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 Post subject: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Hello everyone :)

I have a question!

Mr. Big Cheese as he is apparently called :) is the responsible entity for this Virtual Realitiy right?

I would like to know if Mr. Big Cheese could be the Abrahamic God shown throughout history? What it he that guided Moses and Jesus and etc.?

Could the possible "flaws" (contradicting) message from between the Old testemant and the New testament be because of a more limited "God" than the "God" who is the collective consciousnes of ALL?

If one goes through the Gnostic literature and mysticism one will find a "God" called Demiurge, he is alleged creator of this physical Universe.

According to some Gnostic beliefs "Yahweh" who is one of the many names of the Abrahamic God is really another God that then God who orchestrate most of the New Testament.

What is up with all these names from the Abrahamic God. Jehovah, Elohim, Adonai, El and plenty of others. It appears that these names accout for different concepts of the name of God, they each have a different meaning, but could some of these names be from different high quality entities?

When a Christian, Jew or Muslim or others for that matter address "God", don't they in reality address the "local God"?, what if I prayed to God, would the message automatic go to the "local God" or the "true" If no special intent was made for the receiver who would recieve it? My guess is that all humans inquiries are much more relevant to the "local God" than the collective consciousness, it is his area of responsibility isn't it.

Tom wrote in one thread that the "true" God is more focused on the well-being of all the virtual realities than one, understandable of course, though could one still communicate with "him"?

Another thing, are not the most of our pleas and prayers intercepted by our guides? Even if one would address some "God"? Is there even a situation where the Mr. Big Cheese guy will interfere with an indivual personal? I guess the majority of "cases" are handled by guides, but all of them?

Couldn't we call Mr. Big Cheese a strategist and our guides the tacticalist (I know no such word exist)?


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:53 pm 
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SS,

The word that you wanted is tactician. But don't rush to assume that it is appropriate.

The Big Cheese is Tom's joking reference to the head of the bureaucracy that manages PMR and the local system. That is not his name nor his title, just Tom's little joke and to fit with other rat images he uses. The present Big Cheese is relatively new to the job in terms of years per Tom. He is in no way god or God out of history or any religion or by any name. He deals with seeing that the rule set and the integrity of the system is maintained. But not as a God, the God or any kind of god.

All of your questions are based upon PMR history and religion and have nothing to do with NPMR nor with My Big TOE. Are you sure that Tom ever made any kind of statement claiming to relate to the "true" God? I think that you are mistaken, but Tom will reply if I am in error. The One, The One Consciousness, AUM (an acronym) are not God nor any kind of god. They are terms that we use as metaphors in English for aspects of Consciousness Space, how it is organized, functions and is managed in the model presented in MBT. We are talking 'model' of reality, not the reality itself. The map is not the territory.

The Big Cheese might, in extraordinary circumstances, intervene in a situation relating to an individual, but this would be very rare. Pleas and prayers are not the optimum basis of understanding to communicate with our guides nor with The Big Cheese.

The Big Cheese, so called, is by nature of his position a strategist, but not exclusively so, and our guides, by virtue of their function, are more tacticians, but also involved in strategy, but on a much smaller scale dealing with only a few individuals. Our guides are not under any kind of direct supervision by The Big Cheese nor implementing strategy derived from on high. The true relationship is much like an earthly bureaucracy.

It is difficult to answer questions that are formulated on a basis not supported by reality. You will have better questions and we can give better answers when you are more familiar with MBT and the information available in these forums.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Quote:

The word that you wanted is tactician. But don't rush to assume that it is appropriate.
Ah yes, that was the word I was looking for.
Quote:

The Big Cheese is Tom's joking reference to the head of the bureaucracy that manages PMR and the local system. That is not his name nor his title, just Tom's little joke and to fit with other rat images he uses. The present Big Cheese is relatively new to the job in terms of years per Tom. He is in no way god or God out of history or any religion or by any name. He deals with seeing that the rule set and the integrity of the system is maintained. But not as a God, the God or any kind of god.
I am aware of that joke, I like it :)
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All of your questions are based upon PMR history and religion and have nothing to do with NPMR nor with My Big TOE. Are you sure that Tom ever made any kind of statement claiming to relate to the "true" God? I think that you are mistaken, but Tom will reply if I am in error. The One, The One Consciousness, AUM (an acronym) are not God nor any kind of god. They are terms that we use as metaphors in English for aspects of Consciousness Space, how it is organized, functions and is managed in the model presented in MBT. We are talking 'model' of reality, not the reality itself. The map is not the territory.
Yes, but PMR history and religion is interlinked with the NPMR, the NPMR is primarily the "source" for religion and etc.

Please know that when I refer to God I know that it is not what it appears to be. That is why I used the "" around the word.

I can try to find the passage Tom wrote and quote it.
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The Big Cheese might, in extraordinary circumstances, intervene in a situation relating to an individual, but this would be very rare. Pleas and prayers are not the optimum basis of understanding to communicate with our guides nor with The Big Cheese.
It might not be the optimum basis, but this is what most people use and do, that is why I thought the question was very relevant.
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The Big Cheese, so called, is by nature of his position a strategist, but not exclusively so, and our guides, by virtue of their function, are more tacticians, but also involved in strategy, but on a much smaller scale dealing with only a few individuals. Our guides are not under any kind of direct supervision by The Big Cheese nor implementing strategy derived from on high. The true relationship is much like an earthly bureaucracy.
That is what I thought too, that guides are mostly independent. That makes them learn from their mistakes too, doesn't it.
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It is difficult to answer questions that are formulated on a basis not supported by reality. You will have better questions and we can give better answers when you are more familiar with MBT and the information available in these forums.

Ted
I see that all these questions are supported by reality, PMR is reality too.

I want to know how the Abrahamic God fits into this, the entity referred to by many people can't be entirely fiction, the interpretation of the entity can be in question, but HOW this so called "Judeo-Christian" God fits into reality is what I want to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:48 pm 
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I think the Judo-Christian God fits into this PMR as the story was created because humans require answers to their world to make it doable psychologically. The Judo-Christian God is made up, the virgin birth story wasn't even made up until Constantinople needed it in the 16th century. The groups of people with the same belief system (details) because they study the same book and social script, in my opinion. At this point in time God is for those that require a childlike relief from being responsible for their actions, they believe they can do bad thing then say the right words and give money and all is well. That is a fantasy for those who cannot handle reality and responsibility for their actions, again, in my opinion. I'm sure it is nice at their end as they experience their personal God until they are able to experience reality as it stands with consciousness foundational, and least I believe I am sure of that. There is always room for new information.
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:17 pm 
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SS,

Sorry about that Chief, but so many here make statements and ask questions based upon something that they think they are saying. When the word's don't mean quite what they think and thus the answers are not what they expect, they always say, 'I knew that and what I meant was really something else' followed by a rephrasing or restatement. I can only deal with questions the way they are asked and as I thus understand them. Tom may be a better mind reader than I, but there is a real problem when what we say is not what we think we mean. PMR is a reality, but a virtual one, and one where the rule set means that information does not transfer directly from NPMR or the rest of Consciousness Space but must be interpreted and stated in words as metaphors for reality as expressed elsewhere.

The concept of gods, God and all the many names for these developed in PMR over a long time starting with primitive concepts and growing from there. They did not necessarily come from NPMR. There has always been an ability for PMR participants to contact Consciousness Space and the concept that everything begins with Mind dates back to before recorded history. So in a sense you can say they came from NPMR, but this is more by inspiration than a direct sourcing. Any contact with Consciousness Space always has had to be interpreted. Contact with Consciousness Space and things that don't match with PMR as a physical reality may be an inspiration for spirituality and religion, but not a direct source as you seem to be asking.

The God of Abraham developed as part of the conception of God and for reasons centered within PMR. This conception does not fit into the model of reality of MBT. Not as The Big Cheese nor as The One nor as AUM, etc. The Mosaic Code did not come from NPMR or any other aspect of Consciousness Space. Pick a characteristic attributed to the God of Abraham and you will not find it there. No Creator, no jealous God, no eye for an eye, no Heaven, no Hell, no retribution, no original sin, no Karma, no dogma, no karma running over your dogma, no chosen people, no destruction rained from above because of the sins of the people. Where do you want to stop this list? You put the quotation marks around "true", not around God and the phrase, the one true God, has a long history.

I have no other answer to give you. Shall we wait and see what Tom has to say further on the subject? Can you find the reference that you refer to and attribute to Tom?

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:52 pm 
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The idea of God can have many different meanings to many different people. It all depends on the experience, understanding and interpretation of such. Even before I read MBT I considered "God" to be what Tom describes as AUM, One Consciousness, etc. Certainly there is a lot of dogma in the various religions, however truth is also contained within these as well.

I've been reading an out of print book written by a clergyman in the early 1940's that a friend loaned to me and I am amazed at the correlations this pastor makes with what Tom says in MBT.

Kathy


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:56 pm 
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When I was a child, around 6 or so, I used to think that God was electricity; the kind associated with light switches. I've always kept the light association studying people who lived on sunlight, etc, and before MBT thought that everything was electricity, and then just that everything was matter. Since I am so enthralled with this PMR and also with wanting to know foundation or first instance of everything here I have spent some time gathering information. I've searched for how the God concept arose and am convinced it is not foundational, it is a human concept developed by males to control and allow psychological handling of "life" by those who believe. As Ted, I believe, has mentioned, Shamanism probably was first with animal worship, there have been times of female style religious earthmother society, but male dominated created, I mean creation religion is man made dogma.

Having said that I also have been keeping it in the front of my mind that it doesn't matter the name one gives to the All, if our intent is most the important aspect of a belief system, then the rest is just details.
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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:04 am 
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Kathy,

Of course one can re define the meaning of God, all the way up to defining God as meaning the same thing as The One, The One Consciousness or AUM. We can re define the meaning of all words, that being the major problem. We can discuss anything we wish exhaustively and never agree because we all have different personal meanings for the words used in the discussion. But if we refer to the God of Abraham, we get very specific as to our meaning of a Hebrew based God of Biblical times with well defined characteristics and we should be able to agree that that concept of a god or God is not found in MBT. I too have used the word God and the development of my thinking over the years was largely based upon re defining my meaning of the word God until I reached something very close to Mind within Consciousness Space. But I also realized and stated that this was not the concept of God held by religion and by nearly all people who were believers in religion.

To insist on warping our terminology to the point that we use the word God in this way is either fooling ourselves for a comfort factor or trying to fool others into thinking that what we are saying can be re interpreted at will in order to attract 'believers' who would otherwise be scared away. We need to understand that we are dealing with two basic interpretations of reality: a physical reality created by a God who stands outside of and continues to control it's creation or Consciousness Space within which everything exists as virtual realities and IUOCs and The One Consciousness, all as one integral Union. I do not know which is the older concept, but certainly existence based upon Mind or Consciousness is a very ancient concept of the origin of reality. And based upon this concept, we can develop MBT and explain quantum mechanics and relativity theory and much more that we cannot explain based upon the other branch of the dichotomy.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:09 am 
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SS,

Sorry about that Chief, but so many here make statements and ask questions based upon something that they think they are saying. When the word's don't mean quite what they think and thus the answers are not what they expect, they always say, 'I knew that and what I meant was really something else' followed by a rephrasing or restatement. I can only deal with questions the way they are asked and as I thus understand them. Tom may be a better mind reader than I, but there is a real problem when what we say is not what we think we mean. PMR is a reality, but a virtual one, and one where the rule set means that information does not transfer directly from NPMR or the rest of Consciousness Space but must be interpreted and stated in words as metaphors for reality as expressed elsewhere.
No reason to say sorry, it's fine :)
Quote:

The concept of gods, God and all the many names for these developed in PMR over a long time starting with primitive concepts and growing from there. They did not necessarily come from NPMR. There has always been an ability for PMR participants to contact Consciousness Space and the concept that everything begins with Mind dates back to before recorded history. So in a sense you can say they came from NPMR, but this is more by inspiration than a direct sourcing. Any contact with Consciousness Space always has had to be interpreted. Contact with Consciousness Space and things that don't match with PMR as a physical reality may be an inspiration for spirituality and religion, but not a direct source as you seem to be asking.
Yes I agree, I also think that the concept of God is very undefinable, makes discussing such thing very hard, the word "God" can mean hundreds of different things.
Quote:
The God of Abraham developed as part of the conception of God and for reasons centered within PMR. This conception does not fit into the model of reality of MBT. Not as The Big Cheese nor as The One nor as AUM, etc. The Mosaic Code did not come from NPMR or any other aspect of Consciousness Space. Pick a characteristic attributed to the God of Abraham and you will not find it there. No Creator, no jealous God, no eye for an eye, no Heaven, no Hell, no retribution, no original sin, no Karma, no dogma, no karma running over your dogma, no chosen people, no destruction rained from above because of the sins of the people. Where do you want to stop this list? You put the quotation marks around "true", not around God and the phrase, the one true God, has a long history.
Okay, I know that IF such a God existed those attributes would be made by us, the humans, thus I am not asking whether a God exist with those attributes but an entity which those attributes could ge given, by US the humans. The interpretation of such an entity by a human mind would of course be questionable. I am asking if a REAL entity could be the INSPIRATION of this so called Abrahamic God, and then this entity could be misunderstood or the message manipulated and etc.

I am looking for a possible explanation that could take everything into account, I am quite aware of the origin of how any god could appear, because of the power, worship, fear, hope, manipulation, interpretation of NPMR phenomena, limitation of the human mind, psycology, herd mentality, sociology and the list goes on. I am trying to explore all the possibilites.
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I have no other answer to give you. Shall we wait and see what Tom has to say further on the subject? Can you find the reference that you refer to and attribute to Tom?
Ted
Just to clear it up, Tom didn't mention anything about God, but something about the function of AUM comparable to Big Cheese I think, I read it three days ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:51 am 
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SS,

All things like you suggest are possible, and probable as well if you come down to it. If you read the books by Robert Monroe, you will perhaps remember that he mentioned encountering a being that claimed god like powers and who attacked him. He also described a being who appeared regularly and walked on the backs of those in that 'belief system'. Who knows who might have claimed what in an encounter back in biblical times with a PMR experiencer undergoing a 'trial in the wilderness'. The biblical prophets spoke with God. They saw angels. They received commands to sacrifice their first born son and then encountered a reprieve with a sacrificial animal provided instead. They followed pillars of fire at night and columns of smoke by day. Most of the Christian church of today would say that prophecy does not exist any more. But many still do communicate with Consciousness Space and receive information, participate in OOBEs, experience NDEs, ADCs, etc. Not to mention New Age channelers and hypnotic regression analysts.

Tom as you are aware has explored extensively and developed a scientific theory, based upon those explorations, that explains quantum mechanics and special and general relativity. But I cannot and I doubt if Tom wants to try to chase down the origin of any such encounter and beginning of the development of the concepts of gods and God thousands of years ago. There would have been many over much time. And not all encounters are benign. There are bad actors out there with bad intents. There are rules and it is the task of The Big Cheese to see that they are obeyed. However the existence of someone in charge of seeing that rules are obeyed tells you that there must be significant instances when they are not or there would be no need for someone to enforce the rules. If a lock were not needed on the barn door to keep the livestock in, then there would not be one there.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:35 am 
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Ted, I wasn't disagreeing with anything you had said.

Kathy


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:05 pm 
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First time I read Bible when I was 34. Religion was semi prohibited in USSR, and Bible was not ready available to the majority of people. My understanding of God was based on my grandma's stories, mostly about Jesus. May be, when I thought of three of them (God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit) they were some kind of family, not very happy one, since Son had to suffer so much. Who was Holy Spirit, did he/it have a body? Never thought of that. Grandma had four years of grade school, but was a strong person and had mind of her own. I remember her as a wise woman, and as I think, her beliefs were a mixture of church and folk views. So when I was a girl I thought of God as being fare and good to people, may be he looked like Santa Claus. Later a meaning of word "God" was combining God + Universe, they were interchangeable and One, and it was no image attached to it. Seven days of creation and many other things were metaphors to me. Cruelty, anger, revenge and severity of God of Old Testament were shocking, and as a result it was only one question - why so many people love this fickle and erratic God? I've never really got to reading all parts of New Testament. I thought of Christ as a person-teacher who was misunderstood and his teachings have been misinterpreted to a degree, that one has to become a member of an esoteric group to figure out the truth behind all those words, if you can trust these interpreters at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:01 pm 
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SS,

Ted and Bette and the others have said it very well but let me summarize it in a way that you might find helpful.

God (in the normal sense of how that word is defined by the average person) is a creation of man. The concept of god most likely developed in pre historic times as an interpretation (in terms of PMR-centric metaphor and symbol) of individual personal experience of some aspects of the larger consciousness system. The big cheese is just a metaphor for that aspect or part of the consciousness system that regulates and manages what I refer to as N-Division (another metaphor) which contains many independent virtual realities - our virtual universe being one among many.

The consciousness system is intelligent - after all, it's conscious -- so are some of its parts such you and the Big Cheese. It is an evolving system with many internal functions and an overall purpose. With just a little curiosity pushing experimentation, any human being not imprisoned by fear and belief can easily notice (and no doubt did from the very beginning and still do by the millions) that they are part of a larger system, that consciousness (out there) is fundamental (the superset) while the physical (here) is a subset. Having had that experience, individuals must interpret it in terms of what they can imagine and convey to others. Their interpretation must be in terms of Physical experiences and concepts because that is all they know and understand.

What they experienced was limited but real and fundamental -- how they interpret it is a product of their own imagination and need for pat answers. Yes, many religions have threads of truth in them because they are manmade reflections of some part of the larger truth. They also have threads of nonsense, manipulative processes to maintain membership, wealth and power accumulation, and PMR power politics in them as well.

There is no direct correlation between the gods of man and the big cheese or AUM -- only a very indirect one driven by erroneous interpretation and lack of understanding. I chose the title "Big Cheese" and a tone of irreverence purposely to discourage readers from deifying natural functions of the larger consciousness system - a thing humans are keen to do out of ignorance and fear and because they are herd animals (live according to common social rituals under the guidance of a strong leader). Because the levels of fear and ignorance are so high (PMR is an elementary school) the humans herd need gods much like they need air and water. Deifying the Big Cheese is a little like deifying the computer chip that controls fuel and spark in your car's engine. Fortunately, car parts do not share that human compulsion.

For some more detail on the nature of interpretation and virtual realities read:
An Orientation to Nonphysical Experience
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2915&start=0

An Orientation To Virtual Realities
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3043&start=0


Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:11 pm 
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Okay, thank you for all your answers and feedback :)

I will ponder a little and try to find some more interesting questions.

By the way, is there any notable difference between the trilogy as 3 books or 3 books in one bookbinding, any contextual difference?


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 Post subject: Re: Mr. Big Cheese..?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:38 pm 
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SS,

None. There is some small difference between first and second printing, but not between bindings.

Tom C


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