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 Post subject: Vegan/vegetarian vs not
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:19 am 
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Certainly, after reading these books and watching some of Mr. Campbell's video, one would have to feel compelled to improve one's consciousness.

Since my unfortunate event, I have felt a lot of changes in my outlook. I have never been a hunter, but I did fish. I mostly did catch and release. However, in my contemplation, I've started to see my catch and release sports fishing model as just flat out cruel. I haven't given away my fishing gear yet, but I probably will.

Also, for health reasons, I have gone the route of "flexible vegan." My wife isn't on board with it, so I have not gone full on vegan. Sometimes I go vegetarian, though I hate eating dairy or eggs, because of the fat. I still eat a little meat, when my wife has made plans. When we eat out, I ALWAYS find the restaurant online and look over the menu to find the fare closest to full vegan that I can find.

If one is striving to improve one state of consciousness, would going vegan (not oppressing animals) fit the model?

It might seem like a dumb question, but it is weighing on me.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:11 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJI68YgN7TY
MBT Forum March 2011 Pt 2/5

1:42 in

"The vegetarian thing is basically about - it's a moral decision. Now to some people it's a nutritional decision or it's something else. But for me it's a more of a moral decision. Other things are there learning and growing and that includes chickens as well. And you raise them to kill them. What are you doing to their opportunity to evolve? Well you may say a cattle pen or a barnyard is a good place to evolve. But is it really? It seems to me you have limited the decision so much by penning them all up in a box that they no longer have the kind of decisions that they would have if they were "wild" - when the cattle or the horses or the chickens or whatever were out doing whatever they did in the wild. They had a much bigger decision space. When you hatch them and keep them in a little box you've kind of taken the decision space away - not entirely - you've just shrunk it down.

So the point is what are you doing? And you have to balance... there's still some decision space. It's just in a little box. If you live in a box by yourself there is very little decision space. So now you've kind of created a branch of these critters that no longer have much decision space or learning curve. But it's not reduced to zero.

They are just consciousness and they are evolving at a level that is effective for them. Now if this reality let's say supports a hundred thousand living critters, course it's billions, and that's because they are raising a whole bunch of them for meat and you took away meat so now it only supports ten thousand critters - the wild critters. Well it's really not that way. It's the opposite of that. There is a lot more wild critters than there are critters in pens. So the opportunity to come back as a critter would probably not be a problem. So I would think that would not be a good excuse.

The repercussions (of eating meat) are mainly there if your awareness supports it. Again it's not the act so much the problem as your awareness of the problem. If your level of awareness is that you eat meat because your family always ate meat then you are probably not losing points because you are eating meat. It's what you do. It's where you are. It's the kind of person you are doing what you do. But if you are aware - well we are aware of some things. Like we don't eat our neighbors. We don't go over and steal the neighbor's children and have them for dinner. We're aware of that. Right? That's not a good idea. Then as our awareness gets bigger you might say - well all those chickens piled one in a box in a barn - five thousand of them - they can't even move. And is that cruel? And what are we doing? Is that a good idea? And you start getting a moral awareness of that not being such a good idea. It's not nice for them.

Now if you start eating lots of chickens or decide to build one of those things for yourself because it's profitable. Suddenly you are going to pay a penalty for that because you know better. Once you know better - as you grow up - you need to act more moral as you become more moral.

No I don't think that people who eat meat are losing points in the evolution game unless they're aware that what it is they're doing as not being moral. Then if they do it anyway they are losing points in the evolution game. So part of it has to do with your level of awareness - what you understand. You need to different things as you grow up. And there is never anyway of going back. You can't unlearn something. You can't say, "Oh, I realize that's immoral but it tastes good!" Now suddenly you're being immoral and you know it. It's you and you're intent. You can't go back and say I didn't learn that. I don't want to know that is immoral. It's inconvenient. You can't do that. Now you're stuck. Now if you decide to something immoral and you know it's immoral - now you pay a penalty in the evolution game."

There is some discussion about hunting which you can listen to. Tom ends the discussion with this.

"Everyone has to come to that moral decision on their own. It depends on their level of awareness that you have. It's an individual sort of decision. You can't say it's a problem for everybody. It's not. It's individual. What's our intent? And if you figure that you are adding to chickens being in little tiny coops then you ought to stop. If you don't have that idea then you maybe go on until you get that idea. So it's not a thing that everybody should do this or everybody should do that. We're all at different stages of growth. Hopefully as we all grow to care more about things we say that's a sentient being. It's evolving like we are. I don't want to over ride its freewill with my freewill. So, "I kill things because I enjoy it." is not necessarily a good reason. "I kill things because I have to live. I have to survive." That's a different reason all together. It's kind of why are you killing? Why are you contributing to the slaughter of that animal? Is it justified in your moral sense? Is it necessary? Do you have to do that? And if it's, "I could be a vegetarian and I could still be healthy and still get along just fine, but I like the taste of flesh and therefore I'll kill it just to feed my life force." Then you are on shaky ice as far as morality goes."


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:25 am 
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Looks like I'm giving away my fishing gear!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:55 am 
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my suggestion is this;

Enjoy the outdoors and when on the water find another past time such as kayaking. i like the sit on top kayaks. some can be had even used for cheap.

many have been raised as a child to be taken hunting by their father. they feel the need to pass on this tradition to their children.

why not continue to enjoy the outdoors but instead just enjoy hiking and the outdoors. I have become more and more interested in wildlife photography. I invite you to go to google now and do an images search for "wildlife photography" and look at some of the epic images people have captured of animals in their natural habitat.

What would i rather do, go out and kill animals and bring back their head to be mounted on my wall at my house or take an amazing image of them, have it framed and hang that on my wall for all to enjoy? the answer is obvious.

who wants the high blood pressure, blockages, impotence and constipation anyways....



I'll share with you a learning opportunity you can do for others if you get good. I have been getting good at getting wild animals to come over to me and say hello. This can work well on the water, even if others are nearby fishing. This is what i would do if i had the opportunity; go and sit in the water about 1 or 2 feet deep. and call over large fish to come and say hello, maybe even ask for help with this. tell them i mean them no harm. then as I have fish all around me pick one up and hold it and ask someone on the beach to take a picture of me with the fish.

then let it go and casually get up and walk back to the beach like it was nothing.

if anyone asks how i did that i will tell them i told the fish i mean them no harm and called them over.

if anyone asked why i did not kill any of the fish to be eaten, i would say hurting animals and the environment when is not necessary is not a good thing, we are not starving.

i have been practicing this with feral cats nearby my work. getting them to come to me. but be CAREFUL around wild animals. do at your own risk..

i can't wait to have more time to enjoy the outdoors and capture some amazing images to hang on my wall. i would like to upgrade my camera equipment and boating equipment as well. my hiking gear is mostly squared away at this point. just want a few more upgrades.

have fun out there! and be safe!


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