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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Ted Vollers wrote:To all,

Tom and I have both stated more than once that our purpose in participating here within the PMR VR was the interactions with other IUOCs. You will learn that to be true as a caregiver more than anywhere else that I am aware of.

Ted
My parents have insisted that they be moved into a nursing home when they get older.
I admire anyone who has to go through being a caregiver. It's extremely difficult and stressing from what I hear. I know that when I get older, I told my family that I also want to go into a nursing home. Since most of my family members are married, I don't want to rip apart marriages or having them fight over whether or whether or not I should live with them or not...It's not worth it....I"m at peace with who I am, so I'll be content just "existing"......


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:33 pm 
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vestal wrote:My parents have insisted that they be moved into a nursing home when they get older.
I admire anyone who has to go through being a caregiver. It's extremely difficult and stressing from what I hear. I know that when I get older, I told my family that I also want to go into a nursing home. Since most of my family members are married, I don't want to rip apart marriages or having them fight over whether or whether or not I should live with them or not...It's not worth it....I"m at peace with who I am, so I'll be content just "existing"......
Your parents are showing the love and protectiveness for you that you would expect of them, vestal, in not wanting to make themselves a possible burden to you in the future. This is to their credit. My sister and brother-in-law have apparently told their children (who are all married, with kids of their own) the same thing. They have thus released the children (as have your parents) from the obligation of potentially having to care for them, a selfless act which obviously will greatly relieve the pressure on them. But I feel that if any of those children nonetheless felt that they wanted to contribute to any future care needed by their parents (and, importantly, were able to do so), then it would be their free choice to do so regardless of the previously-expressed wish of those parents to the contrary (unless, of course, the relationship between the two parties was poor, and the original wish was made for the opposite reasons to my assumption - not the case in either situation here, of course!).

And I strongly agree with Ted's comment.

Arthur

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:49 pm 
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Arthur wrote:
vestal wrote:My parents have insisted that they be moved into a nursing home when they get older.
I admire anyone who has to go through being a caregiver. It's extremely difficult and stressing from what I hear. I know that when I get older, I told my family that I also want to go into a nursing home. Since most of my family members are married, I don't want to rip apart marriages or having them fight over whether or whether or not I should live with them or not...It's not worth it....I"m at peace with who I am, so I'll be content just "existing"......
Your parents are showing the love and protectiveness for you that you would expect of them, vestal, in not wanting to make themselves a possible burden to you in the future. This is to their credit. My sister and brother-in-law have apparently told their children (who are all married, with kids of their own) the same thing. They have thus released the children (as have your parents) from the obligation of potentially having to care for them, a selfless act which obviously will greatly relieve the pressure on them. But I feel that if any of those children nonetheless felt that they wanted to contribute to any future care needed by their parents (and, importantly, were able to do so), then it would be their free choice to do so regardless of the previously-expressed wish of those parents to the contrary (unless, of course, the relationship between the two parties was poor, and the original wish was made for the opposite reasons to my assumption - not the case in either situation here, of course!).

And I strongly agree with Ted's comment.

Arthur
I agree with you Arthur. Actually with my mother, I could never care for her anyway, because should my father pass away, she would need around the clock care that only a nursing home could provide. My parents nor I would ever be able to afford in home care.
I guess everyone's situation is different though. Wealthier families tend to have more options though.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:16 pm 
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In California they have a program called In Home Supportive Service (IHSS) whose purpose is to keep people in their homes that would otherwise be put in an institution, nursing, or retirement home against their personal wishes and best interest for quality of life issues. IHSS does not provide hours for 24/7 care even if the person needs such protective care, a person such as my son does require 24/7 while IHSS provides 9 hours per day. They, IHSS, require written plans which shows how the rest of the day will be set up for the client, just not the hours they (taxes) provides for, which is fine and understandable. The people providing the care to these clients are called IHSS workers/caregivers. What if 5 people eligible for IHSS care lived together with various reasons for being eligible, such as an adult developmentally disabled person or two having lost their family caregiver/parent, an elderly person or couple perhaps with Alzheimer's, a Down Syndrome love machine, and a more functional person but perhaps with Asperger's or a physical limitation all live together. That would allow interactions and relationships beneficial to those involved to develop, such as hearing the same story repeatedly happily, etc., while reducing the cost for this household to have 24/7 IHSS caregivers. There are only 24 hours in the day and all.

I tried changing my thesis to creating this as a research project recently, but was persuaded not to by my thesis adviser.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:25 am 
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You get what you concentrate on... there is no other rule."
- Seth

-If it's a Law, why don't most men sleep with (insert name of your favourite actress)?
-If it's a Law, why do most people have jobs they can't stand (honest, now!)
-If it's a Law, why are so many Western people on antidepressants or drugs because they can't get anywhere close to what they want?

So far, so bad.

I agree with Soprano that this is a highly dubious "Law". I wouldn't even go so far as Ted and call it a principle, because it's so wayward - some seem to be able to make it work, most clearly can't (consider all those half starving, third world peasants, for instance). Saying that it doesn't work because people aren't focused enough or have ‘low quality intent' is unproven. We can't get inside the minds of others. But we can certainly, easily see massive differences in PMR birth circumstances!

Often those who make a success of their lives apply the rule retrospectively:
Q: "To what do you attribute your success?"
A: "A glass of Guinness a day and unswerving determination to succeed."
Q: "So your rich parents, great good looks, high IQ, private education, natural born coordination and random lucky breaks had nothing to do with it?"
A: "Absolutely not. Those were purely incidental. Apart from the lucky breaks. I manifested those by my intent."

Having said that, I'd be very interested in Vestal's examples. Maybe we can derive a few rules to test!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:08 am 
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vzam wrote:-If it's a Law, why don't most men sleep with (insert name of your favourite actress)?
-If it's a Law, why do most people have jobs they can't stand (honest, now!)
-If it's a Law, why are so many Western people on antidepressants or drugs because they can't get anywhere close to what they want?
It is not a matter of Yes or No. The Principle/Law of Attraction really works. I had experiences myself and I read and heard of a lot of people's experiences as well.

The big mistake is to consider it the only law. It is affected and constrained by other laws and factors.

In this topic discussion is not too much of who's right and who's wrong because mostly everybody is right.

One can say every object in the sky falls because of the Law of Gravity. Now an airplane flies. Somebody then may say: "The Law of Gravity is not true". An airplane flies because of another physical law that creates a lift force that balances out the weight (gravity force). An airplane flying is subject to several physical laws and principles.

Realities are complex. A lot of factors weigh in.

Now adding another flavor to it ... when I met my ex-wife everything went smooth, "attraction working at its perfect level". We had a daughter. I've been married 11 years. Then in 2001 we separated and got divorced. Since my separation I tried with a lot of different women and nothing worked out for too long. At some points I was down and then tried to focus on other aspects of my life. Other aspects of my life worked better ... so now to put things together.

Attraction/Creation Principle is constrained/affected by other Laws/Principles/Factors/Phenomena/Actions/Reactions ... etc. like the following:

1. Your plan. Controlled by your higher self and probably other beings.

If in the plan of your life you were supposed to meet somebody or get something you will most probably get it.

If it is not in the plan or your higher self does not consider it good for you it might be difficult to get.

You want to get rich. If your higher self considers it a good test for you to deal with the tests of being rich, you most probably get it. If not you most probably won't get it.

You can go downstream with your higher self plan (easy way) or upstream (hard way). Get my point?

2. Plans of other beings.

You want to marry somebody. If it was planned it will be easy (it will be planned for her to marry you as well). If it was a "may be planned" now it is also in her plan to see if it is feasible, but also another guy may have a plan or an intention to marry her as well. You see how factors may make something more complicated?

3. PMR rule-sets

Example: people that want to win the lottery. If it was planned for somebody it may happen then. There is a discussion about lottery numbers in the forum. It is not allowed for somebody to win the lottery several times because that can alter the balance of the PMR rule-set.

4. psi- Uncertainty Principle (may be considered part of 3.)

5. NPMR rule-sets

6. Your ability to manipulate NPMR. As I posted previously.

Great capabilty to manipulate NPMR gives more power to CREATE your realities.
Less of these abilities tend more to ATTRACT than CREATE.

7. Entropy

I believe lower entropy allows for more power to CREATE in your realities.




... and I leave other people to add more ...

Love to All,


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:54 pm 
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Claudio, much of what you say makes sense to me. But MBT does not say that we are led by our Higher Self. Rather, the Higher self cedes its free will to the limited PMR self. If the Higher self sets the agenda (as you suggest), then our free will is not truly free will, because it becomes strongly 'weighted'.

This may be so. But MBT does not make that point. For MBT, 'AI Guy' is fully autonomous, although his decision space is limited by his environment and genes.

I'm still very interested in hearing about the *actual methods* used which make this 'Law of Attraction' work (whether permission is granted by the Higher Self or not!)...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:20 pm 
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vzam,

Remember that it is always the higher self. The PMR VR self is the higher self with the virtualization modifications to fit this life package here in PMR. It is always the higher self experiencing each of the VRs through time sharing and the aspect that is 'active' at each moment of time sharing for a given VR is the one with the free will. It is not the higher self as somehow separate and holding onto the free will. It is always the highers self but 'virtualized' for the moment of time sharing for the VR.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:25 pm 
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vzam wrote:Claudio, much of what you say makes sense to me. But MBT does not say that we are led by our Higher Self. Rather, the Higher self cedes its free will to the limited PMR self. If the Higher self sets the agenda (as you suggest), then our free will is not truly free will, because it becomes strongly 'weighted'.

This may be so. But MBT does not make that point. For MBT, 'AI Guy' is fully autonomous, although his decision space is limited by his environment and genes.

I'm still very interested in hearing about the *actual methods* used which make this 'Law of Attraction' work (whether permission is granted by the Higher Self or not!)...
Hi Vzam:

We still have free will. The plan 'suggests' and makes it easy if you go certain way. Don't forget that the higher self is the true you. We hear our higher self through intuition and some people like myself hear it sometimes telepathically, through vibrations and in fully NPMR. The degree of connection with your higher self may vary with different people. Tom writes in his book at the beginning how he was supposed to marry his wife at certain age and he was surprised that his future wife was much younger than him and he finally did marry her. He could have not married her with his free will but I am pretty sure that the fact that he decided to go downstream with his higher self plan made it easy and made the 'attraction' work at its best.

MBT book mentions what we discuss in here. It is just described using other words. We can CREATE thoughts and make those thoughts target what we want and the target receives those thoughts (e.g. telepathy). The process is actually very well described (e.g. last part of book 2).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:29 pm 
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I want to add a perfect example of 'attraction': Healing. You focus on (let's say Ted, actually I did) and you picture him being happy and without any pain and the thoughts are helped to achieve results.

I believe if the cause is right your higher self and other beings are going to help the effect to be more effective. As mentioned in my big post up here your NPMR manipulation ability is a factor too.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:42 pm 
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If there is a law/rules etc., rather than just loose suggestions, it is, Consciousness supports evolution towards Love, in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:58 pm 
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I did just read a few things about the law of attraction and tried to find something analogous in MBT.

- First a link about law of attraction. Look especially at the part with subjective reality...:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/0 ... ttraction/

- Then a few words from MBT, but it seems to correlate strongly with the statements in the link:

"The most obvious pathway to the exploration of consiousness is through the exploration of your personal consciousness - a scientific investigation of your subjective experience. Studying conscoiusness from the outside (objectively) is like studying biology by looking pictures of zoo animals. Consciousness is fundamentally individual and personal. Our objective sense of consciousness is derived from a reflection of our personal consciousness from the uniquely curvy surface of a mirror that we call "another."
Our objective experience of other consciousness is the result of an interaction of our personal consciousness (representing one set of possible choices or ways of being) with another, which suggests to us new configurations, interactions, and possibilities for our being. We project our awareness of consciousness into "other", define the nature of "other" in terms of ourselves, and thus see only a reflection of ourselves in the mirror of interaction with "other"

B1,S2,Ch23

What i understood then:
MBT says therefore we "create" our own reality by reflecting ourselves into everything. That means by changing ourselves from the inner , the external world will change automatically.
The link above from "the law or principle of attraction" says basically the same with the concept of "subjective reality" as a belief system.

Tom says for example fear has the tendency to manifest itself. According to the above statement in MBT, its clear why, fear has a negative impact on the quality of consciousness, and since we see our consciousness and its quality as a reflection in "others or the external", it will "manifest" in "other or external". Same is then for valid for the other direction into a higher QOC.

Alper


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Hi Bette:

Everything is well explained in the MBT books. What we have to do is learn to apply those concepts to the PMR scenarios that we deal with and the questions coming from dealing in our PMR life.

Who knows, may be AUM is thinking about what you just said about Love and Consciousness goal, may be not directly but it is within it.

I sometimes think and talk to some christians let's say:

"Would you act good even if you knew God doesn't exist or God wouldn't compensate you with rewards?"

"What if Tom in his book would write: The final goal of AUM is not Love, it is Knowledge".

I would still have "Unconditional Universal Love" as a goal even if it wouldn't lower the entropy at its best because so far it is my picture of how a "HIGHEST BEING" would act.

In other words we have our piece of the action with what WE CREATE.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:57 pm 
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I just wanted to add one more thing to this thread that I just ran across in the Seth material. I think this is an Excellent overview of the basic principles we've been discussing here. I see no conflict with MBT, and yet another fascinating perspective on our 'situation.'

Seth-
Your experience in the world of physical matter flows outward from the center of your inner psyche. Then you perceive this experience. Exterior events, circumstances and conditions are meant as a kind of living feedback. Altering the state of the psyche automatically alters the physical circumstances.

There is no other valid way of changing physical events. It might help if you imagine an inner living dimension within yourself in which you create, in miniature psychic form, all the exterior conditions that you know. Simply put, you do exactly this. Your thoughts, feelings and mental pictures can be called incipient exterior events, for in one way or another each of these is materialized into physical reality.

You change even the most permanent-seeming conditions of your life constantly through the varying attitudes you have toward them. There is nothing in your exterior experience that did not originate within you.

Interactions with others do occur, of course, yet there are none that you do not accept or draw to you by your thoughts, attitudes, or emotions. This applies in each area of life. In your terms, it applies both before life and after it. In the most miraculous fashion are you given the gift of creating your experience.

In this existence you are learning to handle the inexhaustible energy that is available to you. The mass condition of the world, and the situation of each individual in it, is the materialization of man's progress as he forms his world.

(9:24.) The joy of creativity flows through you as effortlessly as your breath. From it the most minute areas of your outer experience spring. Your feelings have electromagnetic realities that rise outward, affecting the atmosphere itself. They group through attraction, building up areas of events and circumstances that finally coalesce, so to speak, either in matter as objects-or as events in "time."
-Session 613 of the Seth Material

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:04 am 
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Interesting, Cole.
I do see potential conflicts with MBT. For example:
1. MBT has a PMR rule-set that must be obeyed. The rule-set includes "random" elements which are not brought to us by our intent.
2. If, as Seth suggests, we manifest everything, then most of us must be massively out of touch with our true intent. As things in PMR go from bad to worse*, it would appear that our unconscious intent rather than our conscious intent is creating our reality, because our conscious hopes and dreams and daydreams are not being realised.

Surely, Seth goes too far.
*Examples: species extinctions, pollution, poor housing, overpopulation, desertification, climate change are not things we wish for. Yet they happen. They happen because the rule-set brings them on as a by-product of our self-centred actions.


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