners to become more and more effective and useful to whatever extent that is possible. It also can devolve to become less useful -- particularly if it becomes encumbered with non-productive ritual, applied widely by those who are incompetent in its application, or fragmented by leaders with ego driven personal agendas.

Steve: Can one metaphorical system or tool be used to lower the entropy of another metaphorical system or tool?

Tom: Sure - to any number of levels. An example: One uses the metaphor of a beam of light to cure illness represented by the metaphor of a black spot within the metaphor of an energy body (typically the beam is used to evaporate the black spot that represents the illness in the energy body that represents the physical patient which represents the IUOC). Intent is the only prime mover of data and organization within consciousness, how that intent is generated is irrelevant.

Steve: For example: Opening the energy pathways of the acupuncture meridian system (metaphorical system) to become more efficient by using acupuncture needles? (metaphorical tool)

Tom: The needles serve a specific function within the metaphor and are thus necessary to complete the focusing of intent of both the practitioner and patient. PMR beings have cultural beliefs that make it nearly impossible for them to focus their intent clearly without doing something. They believe that only by doing something can physical change be accomplished. Thus needles, a Ouija board, a hand full of chicken bones, visualizing a light beam, or consulting the oracle of weak/strong muscle resistance (or a swinging pendulum) becomes a necessary part of the process.

Steve: "Sometimes deliver" must have to do with our being open minded and in sync or co operative with the idea of the metaphor.

Tom: Yes

Steve: If both individuals (Patient and acupuncturist) are in sync with metaphor i would guess the probability of the metaphor being used effectively will be higher.

Tom: That is true

Steve: But if only one individual is in sync would that mean the probability odds go way down?

Tom: Yes, on the average, effectiveness in that case is likely to be greatly diminished.

Steve: Like if the patient receiving the acupuncture treatment was a skeptic (not in sync) or a dog (unable to understand the metaphor)

Tom: If the patient's intent was to be very receptive and the patient had no fear, ego, expectations , or beliefs interfering with the process - one would get optimal results. If the skeptic were open-minded, there also would be no problem. Consider the dog as an open minded skeptic. If the skeptic is close minded and determined to prove that the process does not work, it probably will not work. If it does, that it worked will be denied.

Steve: Can one individual's intent override another's if that individual's quality of conscious is lower in entropy?

Tom: My above use of "probably" and "on the average" will be explained here. If the intent of the practitioner is clear and strong enough, it can indeed override other forces that are at play. The more power a practitioner has the more careful he/she must be not to overwhelm the free will or larger plan of another. Such power and such understanding evolve together. Those at beginning or intermediate levels generally can do little inadvertent harm.
Having lower or higher in entropy is not a necessary condition of one overriding another unless both are actively engaged in opposing each other.

Steve: Is that why "double-blinds" don't work when testing NPMR metaphors or viewpoints?

Tom: Yes. These metaphorical processes work well only among those who cooperate and facilitate the process of intent working effectively within consciousness.

Steve: Is the "criteria" you need to meet in order to access and effectively use the metaphorical system very specific for each different metaphor or more broad sweeping like "you just need to have a lower entropy and more focused intent"

Tom: Both. One must clearly understand and "Buy into" or internalize the metaphor on a deep (being) level or the metaphor will not have much power to focus intent. A naïve person (not thoroughly trained and not thoroughly experienced in applying the metaphoric process) just going through the motions without fully engaging their focused consciousness at the being level will not be effective. However, it is not required to "believe" in the metaphor. If one understands the nature of reality, one can use the metaphor effectively as a focusing tool without being trapped by a limiting belief. However most people practicing such metaphoric processes do not understand the nature of reality and do believe that the metaphor directly, rather than indirectly, represents reality.
Because of this attachment to belief, many metaphorical processes incorporate ritual (unnecessary process) that typically represents individual specific tools that have been attached to the general tool. A person with a broad understanding, low entropy, and finely focused intent can use common tools or generate their own bag of custom tools that fit their understanding and experience base perfectly. Or if understanding is great enough, skip the tools because there is no need for aids in focusing intent.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:51 am 
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Tom -

Is it practicably possible for any (most) of us here (apart perhaps from the most adept, like yourself) in PMR to interact with the larger reality in a totally non-metaphorical way? Would we be aware that we were doing this on a PMR-conscious level assuming we were able to do it, or is it something we do at our 'higher levels'? I suspect you may answer that the more we evolve (lower entropy), the less necessary metaphor becomes, but how 'far up' (metaphor again!) the reality scale (into NPMR) is metaphor still evident?

Arthur

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Arthur,

Metaphor is not something that we can leave behind as we gain understanding or advance our quality of being. Metaphor arises from the necessity of relating an experience in one virtual reality through the limitations of the rule set and perceptions of another virtual reality and the limitations of experience available to us within that virtual reality with which to interpret these other VR experiences. Metaphor is a word that we use to define the mapping of one reality's experience onto another reality's experience when the rule sets of the two VRs are different. So if we are mapping the experience of a 'school' situation and environment within NPMR onto our understanding and experience of a 'school' situation within PMR, we tend to describe a 'place' devoted to a school situation here in PMR which may be anything from a classroom with students in rows of desks to an open Grecian colonnade where students meet with a master to discuss the subject of choice. A metaphor for the reality. Our perception of another VR from our own 'native' VR is always going to be limited to a metaphor, a mapping based upon available experience, in this way. Knowing that what you perceive is limited in this way cannot provide more experience than you actually have available to eliminate the necessity for this mapping.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:25 pm 
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Thank you, Ted. I suppose in a way I knew that must be the answer, in a reality system where there are no absolutes, only relative perceptions. And I suppose also, that it must be impossible for us to conceive of what may be the metaphors used by residents of other reality frames to conceive of yet other reality frames. Intriguing!

Arthur

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:28 am 
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Tom's post is excellent, very good food for thought, besides of putting into words some concept I had been thinking about for some time, but had dismissed for being too out of touch with basic scientific assumptions.

Tom,

I wonder... to what extent could acts such as studying for an exam, working out to get in shape, dieting to get in shape, etc. be metaphorical tools to focus your intent and get the expected results? I had been having the feeling that doing exactly the same - workout+diet for instance - had dramatically different results depending on how much positive thinking and desire I put into it. I could never get a PMR-rule-set answer that explained why sometimes doing something that should always work the same worked so well, while working so bad in other occasions. I just thought "maybe there's some other biological variable I am not taking into account that could explain the differential in results (like sleep, stress, hormonal changes, etc.) and I am not aware of it", because I couldn't find any other plausible explanation. The empirical feeling I was getting sometimes was that the key was how much "faith" and "positive thinking" you put into the "movements" (diet+training) but I had to dismiss the idea for considering it too paranoid and couldn't talk anyone about it without getting an "are you nuts?" awkward look. I could understand that in study sessions faith and positive thinking fit well into our current scientific model, because they all were (both learning and faith+positive thinking) in one's mind and were therefore mental functions affecting other mental functions... but mental functions affecting physical outcomes such as "looks", when no other variables (diet+training) were changed, was just too damn nonsense. The implications would also be too out of touch with the PMR rule-set: if my hypothesis were to be correct that would imply that people could get in shape and change their looks (slimmer, stronger,...) using their mindset instead of the necessary movements(diet+training), which was obviously impossible. Therefore, I dismissed the whole idea completely as utter nonsense paranoia with a "I am going to end up locked up in a mental institution if I don't put my analytical skills to better use".

My question: was the hypothesis I thought about more than mere delusion and misinterpretation of data?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Quamta,

Consciousness is primary, actual, and fundamental while PMR (your body) is virtual -- a derivative of consciousness. This is the phrase to remember: The mind leads and the body follows. However, within PMR, body and mind are also part of an interactive system that must globally obey the defining ruleset -- at least to within some sufficient amount of uncertainty. individually, the ruleset can be subverted up to the point that a more global statement is being made.

Thus, if a strong, clear, well focused intent says: I want to quit smoking. Or, I want to be much thinner and lighter than I am now. then, because the mind leads and the body follows, the body that is led by that intent will most certainly quit smoking and lose weight -- but not magically. The psi uncertainty principle requires a process with enough uncertainty to globally discount psi as a necessary ingredient. Thus such intent may cause one or more things to happen: appetite is lost or curbed, metabolic rate is increased, one feels more inclined to take the stairs rather than the elevator. If normal nudging does not succeed with the first and the third, then schedule or sickness will force the skipping of meals, the elevator will not be working, the car will break down or friends will suggest walking together after lunch.

You or your wife or children will become allergic to smoke, other peoples smoke will begin to annoy you and smell bad, people with cigarettes begin to look childish and stupid, your best friend and your mother will both get terminal lung cancer, your workplace will ban smoking, you will suddenly realize that you are drug addict just like any other drug addict and not like the feel of that truth, the price of cigarettes will go up and you will lose your job. You begin to realize that people think less of you and avoid being around you because you smoke. You come to realize that he people you would most like to associate with are mostly non smokers and that people who smoke aren't as pleasant to be around and appear to have more issues and personal problems.

A weak, foggy or unfocused intent does the same thing but the results and effectiveness are also weak, foggy and unfocused. Results are poor

The bottom line: The virtual reality will conspire to follow a powerful intent within the bounds of psi uncertainty as long as all involved/affected sum up to a long term optimized path (gain) for the system with no significant Big Picture loss for any individual.

Tom C


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