Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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Jdjr
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

Post by Jdjr »

jbaxter wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 am Jurgen's conviction tht the 'avatar' continues as a free will entity following physical death:
I have watched the video and am going to meditate on a response. My immediate response however to the above statement: According to MBT, the avatar is the human body. The VR Avatar decays. The FWAU (free will awareness unit) survives death for some undefined period of time.

Thanks for posting, I am looking forward to further discussion.
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

Post by jbaxter »

Jdjr wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:29 am
jbaxter wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 am Jurgen's conviction tht the 'avatar' continues as a free will entity following physical death:
I have watched the video and am going to meditate on a response. My immediate response however to the above statement: According to MBT, the avatar is the human body. The VR Avatar decays. The FWAU (free will awareness unit) survives death for some undefined period of time.

Thanks for posting, I am looking forward to further discussion.
All the videos in that series are well worth watching, jd. :)

Also, the point I was getting at earlier is that, according to Jurgen, 'uncle Fred' does continue to exist as an agency if free will - if you get my drift - in just the same way that he did in physical life. Jurgen illustrates this in the descriptions he gives of his ongoing conversations with his deceased mother.
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

Post by VirtualBrain »

Jdjr wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:29 am
jbaxter wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 am Jurgen's conviction tht the 'avatar' continues as a free will entity following physical death:
I have watched the video and am going to meditate on a response. My immediate response however to the above statement: According to MBT, the avatar is the human body. The VR Avatar decays. The FWAU (free will awareness unit) survives death for some undefined period of time.

Thanks for posting, I am looking forward to further discussion.
Jurgen uses different language. He refers to the FWAU as the astral body. The FWAU could be described as an avatar, non physical from the point of view of PMR.

Further he talks about transcending the astral realms(second death) which could be taken to mean merging with the IUOC/oversoul. He calls it his true self and from there one can have access to all lifetime experiences. He spent some time being a glacier apparently.

Having done all these things it is interesting that he’s here in PMR making videos as well. It suggests that one can experience merging with the IUOC but still exist as a human avatar in PMR.
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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VirtualBrain wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:15 am
Jdjr wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:29 am
jbaxter wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 am Jurgen's conviction tht the 'avatar' continues as a free will entity following physical death:
I have watched the video and am going to meditate on a response. My immediate response however to the above statement: According to MBT, the avatar is the human body. The VR Avatar decays. The FWAU (free will awareness unit) survives death for some undefined period of time.

Thanks for posting, I am looking forward to further discussion.
Jurgen uses different language. He refers to the FWAU as the astral body. The FWAU could be described as an avatar, non physical from the point of view of PMR.

Further he talks about transcending the astral realms(second death) which could be taken to mean merging with the IUOC/oversoul. He calls it his true self and from there one can have access to all lifetime experiences. He spent some time being a glacier apparently.

Having done all these things it is interesting that he’s here in PMR making videos as well. It suggests that one can experience merging with the IUOC but still exist as a human avatar in PMR.
Yes, it does. :)
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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Any number of metaphors can be used to describe the death transition and conscious units: The FWAU is also defined by Campbell as the soul. This definition deviates from Cayce to a degree. Cayce's 'personality' is Campbell's FWAU. Cayce's 'soul' is Campbell's IUOC(oversoul)

Cayce on the Soul's liberation from incarnation: When released from reincarnation the atheist and religious are correct. The atheist believes personality does not survive after death. The religious believe the soul is judged after death by the creator. Substituting the personality for soul [IUOC(oversoul] both are expressing the truth.

Campbell: The experience packet and free will of a life experience return to the IUOC/(oversoul).


During the video Jurgen speaks to his Brighton Out of body experience (sense data stream). He then speaks to "being led by unknown forces". Has he defined the unknown forces? Please provide a cite if available.
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

Post by jbaxter »

Jdjr wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:08 am Any number of metaphors can be used to describe the death transition and conscious units: The FWAU is also defined by Campbell as the soul. This definition deviates from Cayce to a degree. Cayce's 'personality' is Campbell's FWAU. Cayce's 'soul' is Campbell's IUOC(oversoul)

Cayce on the Soul's liberation from incarnation: When released from reincarnation the atheist and religious are correct. The atheist believes personality does not survive after death. The religious believe the soul is judged after death by the creator. Substituting the personality for soul [IUOC(oversoul] both are expressing the truth.

Campbell: The experience packet and free will of a life experience return to the IUOC/(oversoul).


During the video Jurgen speaks to his Brighton Out of body experience (sense data stream). He then speaks to "being led by unknown forces". Has he defined the unknown forces? Please provide a cite if available.
You could try asking him in the comments section of the relevant video. Also, he's on FaceBook. You could send him a friend request, Jd. He's very approachable. :)
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

Post by VirtualBrain »

Later in other videos in the afterlife series he talks about being trained by a guide who he describes as a Chinese master. Not sure if that’s the same as the unknown force or not but it could be I suppose, could have been his IUOC as well.

There are 17 videos in that series.
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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Thanks. I might have other questions so I will venture down this rabbit hole a little more. In terms of the sense data stream experiences (out of body experiences) he describes, I know them well. I have spoken to the psychological definition of it as a false awakening in other threads. I have experienced them often. He is, a far as I can recall, the first person I have heard speak to it with specificity.

Jurgen's "afterlife" is also addressed in Monroe's work. When his wife passed away, Monroe enlisted his explorers to accompany her to the rehabilitation center to await for his arrival. Campbell does not get into the afterlife to any degree no doubt for various reasons some of which have been discussed.

The models I have studied vary in terms of metaphor use and meaning or absolute truth. The bottom line, subject to further review, is that the conscious personality FWAU/asral body (pick a metaphor) goes through a transition after death that can include an afterlife or a merger with the All that is/IUOC/Soul or both. Some conscious personalities stick around to become Masters.
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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Jdjr wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:54 am Thanks. I might have other questions so I will venture down this rabbit hole a little more. In terms of the sense data stream experiences (out of body experiences) he describes, I know them well. I have spoken to the psychological definition of it as a false awakening in other threads. I have experienced them often. He is, a far as I can recall, the first person I have heard speak to it with specificity.

Jurgen's "afterlife" is also addressed in Monroe's work. When his wife passed away, Monroe enlisted his explorers to accompany her to the rehabilitation center to await for his arrival. Campbell does not get into the afterlife to any degree no doubt for various reasons some of which have been discussed.

The models I have studied vary in terms of metaphor use and meaning or absolute truth. The bottom line, subject to further review, is that the conscious personality FWAU/asral body (pick a metaphor) goes through a transition after death that can include an afterlife or a merger with the All that is/IUOC/Soul or both. Some conscious personalities stick around to become Masters.
We must be sisters under the skin, Jd!

I would like to say here how delighted I am to be participating in such a pleasant exchange of ideas. This is what I'd hoped to find in Tom's forum the first time I visited. It's no disloyalty to Tom to consider variations on his theme (model). All roads lead to Rome . . . . . . and it's so fascinating to explore them with intelligent minds along the journey. :)
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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jbaxter wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:22 am
Jdjr wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:54 am Thanks. I might have other questions so I will venture down this rabbit hole a little more. In terms of the sense data stream experiences (out of body experiences) he describes, I know them well. I have spoken to the psychological definition of it as a false awakening in other threads. I have experienced them often. He is, a far as I can recall, the first person I have heard speak to it with specificity.

Jurgen's "afterlife" is also addressed in Monroe's work. When his wife passed away, Monroe enlisted his explorers to accompany her to the rehabilitation center to await for his arrival. Campbell does not get into the afterlife to any degree no doubt for various reasons some of which have been discussed.

The models I have studied vary in terms of metaphor use and meaning or absolute truth. The bottom line, subject to further review, is that the conscious personality FWAU/asral body (pick a metaphor) goes through a transition after death that can include an afterlife or a merger with the All that is/IUOC/Soul or both. Some conscious personalities stick around to become Masters.
We must be sisters under the skin, Jd!

I would like to say here how delighted I am to be participating in such a pleasant exchange of ideas. This is what I'd hoped to find in Tom's forum the first time I visited. It's no disloyalty to Tom to consider variations on his theme (model). All roads lead to Rome . . . . . . and it's so fascinating to explore them with intelligent minds along the journey. :)
Tom has always said that we should create our own models. There is no primary model I’ve ever found. It’s totally subjective, even when you believe that it’s totally objective.

The love that allows for detachment brings us back together, when we’re ready. :)
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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"Tom has always said that we should create our own models. There is no primary model I’ve ever found. It’s totally subjective, even when you believe that it’s totally objective."

Exactly! And yet, there's always that little fundamentalist corner in every mind that wants the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

"The love that allows for detachment brings us back together, when we’re ready. :)"

Beautifully put, if I might say so. :)
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

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jbaxter wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:17 am ...And yet, there's always that little fundamentalist corner in every mind that wants the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
I have reviewed Ziewe's videos and offer these perspectives:

Cayce refers to the completion of the reincarnation cycle as conscious personality merging with soul (IUOC). Campbell theorizes that the experience packet generated from a life experience of the avatar (conscious personality) and its free will return to the IUOC (soul) upon physical death of the avatar (human body). The conscious personality then is stored in the actualized past data base. Ziewe refers to the life experience during a life review as an "information packet". The information packet is available in the cosmic data base (Campbell's actualized past data base).

Ziewe like Campbell emphasizes that metaphors are not to be taken literally. He states we have no control in this PMR. The objective is to find our point of origin while alive. Make contact with where we came from; unity consciousness (Campbell's being level). This suggests that free will exists separate from the avatar (Campbell's FWAU).

Ziewe speaks to the [outer] ego [conscious personality] boundry: leaving the boundary created anxiety (Fenwick and Ranz refer to this as spiritual restlessness). Once on the other side he was there as the higher self (IUOC) liberated from all things PMR. In that state you can (shift to sense data streams) connect to other past lives and relive in any detail [as the actor] (Campbell's actualized past data base). You can look at your own life from different points of view[as the observer]. You do not want to return to PMR anymore (Campbell's detachment). Once you have a taste for it there is nothing to stop you from pursuing it. Fenwick and Ranz speak to the ego personality detaching prior to clinical death.

The grand design of consciousness: millions and billions of realities that are happening simultaneously. Our physical life from the perspective of the higher self (IUOC) is a dream (Campbell speaks from the perspective of the IUOC). We are here for a reason (Ziewe speaks from the perspective of the conscious personality-avatar): we cannot learn this elsewhere. We must face the challenge of overcoming fear (Campbell and Cayce) to liberate ourselves. We are controlled [by fear] in this PMR and must overcome the control [Campbell proposes: by the lowering of entropy).
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Re: Why the MBT does not survive close scrutiny...

Post by Arthur »

A saying in English: " Look after the pennies, and the pounds will take care of themselves."

In this context: Concentrate on Being Good, and the rest will fall into place. Tom gives ample information about this. No harm in indulging in hobby talk (we have to make metaphors, with no absolutes, and it gets many interested), always remembering it's not the prime purpose.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
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