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 Post subject: Control vs Letting Go
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Tom speaks of the dichotomy between two competing theories of decreasing entropy (increasing order). These seem to be control vs letting go(love).

I am wondering if there are any real world examples of this that can be pointed to?

I understand the concept. The more you try to control and direct with force, the less control it turns out you have. Conversely, if you let go and accept what comes, you find that the outcome is much better.

I am looking for a metaphor for this that is not society. Something that can be pointed to that will make it click, and then the concept can be applied to society.

I'm thinking of like, grasping water tightly, you find you hold none vs cupping your hands. something like that. Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:43 pm 
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Control is not a word I have ever heard Tom use. Entropy is a term for order or disorder.

Someone who tries to control everything has a lot of fear. Letting life unfold, and doing the best you can with whatever you get, will not make the outcome itself better. But you will not have so many ups and downs. Life happens and you go on.

Water would be low entropy, mist would be high entropy.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:03 am 
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Studentarious,

I think that the metaphor that you are looking for is the rats and the anti-rats. This is Tom Campbell's metaphor for the two general approaches taken by avatars in VRs in general, who he divides into the rats traveling through the educational maze with openness to experience, those who follow the positive approach and path to living. Cooperating with and helping other rats in developing and who are generally on the path of development that can eventually lead to becoming love as Tom Campbell describes the end stage goal of their development. They follow the general procedure that Tom describes as interacting and paying attention to the feedback. The primary way to get through the maze and reduce entropy and raise QOC on the way as each pass is taken through the maze of incarnation.

The anti-rats are those who attempt to reduce their entropy by control of both themselves individually and also others they encounter on their path whether rat or anti-rat. This is described as the less open ended, less expansive and more limited and prone to failure way to incarnate. Tom also describes that as being the inherently limited way that usually leads to eventual failure and when the anti-rat devolves sufficiently they need special training and assistance and care in choosing their incarnations where they will have the most support to start to turn their paths around and start back upwards on the positive path. They as a group include the few IUOCs who are described by Tom as possibly having to eventually be terminated as incorrigible and replaced with a totally new IUOC to start the growth path again from the beginning if they are incapable of reversing their path onto the positive way.

This is a general metaphor and the groupings are not absolute, either/or, one or the other. There is a spectrum of attributes and this is studied and tested by sociologists as those who are not at all authoritarian to those who are extremely authoritarian. The results of testing shows a complete gradient or spectrum of this attribute from 'left' to 'right' on the political spectrum. We are presently on a rise to a peak of the anti-rats within the different world societies. That leads to the present state of anti-democratic, neo Fascist and neo Nazis and generally white supremacist leadership to be found so many places in the world. It also includes the war between the 1% and the 99% as it has also been described as the uber rich attempt to increase their wealth and control at the expense of the 99% of society.

I assure you that this is not just my interpretation but is in Tom's original books, but kept metaphorical and not carried into applied sociology.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:57 am 
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Quote:
Studentarious,

I think that the metaphor that you are looking for is the rats and the anti-rats. This is Tom Campbell's metaphor for the two general approaches taken by avatars in VRs in general, who he divides into the rats traveling through the educational maze with openness to experience, those who follow the positive approach and path to living. Cooperating with and helping other rats in developing and who are generally on the path of development that can eventually lead to becoming love as Tom Campbell describes the end stage goal of their development. They follow the general procedure that Tom describes as interacting and paying attention to the feedback. The primary way to get through the maze and reduce entropy and raise QOC on the way as each pass is taken through the maze of incarnation.

The anti-rats are those who attempt to reduce their entropy by control of both themselves individually and also others they encounter on their path whether rat or anti-rat. This is described as the less open ended, less expansive and more limited and prone to failure way to incarnate. Tom also describes that as being the inherently limited way that usually leads to eventual failure and when the anti-rat devolves sufficiently they need special training and assistance and care in choosing their incarnations where they will have the most support to start to turn their paths around and start back upwards on the positive path. They as a group include the few IUOCs who are described by Tom as possibly having to eventually be terminated as incorrigible and replaced with a totally new IUOC to start the growth path again from the beginning if they are incapable of reversing their path onto the positive way.

This is a general metaphor and the groupings are not absolute, either/or, one or the other. There is a spectrum of attributes and this is studied and tested by sociologists as those who are not at all authoritarian to those who are extremely authoritarian. The results of testing shows a complete gradient or spectrum of this attribute from 'left' to 'right' on the political spectrum. We are presently on a rise to a peak of the anti-rats within the different world societies. That leads to the present state of anti-democratic, neo Fascist and neo Nazis and generally white supremacist leadership to be found so many places in the world. It also includes the war between the 1% and the 99% as it has also been described as the uber rich attempt to increase their wealth and control at the expense of the 99% of society.

I assure you that this is not just my interpretation but is in Tom's original books, but kept metaphorical and not carried into applied sociology.

Ted
Thank you Ted,

I always considered the anti-rats as knowingly seeking to increase entropy, whereas control (authoritarianism) seems to be a good intentioned but ultimately faulty strategy at decreasing entropy. In Tom's recent video about the origins of consciousness, he explains his theory that the Larger Consciousness System itself was quite authoritarianism and controlling for a long time before eventually learning the only valid solution is love.

I am looking for a good metaphor that will more clearly illustrate this point to people who are well intentioned but believe that authoritarianism is the best way to create order and lower entropy. Simply telling them that they will eventually learn that letting go of control and becoming love is the only valid solution seems ineffective. I wish I could point to something as an example and say, "See, here is an example of letting go producing a better result then tightening the reigns of control. Apply this to society."

Otherwise it seems they have an easy rebuttal: "If you let go of control, there will be chaos! Anarchy! Every man for himself! People cannot be left to their own devices, they will destroy themselves! etc etc"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:21 am 
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Ask Tom in the appropriate forum:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9137&p=102853&hili ... at#p102853


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:59 am 
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Here is the link to the locations of where rats and anti-rats are mentioned in Tom Campbell's trilogy which I just looked up and referred someone else to on the board. See if this gives you any ideas that you can use. But frankly, you are not going to find anything to turn around an authoritarian by just telling them something. The core authoritarian followers of Trump have all of Trump's betrayals right there in the news and in Trump's statements and still do not see it, refuse to see it. None so blind as those who will not see.
https://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtB ... se&f=false

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:24 am 
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Quote:
Tom speaks of the dichotomy between two competing theories of decreasing entropy (increasing order). These seem to be control vs letting go(love).

I am wondering if there are any real world examples of this that can be pointed to?

I understand the concept. The more you try to control and direct with force, the less control it turns out you have. Conversely, if you let go and accept what comes, you find that the outcome is much better.

I am looking for a metaphor for this that is not society. Something that can be pointed to that will make it click, and then the concept can be applied to society.

I'm thinking of like, grasping water tightly, you find you hold none vs cupping your hands. something like that. Any ideas?
An excellent concept for this is enantiodromia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiodromia


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:14 am 
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Like most things 'Jungian' in origin, he makes them so complicated with his elaborations into conscious and unconscious and so forth that they become very hard to apply.

Perhaps consider the plants which spread world wide not by controlling where their seeds are planted but rather broadcast them on the wind, dependent on chance versus the animal kingdom which must control their location and maintain a 'family' relationship to care for their offspring. Or alternatively consider the herbivores versus the carnivores that exist in vast numbers within their herds, maturing within a year, while the carnivores which exist in limited numbers must care for their young for several years to maturity and are potentially capable of destroying their means to live if they become too numerous.

But actually no metaphors are so apt as the things in themselves as IUOCs whose avatars form societies and which you do not wish to consider. Those IUOCs have the personality types developed with the rise of city states and more complex societies which require cooperation as the figurative 'rats', ultimately love, versus authoritarianism, the 'anti-rats', which again seems to be originated in our IUOCs from the earlier state of tribalism going back to Paleolithic times or perhaps even earlier. The animal kingdom does not possess IUOCs with this stage of development as 'personalities' of this level of complexity and there have been arguments as to whether the plant kingdom even possesses IUOCs. So really you cannot find good analogies or metaphors outside of human society. Other aspects of PMR do not possess the complexity of human society and human level consciousness, not having IUOCs of that level of development to base behavior on.

Ted


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