Return Home
It is currently Thu Jul 25, 2024 6:34 am

All times are UTC-06:00


Forum rules


Please do not post here except for such confirmations and of course for discussion of such confirmations.



Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: A message for all of us
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:04 am 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
Dear Everyone

I've decided to update the top post, so it's harder to miss that this Thread includes some useful information.

I'll keep older updates and the original post in here, so everyone can see that changing can really be quite easy over a short period of time.

____________________________

Update (July 21th 2024):

If someone doesn't have the time, energy or attention span to read through this thread, I think this video summarizes everything from in here quite neatly (and way better than I could've ever formulated it myself).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWUStOX ... omCampbell

I might not look back into this thread for quite some time. It seems we're on a very good path at the moment and I don't see the need for trying to give advice to seniors of this community.

Keep your hopes high and good luck everyone!
____________________________

Update (July 15th 2024):

Tom's original video (>1h): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t99TLcjNz ... cGF0aHM%3D

My (personal) summary of the keypoints of the video:

Paths to enlightment:
Path of surrender (blindly follow a "higher" source/ authority):
- pros: giving up on control (live out of your being level), giving up on beliefsystems/ expectations from others, highly effective im experiencing "supernatural"/"divine"/"spiritual" phenomens
- cons: giving up on intellect, easy to misinterpret guidance, easy to be manipulated, putting up with fear/ struggling (denying it), not very effective in activily using "supernatural powers"/"miracles" (they happen mostly at random if at all)


Path of service (help others to understand/ grow out of care for them):
- pros: highly effective in helping collective growth, learning what unconditional love (care) really means, highly effective in wanting to reach out to others to connect with them
- cons: easy to be contempt with doing enough for others (ex.: the homeless by giving them some money), easy to look down on others (can foster arrogance/ narcism/ ego), easy to getting consumed by greed for power, forcing your beliefs onto others, ignoring/ leaving power structures/ society ("why should I care about their stupidity" belief)

Path of the warrior (face your fears/ ego head on with all the might and force):
- pros: highly effective in detecting own imperfections, fosters a strong will (intent), makes very resistant to struggles of all kinds (physical/ emotional/ psychological suffering)
- cons: Very hard (you can easily "break"/become "insane" and leash out through for example diving into addiction), difficult to find tools/ strategies to remove beliefs and fears (ego), enforces the will for control, hard to accept advice/ different viewpoints from others

Only through a preferenced (working/ practical) combination of all three paths, true enlightment can emerge and one can grow as an being (move away from fear and towards unconditional love).

Also try to find the right combination of those paths by being kind to yourself and not force yourself.

For me personally it seems I was to stuck in the path of warrior and couldn't accept the path of surrender.
If you fall into the same category I still highly recommend watching those two videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INIG636 ... SMAADallas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtOlwv ... SMAADallas

It should show you pretty clearly that the majority of religious communities are not in any way how most (easily accessable) media tries to portrai them.

Best to all of you!

____________________________

Original Post (June 25th 2024):

Hello There

I'm making this thread in appreciation for one of Tom's videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKvX71JbqW8

If I'm in the wrong sub please move this thread as you see fit but don't just delete it.

____________________________

Why am I doing this and who am I?

I may be one of the first of my kind and thus can give a fresh perspective. Also if others are going through the same right now: you're probably not going insane and you should reach out here if you think you're losing it.
I'm what this community would call an intellectual person but somehow I lived through the dark hour of the soul and survived.
And since then it became abundently clear (with a LOT of guidance) that I have to act. Somehow, someway.

I'm still trying to process it all and my ego is nagging me 24/7 that I should stop because why would I know something that most don't?
I'm not special. I don't even like the spotlight. From the point of view of society I'm probably a complete failure. But not for people who need help the most and I can't ignore my responsibility after all the gifts, guidance and help I've received. It would be the worst crime anyone could ever commit.

So to make some things clear from the start:
- I'm here to tell you that MBT/ LCS is real.
- I'm also here to show you that you should worship the message not the messager. I neighter want or need anything from anyone who isn't ready to listen and even then I'm not interested in what most humans value and worship.
- I do not care if you believe me or if you know something I don't. Take it all in (if you're brave enough) and then try to deepen your understanding of what this all is.
- I would really appreciate it if you could abstain from harassing, threatening or even killing me, my closest of kin and especially the content creators from which I share videos/ articles. I'm sharing this because I don't want this world to end in the hellscape it's heading towards right now.

For anyone still reading: The core concept of the message is love, harmony and cooperation.
I also want to instill some sence of urgency and accountability while still ease the tense in our rather complicated collective lifes right now.

Please be aware that I'll withhold information, my sources or change my plans on how to help humanity based on you're acting and reacting.
So if you really want to learn to understand and be an empowering force be kind to yourselves, each other and any source I share (I'm not in any way affiliated with any of them).

____________________________

If the message is so simple and positive, why is it so hard to get it right?

I'm using a though experiment based on rats and gross over simplifications as well as some religiuous references. Please don't be offended by any of that. I do not mean or wish to look down on anyone or anything.

So imagine you've some rats which you dearly love and know by name so you buy them the best high-class enclosure you can find. You give them everything they need to survive and even thrive.
After a while you take a look and see their descending into chaos. They fight, shit where they eat, get sick or even kill themselves. So you try to approach the enclosure to remove them and clean it and give them medicine and what not. But the rats are scared to death by the holy hand descending from the sky.
They cry out in desperation: "Please do not harm us, we'll do better. To prove this we'll even sacrifice our most pure and best to please you."
Horrified you step away and try to think of a way to tell them that you mean no harm. But how could you? You maybe understanding their fear but they're not capable of grasping this.

As the caretaker of this beloved pets, what would you do to ease their suffering while not sending them into deeper chaos?
Maybe some rats are not so scared and you can guide them how to care for them all? Maybe you'll take one out and show it not only that there's more than the enclosure but that there are many holy hands from the sky and they do not mean any harm.
You put this rat back so it can tell all the other rats that there's nothing to fear. "Liar", they cry out but you show them things they never imagined possible. And then they threaten and kill your most beloved rat and all who tried to listen. Because surely, why would the holy hands from the sky choose a nobody over a true believer?
This repeats for some time while the collective knowledge increases or decreases. At some point the knowledge has increased high enough that you can put in your newest breed of rats. The intellectual rats, maybe even a Einstein rat. But even that is not enough. So you try mixures of both genetics and experiences until you get the mix right and they finally get a little grasp of everything.

So the rats need some basic understanding as well as tools to feel more secure in their ways.
Maybe the rats finally have everything they need to deepen their knowledge? Only time will tell.

Or to put it more simply: Humanity needs a pretty objective language as well as a understanding of the very little and the very big to enforce an almost impossible to corrupt base message.
As far as I can tell mathemathics and by extension probability theories are the most objective language we've ever invented.

____________________________

"I don't get the how but the why. How should I act until I've a deeper understanding?"

For the most part you can act according to game theory. Veritasium made a nice video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTI ... Veritasium

In Essence it's:
- Be nice to everyone by default
- Be forgiving to everyone (within limits, at least until the world calms down)
- If being attacked in anyway, strike back (please read the passage below)
- Be clear and predictable in your actions (-> be consistent, so you can build trust)

But to make sure you don't misinterpret the "strike back" part, I'll specify it a bit more.
Before that let me say that I'm in no way a religious person nor do I follow any cults or conspiracy circles.

Let me use some interpretations from the Quran (this are my interpretations and mine alone):
- When confronted with a conflict try to use words and reason first to de-escalate the situation.
- If this doesn't work, try to flee and find help (if anyone is still in danger after you're safe).
- If this doesn't work use any and all ways to intiminate or confuse the attacker (it's still better than violence).
- If you're physically attacked, you're allowed to use (at most) the same force as was applied against you. It's never okay to kill another human being.
- If the situation is already so bad (for example a gun is pointed at you) that you can't use any moderate reaction and (by accident) kill the other person it's "permissable". Do not think you can fool anyone if you killed someone with intend and try to mask it as an accident.

This is based on (please do not ask me for the exact words or verses, I'm not religious. Ask an holy person which you can trust for more details.):
- Killing is forbidden. If you do not understand this you do not understand the message of Quran.
- If you're attacked at the holy mosche fight back but within reason (for allah doesn't like transgression).

____________________________

For the believers

If you're a devoted believer and think hell exists or that anyone or anything has done something so bad that they will burn alive.. forever.. and this is just..
Please. Read. Your. Holy-Texts.

If you're part a religiuous community which preaches such non-sense leave. One day you'll know the truth and trust me it will hurt worse than any physical pain imaginable because you'll understand what you've done onto others.
If your are the majority in such a community try to convince others (or even the preacher) to re-think their world view.

If you think I just don't understand god please watch this two videos to see what the majority of your kin (no matter the religion) really think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INIG636 ... SMAADallas
If you want more here's another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtOlwv ... SMAADallas

And since Islam is at the moment the one which is used the most to corrupt our collective humanity (no, I'm not saying it's a problem of the religion. It's a problem of using theologie for manipulation and power), I want to share this one to give everyone a better understanding of islamic culture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM6XHOU ... l-Bayyinah

Also very important: Do. Not. Use. Google-Translate to interpret ancienty/ holy texts.

____________________________

For the intellectuals

First of I do not recommend trying to achieve the dark hour of the soul for anyone. The ways and tools Tom has given us are by far the most kind and soft way to become aware.
But if you're already struggling with opening your eyes to "supernatural" experiences, you'll most likely go insane, hurt yourself or others and maybe especially those who are closest to you.

But I also know that some still are foolish enough to try it so when you can't recover, strengthen all your willpower and repeat anything that enforces devotion to acceptance and love.
For example I've used a lot of anger to express my unwillingness to give up "now that I'm starting to understand and can help them".
The ritual doesn't matter. What you use to express your intend is irrelevant. Only what you try to manifest (or the meaning you give words or any ritual).

If you've found yourselves always explaining away such experiences because they seem like you've gone psycho or shizo or whatever, try to really I mean REALLY ask yourself:
Am I exhibiting any destructive or malicious symptoms which are normally associated with the type of insanity I think I have? Or am I only manipulating myself into believing the "symptoms" are malicious (see how to act/ game theory for a better differentiation).

Trust me, Tom's right. When you become aware it feels like your whole being re-organizes itself. It's not wise to haste this process.

So if anything and all things Tom has teached you don't work and you can't make sense of this part of the message, try another way to approach truth. Maybe help extend MBT in a scientific way?

____________________________

Finally for the scientific community...

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding something in Tom's experiments, if he got something wrong and is being tested by the LCS or already knows this and tests us buuuut... it doesn't really matter, so here it goes:

Am I correct in the assumption that the experiments are based on a frequentist approach to probability theory while a baysian approach might be more suitable for explaining rapid changes in probability?

It doesn't seem far fetched to imagine that reality doesn't have any objective hidden variable and instead is the result of interacting (for lake of a better word) "subjective" probility distributions. It would also better match with the interpretation that uncertainty is fundamental because static systems aren't alive (conscious).
Such a theory also seems to hold much more weight in not only unifing our physical theories but also explaining things like emergences, Psi-uncertainty principle, manifestion (or any other "supernatural" skills) while also giving us tools to estimate the limits of such skills/ tools to change reality and estimate for example the complexity (growth) of different conscious systems and how to optimize their usage.
To make it a bit more clear what I mean is: If we could formulate such a theory it would really be a TOE which can be used in all kinds of disciplines.

For example:
- Restore lost history with a certain degree of accuracy
- Restore the "true" message spread throughout ancient and holy-texts (even if some parts won't be disclosed to the public)
- To estimate how conscious any "living" system is

Spoiler alert: A lot more is conscious as you might think and we should redefine it (also this should bridge the knowledge gap between Toms explanation of reality as VR while not contradicting any physics theory)
https://phys.org/news/2023-12-explores- ... tails.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXElfzV ... ntonPetrov

So yeah... doesn't seem like AGI is coming any time soon ;D One less worry...

The issue is... not even the scientific community knows how to "instinctivitly" use baysian. Maybe we start there? Baysians of the world we need your aid to teach us your ways.
See for yourself why that's an issue with current scientific "dogma" (or application of probability theory in science): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG4VkPoG3ko

Baysian is probably not a close enough approximation for a TOE but it's a starting point if nothing else.

There's more I would like to discuss about this but for my rather soon approach to baysian theorem, I'll better leave this to the experts in such topics.

Ah and if this is to complex for you but you still want to help, I think we all (humanity) would appreciate if you could spread the news about climate experts ignoring "hot models": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S9sDyo ... ssenfelder
I think we all can agree that we would like to not have to live through the worst humanitarian catastrophe because of some "believes" ;)

____________________________

Final words...

So all in all I'll hope this message is a force of good and that my ego didn't interfere to much.
I'm also thankful for all the beings of love who don't wanna give up on us.

Don't be afraid. There is nothing to BE afraid of. And don't take life to serious. Have some fun, you've earned it. Reality is the most harmonic and fair thing/ system you could ever imagine. All the unfairness comes from misunderstanding which leads to fear which leads to power structures (authoritarian politics for example)...
You are the main character. You matter. It's not to late we have all the time in the world to change things for the better, for all of humanity, forever. But it's going to take a lot of bravery to accept the truth and start taking responsibility for ourselves.

I believe in you. We believe in you. Humanity believes in humanity.

Ah and please don't kill yourself. If anything it just makes matters worse, especially for you.

(Based on my current life situation I'll take some time to figure things out and try to better myself. If nothing really bad happens in my life, you'll hear from me at lastest in 2 weeks. Stay open-minded (uncertainty is a feature) and skeptic (fear is not needed here)).

I'm not a native english speaker but I'll take full responsibility for any typos. Those are mineeeee... and mine alone XD


Last edited by NexorProject on Sun Jul 21, 2024 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2024 5:52 pm 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
Wow not a single response or PM, I may have been a bit to harsh in my wording.

Please know, I didn't wanted to discourage anyone from asking questions especially critical ones. Also you're absoluty allowed to point out if you think I got something wrong and can give a reason why as well as a source (if it's from Tom's videos, the broader MBT community or somewhere/ someone else doesn't matter to me).
I'm still trying to figure this out as we all are. I WILL make mistakes and I hope you'll help me gain more understanding as I'm trying to do the same for all and any of us.

I just wanted to point out to all of you that the only way for growth is to find a way to approach truth by incorporating as many different views (belief systems) as possible while not giving any of them to much credability over any other until you're starting to see that almost every viewpoint contains part of the truth (but none contains it all).
Only then you can build up a healthy beliefsystem which allows you to use tools of the LCS more effectively.

Another point I was trying to make is that existence itself is a "miracle" we just have grown to stubborn to allow ourselfes to see that. So we are prone to ignore or even misinterpret a lot of our day to day experiences. There's no special trick or skill you've to learn to gain a lot of effectiveness in increasing your growth.

If you're having issues making sense of some thing, I might be able to help if your journey looked anything like mine. Otherwise I might be able to point out a source which helps with understanding which is better at explaining or communicating as me.

If you are already more aware of the larger reality than I am, I might not have much to offer.

My apologies if my last post seemed a bit jugdemental. I hope you can understand that this wasn't my intention but that I think you understand why I try to be careful with the current state of our agreed upon collective beliefsystem (or as you might call it: objective reality).


Top
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 12:04 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
Hey Nexor,

You didn’t do anything wrong, there just isn’t much activity on the forum anymore.

I generally agree with your sentiment. Yes, we should explore as far and as wide as possible and without attachment to any particular thing or idea.

That being said, It is ok to make choices based on personal preference. Doing so does not invalidate the preference or “truth” in choice of the other. If one is happy with the consequences of the choices they’ve made then they have made valid choices.

All that being said again, this PMR tends to delay the results(outcome) or consequences of choice therefore making it difficult to correlate the chain of choices that lead to the outcome, obscuring causality.

All the best to you. :)


Top
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:37 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 463
"All that being said again, this PMR tends to delay the results(outcome) or consequences of choice therefore making it difficult to correlate the chain of choices that lead to the outcome, obscuring causality."

Yes, you're right. I always think this when I read Tom Campbell saying "pay attention to the feedback", because feedback within our own lifetimes is often poor, false or even nonexistent.

I think this would limit the usefulness of Bayesian probability.


Top
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:07 am 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
I'm both in awe and really sad by reading your replies.

It seems whatever has remained of the MBT community and all that are coming back have gone through a lot of growth. At least it feels this way from your replies (in contrast to how it felt to reach out here before).
But also it hurts real bad to see how little is needed to have it so much better. I know I shouldn't be to hard on myself for my ignorance but I think it's good that it hurts that way so I maybe able to contact some of the people who I've met ovver the years to help them so I might be able to forgive myself my own ignorance one day.

Also religion was a critical part of me become as aware as I am now. So I'll give the symbolism a bit more credit than I should do but I try not to interpret too much into it.

And my idea on Baysian was more based on that our perception of the meaning of words has changed a lot throughout time (like in ancient texts the sky and sea are described as green or that eskimos see more shades of blue because they have more definitions for them).
So to make it bit more clear what I was trying to say: If we pull our best experts in any topic regarding the past together with Baysians (even when only using publicly available information), we might be able to create good prior distribution to find an approximation of reality (or even get an idea of how such a TOE could look like).

But that would only be relevant if Tom's experiments would fail or not give clear conclusions.

Thanks a lot again for your replies it gave me a lot more hope for our future :)
And all the best to the both of you too!


Top
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:50 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
Hi Nexor,

Don’t be surprised if those you would help refuse your efforts. If they are above the age of majority then it must be understood that “imposing” help, when not asked is an infringement upon free will.

The sky and the sea may indeed be green. Who is to say that your blue is not my green? Reality is perception and perception is reality.

The way to come together while experiencing our separate selves in PMR is through “Synesthesia“. The “expert” in Synesthesia is present in the creator of all forms of art. True art is an exercise in synesthesia.

For instance, a cold arctic sea could be described as “blue”, a tempreate lake could be described as “green”, and a hot tropical sea could be described as “Red”.

While not scientifically(objectively) precise, using sound, sight, taste, touch and smell in such a way so as to mix sensory metaphors, can and often does paint a “subjectively precise” picture in one’s mind.

Synesthesia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia


Top
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:43 am 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
Hi VB

Thanks a lot for this part of your post:
"Don’t be surprised if those you would help refuse your efforts. If they are above the age of majority then it must be understood that “imposing” help, when not asked is an infringement upon free will."
I do not fully understand it so I put real effort into doing so. But it was the sign I needed (to not say it in such a cryptic way) to understand that I should not be to much into their faces with my current knowledge.
Thanks a lot (really xD)!

If you think that anything else you said contradicts what I'm trying to say, I'll challange you to read the parts which you disagree with over.
You may already be more aware of this all than you give yourself credit for.

But also... I might have corrupted some parts by accident as I'm still learning and growing from moment to moment.

Best regards
Nexor


Top
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:06 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
There isn’t anything I particularly disagree with.

I like your analogy of your pet rats. There are many people who theorize that we are like that in relation to extra terrestrial intelligences, and that we are on the verge of joining the larger PMR community. Some say these ETs are benevolent some insist they are malevolent. I tend to think it is more complex than just being black or white. If you look at how we treat our “pets” some of them we use for food, others we treat as members of our own family, sometimes even better. Some ETs may use us as food and some may try to treat us as family.

I have a friend who has a dog named Eddie. Eddie is a very nice well behaved dog but incredibly spoiled by my friend and his wife. The dog is over weight and will most likely not live as long as he would if he wasn’t as fat as he is. There have been a few times when I have watched Eddie when they’ve gone on vacation. I’ve noticed how Eddie will not eat food from his dish, he is reluctant even when I’ve put scraps of “people” food in his dish. I have wondered how this dog got so fat. Since then I’ve noticed that my friend and his wife always feed him from their own hands the same thing they are eating. I went on a walk in the park with my friend and Eddie, it was an hot summer day. About every 5 minutes my friend would stop and pour water into his hand from a bottle and offer it to the dog, most of the time Eddie would refuse. Where we went on the walk was almost entirely dependent on the direction Eddie wanted to go. Eddie has been trained and only finds pleasure in being “served” by his masters. Eddie is undisciplined, Eddie always gets what he wants and more. Eddie is the king of his domain.

Now my friend believes that he is being “nice” to the dog but there are some theories that say that often domesticated pets especially dogs and cats will reincarnate in their next life as a human for the first time. As wild animals dogs and cats have no human like individual identity. They live as a member of the pack or pride and they serve their role as a member. Here we are giving them names and providing everything for them, expecting nothing from them except their love. We often treat them better than our own family members, after all, humans should know better, right?

If it is true that Eddie’s next life will be as a human it will probably be very difficult and confusing. He will be left wondering, “where did all the love go”? Trained and disciplined “service dogs” will probably find there first human life a bit easier. I guess my point is that it is not necessarily doing us a favor if our “gods” were to do everything for us and provide us everything. In fact it would probably infantilize us which would NOT be nice.

________________________

I agree with your thoughts on behavior.

Treat others as you would treat yourself.

I’m pretty sure my friend is treating his dog as he would like to be treated but without a deeper understanding that being “nice” is not always, being “nice”. My friend and his wife have no children. If they did have a child, I find it hard to believe that they would treat their child like they treat their dog. Though it seems some parents are coming close these days. How they treat Eddie is due to ego, not love. They treat Eddie as they do because it makes THEM feel good. It is selfish and has nothing to do with Eddie’s well being.

_________________________

I agree with your thoughts on religion.

Though most religions have a seed of truth they have become institutions of control. When you have the vast majority of people that dont understand deeper truth the easiest thing to do is scare them into submission. I think this type of mindset is slowly going away though, people are “believing” less and less.

__________________________

I generally agree with your thoughts on intellectuals.

My understanding of “the dark night of the soul” is that sometimes it just happens to people. I dont know why anyone would go looking for it. If those who haven’t experienced it are foolish enough to try to induce such an experience they will find out that they already were insane. lol.

I think that if “the dark night of the soul” happens to you, whether it was sought after or just happened spontaneously, it was because it was necessary.

People generally want to believe that they are all good, they deny and ignore their “dark side”. The problem with this is that the “dark side” is to be integrated not denied. We are all a part of, and a holographic fractal microcosm of ALL THAT IS. We are all both “dark” and “light”.

Though I do think my friend genuinely believes he is doing the best for Eddie, he is not able to see the potential harm in his actions, nor the true reason for them(his ego). He will at some time have to face himself honestly, wether intentionally or spontaneously. I dont think my friend is ready for such self knowledge, most likely not in this lifetime, but it will need to be integrated eventually. Because I can see he’s not ready I am gentile in what I express to him in this regard. There would be no advantage for any one to press the “truth” too hard, as everyone has what they “think” they want in the “now moment”.

________________________

As far as science goes, I don’t “trust the science”. Science is a religion like any other.

MBT tries to incorporate science and consciousness and does a decent job of it. But the whole problem in the first place is the separation of the two. There really is no “hard” objective reality other than the existence of consciousness itself. What we call “reality” is just an experience. No two IUOC will share the exact same experience so ultimately “reality” can only ever be “approximately objective”.

Science as it is thought of tries to “look out there” and determine what is real. The only thing it will ever find “looking out there” is experience. The experience is real as an experience but experience is infinite. As Tom says “nothing that is real is infinite”. Experience comes and goes it can be remembered and forgotten. The immaterial thing(that is not a thing) that is real and eternal is the ONE consciousness that we all are that is having the experience.

Science in general looks at every “thing” backward. Consciousness is fundamental all else is virtual and flows from Consciousness.

I think the Baysian idea is generally correct. In this PMR, what we experience is largely based on belief in perceptual agreements between participants. Belief can be defined as the “rule set” that determines the rendering of a (virtual)reality that we experience.

What we experience and what is possible in our reality changes as we drop old beliefs, such as hellfire and damnation, and adopt new more expansive ones.

“Science” was once one of these more expansive ideas. It initially freed us from the confines of the Middle Ages, but it has become, like every other organized institution, a tool of control, used by those who wish to maintain their status of power over others. Science has become an institution of dogma just like the religions that proceeded it.

When we can finally drop the belief in “external authority and responsibility ” we will be able to adopt the belief in “internal authority and responsibility” and a new age will have arrived, much more expansive than any that proceeded it.
_________________

I think we are pretty much saying the same things in our own ways. ;)


Top
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:51 am 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
Hi VB

Wow that was so much more than I though and I really enjoyed the read ;D
Yes, we see it mostly the same but I want to clarify some things I've said before and then go into some aspects where I think we both might gain some growth from it.

Since we're both part of the MBT community, I try to use the symbolism (or language) of MBT, so it isn't so hard for us both to communicate. And hopefully it helps anyone who reads this thread in the future.

________________________

When I said: "I'm an intellectual who survived the dark hour of the soul.", I mean: By all accounts I've witnesses so far it's a very hard thing to "survive". Especially if your "core beliefs" are rooted in State-of-the-Art Science. So I really tried to prove to myself (with any and all models, methods and overly generous probabilities) that I'm just insane... and... I failed. The more I accepted this the faster I learned more.

When I said: "I might be the first of my kind", I mean: It seems that my journey and becoming aware was a very risky experiment. But from high risk comes great possibility for benefit. Since it seems I'm getting the hang of things more and more, I'll try to let all of existence benefit from it as much as possible because:
1. I don't wish this experience of a journey on my worst enemies (even I do not care very much about it now, it was a living hell for most of my life).
2. Who knows how stable I am (if you see me as an experiment) and when I will disintegrate into "insanity". So I'll give my best to be as careful and confident at the same time, as I can (not giving any symbolism/ belief to much meaning over any other).

When I said: "You're probabily not going insane", I mean: I fully understand how this experience can make someone believe they're insane. I show all the symptoms of psychosis, schizophrenia etc. I just don't care very much about it. And you know what? Almost all negative aspects of this "diagnoses" disappear while I'm getting my life back on track and become more effiecient at helping my most loved ones and I am happier, more at peace with myself and feel more as a whole than ever.
But I also know that I could never "proof" this to anyone as it would conflict with the true wish of existence: To prosper more and suffer less (evolve or disintegrate). No individual or group is as important than the well being of the whole.

And for any skeptic out there: I've gone through all and any available medications and therapies which I have access to in my country. I also life in a country who's healthcare system is considered very good and "advanced".
I also did not stop trying new therapies or medications until current geopolitical/ socioeconomic factors contributed to medication shortages, which caused problems with finding alternatives and adjusting dosages and in trying to do so multiple involved parties almost killed me (purerly by accident).
Also my diagnoses are more in the spectrum of trauma and anxiety and not delusions/ hallucinations or such things (until I almost died).


________________________

I also think I now understand the part of your last message with which I had issues.

Can you confirm for me that: "If they are above the age of majority then it must be understood that “imposing” help, when not asked is an infringement upon free will."
Contains "essentially" the same symbolism Tom uses when he says "If you take something out of someone and it comes right back, leave it, it may have been put there for a reason" (not sure how accuratelly I quoted him).

?

If yes, I hope you see we're all talking about the same thing (Tom, you and I) even if we all use different "symbolism". Otherwise could you make it more digestable for a more "intellectual" person XD?

________________________

Also I want to explain a bit more what the dark hour of the soul is, why it's so "risky" and how this might imply why none of us can "proof" anything to a broader audience.

But I try to explain it in as much "grounded in reality" symbolism as I can, so it's easier for "intellectual" people to understand.

Imagine you would become aware of every feeling, perception, thought (just everything) from each cell of your body. All at once. From one second to another.
What do you think would this do to your mind? To your psyche? Maybe it would split apart into a million pieces (or only two: the ego and the self)?

So I'm sure it's easy to grasp why no-one is allowed to break the whole human collective to "proof" one community or symbolism right, right? XD

________________________

I also think you're missing a few points I was trying to make. So I'll try to clear them up. If we're already on the same page you can ignore any "corrections".

You almost fully missed the point of me bringing up the symbolism of religion. I wanted to convey that our collective perception has been so skewed (doesn't matter if this was by design or not) that most symbolism (what NPMR, PMR or Humanity has created to chip away at what the fundamentals of existence are) has in the best case scenario lost almost all relevance and in the worst scenario even reversed it's original meaning.
Also I wanted to convey that we just believe that the majority of ANY ideologie (science, esoteric, religion, politics) is corrupted but it's not.
We are just not open-minded enough to really talk with anyone from a pro/con or inside/outside community perspective.

And since it's already so hard to convey any "truth" with existing symbolism, do know how easy it is to further corrupt it? And those who seek power and greed know very well how good such tactics work. I don't think or believe that anyone knows "why" it works but how to apply it.

(To take a little breather, I really liked your story of your friend and his dog. It showed me that you can sense at least a little of the truth, why we need to do better as a whole).

________________________

And you may have misunderstood that in some regards, we're already in alignment xD I think it's just fair if I also try to convey this.

When you wrote: "No two IUOC will share the exact same experience so ultimately “reality” can only ever be “approximately objective”."
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. There is a fundamental reality but no objective reality.
So my idea and explanation of using "Baysian" is just my "best guess" at the time. I'm certain that we need more tools to translate and distill all the symbolism of existence to which any of us have access to getting better at approximating the fundamentals of reality.

I think the LCS is doing the same through us XD In a sense at least. I don't think the LCS doesn't know the fundamentals. It's just trying to find tools to optimize the fundamentals for "itself" (all of us, the whole of existence).

You also wrote: "What we experience and what is possible in our reality changes as we drop old beliefs, such as hellfire and damnation, and adopt new more expansive ones.What we experience and what is possible in our reality changes as we drop old beliefs, such as hellfire and damnation, and adopt new more expansive ones."
Which is also exactly the point I'm trying to make XD I just hope I can guide us in a way to become more effiecient at that by showing that "ignoring" any symbolism (belief/ viewpoint) is (maybe, I don't really know honestly) not the way to change our collective beliefsystem.

And finally you wrote: "When we can finally drop the belief in “external authority and responsibility ” we will be able to adopt the belief in “internal authority and responsibility” and a new age will have arrived, much more expansive than any that proceeded it."
I really hope that any and all reading this (directly or through another "teacher"/"filter"/"prophet") can contribute to this.

________________________

I also wanted to point out that I really like this views of yours and you should keep them for as long as they're healthy for your journey:

"People generally want to believe that they are all good, they deny and ignore their “dark side”. The problem with this is that the “dark side” is to be integrated not denied. We are all a part of, and a holographic fractal microcosm of ALL THAT IS. We are all both “dark” and “light”."

"As far as science goes, I don’t “trust the science”. Science is a religion like any other."

________________________

The rest you'vve wrote I either appreciated, understood or agreed with, so I can't say much more about that :)

Also note, not everything I wrote was directed only at you (VB) but also some others who might come across this. If you're not sure if something is directed at you, just ask xD

All the best to you, your friends and Eddie <3


Top
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:43 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
Hi Nexor,

You said: Wow that was so much more than I though and I really enjoyed the read ;D

Thanks, I always aim to please. Lol. ;)

_____________

You said: I also think I now understand the part of your last message with which I had issues.

Can you confirm for me that: "If they are above the age of majority then it must be understood that “imposing” help, when not asked is an infringement upon free will."
Contains "essentially" the same symbolism Tom uses when he says "If you take something out of someone and it comes right back, leave it, it may have been put there for a reason" (not sure how accuratelly I quoted him).


Yes that is correct. Some people “need” their afflictions. It can be a part of their learning at a “higher” level of consciousness.

______________

You said: So I'm sure it's easy to grasp why no-one is allowed to break the whole human collective to "proof" one community or symbolism right, right? XD

Right. In fact, there really is no “right” as far as I know. There is what is personally preferred based on QOC and decision space but that is about it.

______________

You said: You almost fully missed the point of me bringing up the symbolism of religion. I wanted to convey that our collective perception has been so skewed (doesn't matter if this was by design or not) that most symbolism (what NPMR, PMR or Humanity has created to chip away at what the fundamentals of existence are) has in the best case scenario lost almost all relevance and in the worst scenario even reversed it's original meaning.
Also I wanted to convey that we just believe that the majority of ANY ideologie (science, esoteric, religion, politics) is corrupted but it's not.
We are just not open-minded enough to really talk with anyone from a pro/con or inside/outside community perspective.


When we become “wise” to this, when we have integrated our “dark side” we no longer need to be complicit with it. We cannot be open minded when we have only “half a mind”.

You said: And since it's already so hard to convey any "truth" with existing symbolism, do know how easy it is to further corrupt it? And those who seek power and greed know very well how good such tactics work. I don't think or believe that anyone knows "why" it works but how to apply it.

There may be those who know why and how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASUHN3gNxWo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57UBuxnicOA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=204aGDVa3Vw

__________________

You said: I just hope I can guide us in a way to become more effiecient at that by showing that "ignoring" any symbolism (belief/ viewpoint) is (maybe, I don't really know honestly) not the way to change our collective beliefsystem.

That may be taking a lot on your shoulders depending on what you mean by “guiding us” I.E. the world? But in any case, I agree that ignorance is a bad idea. Something can be learned from anything even if it is not preferable.

__________________

You said: Also note, not everything I wrote was directed only at you (VB) but also some others who might come across this. If you're not sure if something is directed at you, just ask xD

These are the only things that I felt I could clarify. If there is anything else you’d like me to address let me know. :)


Top
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 1:54 am 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
Hi VB

No, there is nothing more you need to address. I really appreciate the guidance.
I've just finished the first of the videos you shared and I can tell you that very little made me feel uncomfortable in it. Mostly it made me more "compassionate" and "courageous" to "act".

So it seems we really are very much aligned in our "views". But I'm still very "ignorant".
I'll continue to enjoy the content, their creators and any other guidance I can take from it and I "believe" I can make good use of it.

(For anyone who has read this far, I'll look into this thread from time to time to see if anyone is desperate for guidance but I also think you should have more than enough to guide yourself).

All the love to you all


Top
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:50 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
You can’t be blamed for being in a state of nescience, but if you find yourself in ignorance it’s all on you. ;)

Good luck to you!


Top
 Post subject: Update to original post
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:58 am 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 21
Dear Everyone

I've updated my original post with some information that helped me greatly bring some things into perspective.
I hope it can do the same for you.

I also plan on re-reading Tom's books. If you find the information I provided (in the original post) helpful, it might be a good idea for you to do the same.
I seem to have forgotten a lot of the things which Tom mentioned in his books.

Have a nice one!
Nexor


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited