Return Home
It is currently Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:33 am

All times are UTC-06:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 5 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:44 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:47 am
Posts: 1061
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida
Ted,

I know there has been some postings about lost and found items here and there on the forums, but I feel I still need some clarification of how this works exactly..

Let me start off by sharing with you my understandings about this which is (lower confidence and shaky at best ).., works by my current level of understanding. Than perhaps we can build this thread up to also answer other peoples question about how lost and returned items work in a VR..

I think I am mostly interested in situations when you lose something and you have little confidence in the location in which it was originally lost..

I think this concept is best explained by a situation that happen recently in which an item was lost and never found, which I found to be quite odd..

So in this instance, My brother And I will mow his yard as a 2-man team each using separate mowers. Now one thing that concerns me a bit with his mowing style, is he has a habit of pushing the mower too far under bushes, such that its pops the air filter off the top of the mower which is quite visible. So sure enough after mowing for a bit, he came around the corner and I noticed that the air filter and cover were missing. I assumed the reason for this ( as it has happened a few times in the past with us always recovering the air filter), was because the filter got snagged on some bushes and it was pulled off the mower. In this instance however since we were near to finishing his lawn (which is a large corner lot lawn ), there were many possibilities for which (what exact bush ), may have snagged the filter and pulled it off the mower. We never did recover it this time, despite the most thorough of searches in which i covered all the possibly locations (multiple times) where it may have been pulled off by some bush . I found it somewhat odd that with the larger size of the item we were not able to ever recover it.. Since our original search I have Re: searched again and again also. Just out of curiosity how an item this size could simply "vanish" ..

So based on this example let me share with you , some of my low confidence assumptions..

1) assume this is a personalized item and only an item interested to me. Here i do not care if I recover the item or not. So in that event would the most likely outcome be its not rendered back into this reality frame again ?

2) assume here I want the lost item back again..
Is the location on where it is RE; Found based on a random draw of the most likely probabilities where it should be found ?

3) is there a small % that despite my "wanting this item" back, that the system still decides not to render it back into this reality frame despite my desires for its return ?

Thanks for any corrections or anything you can add to this example, Ted..

Brian


Top
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:25 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 6138
Location: Ocala, FL
I've had quite a few things disappear. I've only recovered a few. I really don't know the whys. Tom has said that the data stream is not rendered to you exactly the same every time. So if you wake up and go into the kitchen it will be almost exactly the same but not exactly the same.

Sometimes it is just a reminder of how strange reality can be when you think it is physical.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:02 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Brian,

I think the general plan for the VR is that it function as an objective and deterministic VR per the rule set. Not necessarily the rule set as science presently thinks it works, but still some rule set that is consistently maintained. But it is not perfect in its functioning. Things can change and the change is unintended. Most of the time this gets shrugged off as bad memory rather than changed reality. Then you get things like Linda describes where it is likely a poke in the ribs to wake you up. But there will be uncertainty and you might find things missing like this later in very unlikely places.

I wonder if your missing lawn mower parts are stuck up between branches of the shrubs under which they got knocked off instead of falling back on the ground?

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:58 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:47 am
Posts: 1061
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida
Ted and Linda ,

Thanks you for your comments on lost items in PMR and how that works..
I think this is still consistent with the rest of the MBT model and how Ted has described the VRRE in the past as long as the following explanations can be accepted..

If it can be viewed that when someone loses a personalized item, that the system has to Re: render that item back into this reality frame, due to a conscious intent or query. Than I think at that point it still follows the usual rendering probability/ random draw model in terms of the location of where the lost item would be rendered again .

Of course this means , that every once in while a low % render draw would be selected. Which than on some occasions would account for either finding the lost items in a strange location or perhaps as Linda points out not being able to find your item at all.. But all this now seems more consistent to me with how the VRRE would work in these situations..

Brian.


Top
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:26 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:47 am
Posts: 1061
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida
I had forgotten to reply to Ted's question -
Quote:
I wonder if your missing lawn mower parts are stuck up between branches of the shrubs under which they got knocked off instead of falling back on the ground?

Ted
Yes, we had considered this possibility also. That the filter had been snagged by the branches of the nearby bushes and was still hung up in them rather than falling all the way to the ground, during our searches. I was thinking this only added more "uncertainty" to the issue.

But Ted, do you think my way of viewing this, that once you lose a personalized item, your desire or intent to want it back causes the system to have to Re: render it again . At that point were than back to the usual system rules about rendering, that a probability "draw" is than taken in terms of the location in our VR where it is rendered to ?

One more hypothetical on this ... Ted

Let suppose that after losing the mower filter, I no longer care about having the air filter returned again .. I have plenty of extra filters and covers back at the house so i am fine with it being gone. So a month later , were back mowing the lawn and i happen to spot it some place snagged in the bushes..Would this go against the theory that the TBC is a parsimonious one, because it just rendered something back into this reality frame than either myself or anyone else cared about having returned any longer ?

Brian


Top
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:35 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Brian,

I don't think that the system has to recreate something that you have lost because you want it badly. It didn't get lost in the first place because you did or did not value it. It was just chance and finding it is just chance and of course, the diligence you put in looking. That is, unless a lesson is being played our for your benefit.

The system taking the easy way, computational parsimony, refers to how an item is recreated when all records have been lost as to details. What is easier? To draw information out of the data base or to just take the most probable information? It is not affected by your desires or intent.

Think about archaeologists or fossil hunters. They are looking for something that has been buried for thousands to millions of years ago and all records within Consciousness long having been lost. I doubt very much if there is any going back to past actualized data bases to find out what dinosaurs died in this particular bog so their bones can be found now. They are likely selected based on probability. But I wonder if an archaeologist is looking for records of some lost civilization if it isn't necessary to actually go back into the data base to find out what articles are likely to be buried with someone from that past civilization. It isn't after all the same as bones from a particular dinosaur. While bones are bones, there might be great implications for religious or domestic use items about the civilization being studied.

Ultimately, we don't know how this is determined in any particular case. We just know that there is a principle that gets applied.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:19 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:05 am
Posts: 414
Ted, how can the lcs calculate the probability of a bone being there or not without considering the past actualized database? Are you saying that the bone is basically created on the fly with all appropriately aged carbon atoms etc, and there may not have been an actual dinosaur connected to that specific bone? I thought it worked more like the dino was in the bog, died, and all consciousness forgets about the bones. After that the bones arent rendered, but they exist in the database and are progressed through time via probability. So because it was drawn from probability that the bones be buried in that spot, which just so happens to be a good spot for preserving a fossil, the simulation progresses the bone through time based on that fact. When we dig in that spot now, the highest probability is that there is a dino bone there aged 70 million years or whatever. So thats what we get. Have I misunderstood here?

_________________
What was it like to wake up after having never gone to sleep?


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:14 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 6138
Location: Ocala, FL
Radagast - you point out very clearly the problems with trying to understand a probable reality when we think we live in a physical one.

The system takes a random draw for every event. The things that are in the highest part of the curve usually drop into the data stream. But sometimes things from the far end of the curve can also become reality. The continuity comes from the possibilities. The dinosaurs aren't a made up part of our history. They lived and had FWAU's attached to their data streams. So in places that they would seem most likely to have died will be the most bones found. Whether or not a paleontologist digs one up is a random draw.
Attachment:
Slide 1.jpg
Slide 1.jpg [ 105.64 KiB | Viewed 3916 times ]


Top
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:30 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
As a virtual reality, things do not end up in the past actualized data base except by passing through the consciousness of some creature with an IUOC to do its thinking and experience its existence. The dinosaur and its bones never existed except within its own consciousness and the consciousness of others with whom it interacted or at least was observed. There are no bones in the ground but only a simulation of bones in the ground when they are dug up. The data base does not really keep track of a given dinosaur once it ceases to be conscious. Where its bones come to be a million years later is entirely a matter of probability. Which way did flood waters flow. Where did things tend to get buried by deposited mud and clay? Then these probabilities as they have developed over the intervening time are consulted to determine if there will be bones where the paleontologist decides to dig their hole. What ever is probable to be there is then what is sent down the RWW in the data stream to represent the finding of just what is most probable. There is no ground until you dig a hole and disclose that there is something below the surface. There is no brain in your head until someone either bashes you with a rock to reveal it or a neurologist does something to show that it exists. It is all a simulation, surfaces only until circumstances reveal what must be expected to be below the surface. There is nothing 'our there'. It is all 'in there' in the data provided down the RWW to provide the experience of the simulation of PMR.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:56 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:05 am
Posts: 414
Of course. I guess i'm talking about the interim. How we get from dead dino to fossilized bone. I know the answer usually given is that there never really was a dino or a bone. True, but I am interested in the mechanics of the simulation itself. There seem to be two options for vr rendering here. On the fly without considering the historical database(the bone is not linked to a specific dino that was ever alive, the lcs just decides we need to discover a bone there for some reason), or on the fly having first taken into account all the things that have happened in the database since the dino died, resulting in a fossil being rendered when we dig because thats what was drawn from probability as being there. I guess what im asking is why would the lcs insert random dinosaur bones for us to find if it hadn't already taken into account all of the possible things that could have happened to it since the dino died? If all consciousness forgets that there ever were any dinosaurs, why give us their bones to dig up millions of years later? Wouldn't it be more parsimonious to just never render them again?

_________________
What was it like to wake up after having never gone to sleep?


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:36 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
But remember that PMR type VRs are intended to simulate an objective reality. An objective reality never forgets. But this simulation of an objective reality is neither perfect nor willing to go to fantastic lengths to create a simulation of an actually objective reality. At a point, it becomes no longer worth while in terms of calculation requirements with the available capabilities and facilities to go the last bit to a perfect objective reality. Ever heard the joke about 'good enough for government work'? And we do not have access to the detailed algorithms and logic of TBC either. We can only describe it to the limits to which we understand it. It's above our pay grade.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:18 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:05 am
Posts: 414
Quote:
But remember that PMR type VRs are intended to simulate an objective reality. An objective reality never forgets. But this simulation of an objective reality is neither perfect nor willing to go to fantastic lengths to create a simulation of an actually objective reality. At a point, it becomes no longer worth while in terms of calculation requirements with the available capabilities and facilities to go the last bit to a perfect objective reality. Ever heard the joke about 'good enough for government work'? And we do not have access to the detailed algorithms and logic of TBC either. We can only describe it to the limits to which we understand it. It's above our pay grade.

Ted
Ha. So we can assume things are rendered with the purpose of creating the illusion of objective reality. If dino bones are our only evidence that dinos exist, leaving them out doesn't break objectivity. However, if we can infer that some kind of life must have existed at the time given what we know(age of the planet, abundance of life, rate of evolution, etc.), the system might just throw in some bones to preserve that aspect of objective causality. Is that along the right track?

_________________
What was it like to wake up after having never gone to sleep?


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:58 pm 
Offline
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:10 am
Posts: 72
Going back to the original issue of loosing an item and then being unable to find it, what about 'manifestation' of items. There seems to be two ends to this spectrum, one where items disappear and the other where things appear.

I have this mate that has the ability to manifest things almost instantly. One time he was standing under a tree out hunting and he was trying to make out something in the distance. He wished he had a set of binoculars - and then bumped into something hanging from the tree. You guessed it, a set of binoculars.

I was with him on a hunting trip and I had an American canteen cup (this is in Australia) that I used to make us a cup of hot coffee. He said, "I'm going to have to get me one of those" - and 5 minutes later found his canteen cup as we were walking along out in the bush.

I can manifest things, but it takes intent and time for probabilities to come together, but this guy had something else going for him. Perhaps at some level he recognised that time was an illusion and he didn't need it to manifest items.


Top
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:38 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Quote:
Ha. So we can assume things are rendered with the purpose of creating the illusion of objective reality. If dino bones are our only evidence that dinos exist, leaving them out doesn't break objectivity. However, if we can infer that some kind of life must have existed at the time given what we know(age of the planet, abundance of life, rate of evolution, etc.), the system might just throw in some bones to preserve that aspect of objective causality. Is that along the right track?
I don't know if I would put it that way. It's more like that all along you have a complete ecology. You can't leave out predators when there is evidence that they have existed by the effects on their prey. Bite marks on bones as an example. Find the bite marks and you start looking for what caused those bite marks. If you have a precursor and what looks like several steps on in evolution, then you are likely to eventually find the 'missing link'. And thus you get the kind of pieced together situation that paleontologists are finding where they gradually fill in the pattern of development leading from apes to humans. But whether each set of fossils represents the previous existence of a specific historical individual, I think that we cannot assume as it might just be simpler to put in what should be there rather than go to the effort to look up precisely what once was there and reproduce it when you dig the next hole. Digging another hole is revealing contents of that hole which have not been represented in the VR since that over burden of soil began to collect. And perhaps some dead dinosaurs became rapidly covered in a flash flood and were never observed and eaten by their fellow whatevers that functioned as scavengers at that time. There is no consistent record from conscious observation to leave a continuing record of those fossils in that place. Perhaps it is easier to fill in with what probability says should be there. That's the way that a VR works in my understanding.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:46 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Terry,

As Tom says, anything is possible in a VR. There are past discussions on the board where people discuss manifesting a parking space in the parking lot whenever they need one. Others have described similar things. But generally, it is not possible to manifest things like that. People who have tried to win lotteries by Intent find themselves frustrated by the PUP and report being off by one number on each guessed number in the sequence.

We assume that people report the truth here as if anything can happen, how can you reject anything as just a tall tale out of the bush?

Ted


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 5 Next

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited