Dear Tom,

You refer that there is no experience without free will and I can´t agree with you.
I wonder, on the one hand, if any victim of rape would agree with you and, on the other hand, if somebody is misleaded to drink something with LSD, if they are not having an experience.
Another issue I would like you to comment upon is related with drugs, specially cannabis (THC) and dimetiltriptamine (DMT), and their influence on perception and thus on conscience.
Best regards,
JMBD

JMBD,

Until Tom has the opportunity to respond to you, let me point out that you are totally misunderstanding the concept of free will. Free will is of the nature that you have the opportunity to make a choice between say, alternate decision A and alternate decision B. There may even be an imbalance between these options such that A is much more desirable than B for some reason, perhaps even prohibitively so. That does not mean that you could not still pick either option A or option B, just that you are more likely to pick A because of these other aspects/results of the decision. The options you mention have nothing to do with free will, at least on the victims part. You are instead describing victimization by force and being mislead. Being lied to or physically attacked may subject you to things that violate your free will choice for these negative things not to happen. But this does not mean that you do not possess free will. Only that someone has robbed you of your free will choice in these circumstances. What you would choose can go astray and often does without negating the fact that you could and did make a choice.

Tom may have knowledge of the effects of these chemicals you ask about on perception and conscience. They are not however part of the things described in My Big TOE. Tom's scientific experience has been unrelated to drugs and their effects and his many year study of consciousness and Consciousness Space has been un related to the use of drugs. These drugs, their use and effects relate entirely to things within the PMR virtual reality. Can you clarify your question so that Tom can provide a better answer or determine that he can answer the question or not?

Ted

Hi JMBD:

Skipping the drugs related question I am going to try to answer. Are you sure Tom said that? I know he said: "There can't be evolution without free will".
Experience has 2 interdependent components:
1. Sensory perception (input data (in MBT model the input data is a virtual reality)).
2. Interpretation of that perception by our consciousness (us). Our past experiences and the quality of our consciousness affect our interpretation.

In your examples 1. was not in control by that person (consciousness). As players in a multiplayer Virtual Reality there are times that we don't have too much control of the input. The extreme case would be that somebody kills us and "Game Over". I pressume and somebody can correct me if I am wrong that the free will applies to what you can do in managing you as a player in a VR. There is a concept called "decision space". Your free will and every consciousness free will acts on that decision space. The decision space changes in time as the VR changes dynamically.

In your examples the limitation was mainly in the "decision space", not the free will.

Imagine you are driving a car in a big wide road with no traffic and no lanes and no speed limits. That is a big decision space. You can make any turns you want, u-turns, go fast, slow, stop. A small decision space would be a very narrow straight road as wide as the car you are driving, with a maximum speed of 40mph and a minimum of 40 mph with cops all over the place. So, you can only go straight at 40mph. There's not too much of free will you can apply in that situation.

Hope I helped on something. I am just seeing Ted answer but I guess mine will add another angle.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

Welcome to Tom's discussion board JMBD. Drugs change our perceptual ability and perceptions in Physical Matter Reality (PMR) while at the same time dampening our ability to access NonPhysical Matter Reality (NPMR), or ability shift conscious awareness in a useful for evolution of consciousness way, as I understand it. LSD and THC are both considered hallucinogens according to my Neuropsychopharmaceutical text book from 2005. I believe it safe to say Tom is anti-drug, sees no pragmatic use, as I understand him. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2728&p=9672&hilit=drugs#p9672, viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3654&p=9473&hilit=drugs#p9473, viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3102&p=7843&hilit=drugs#p7843, to show several examples of where I came to think that. Decision space is not an issue here, that changes size per what type of animal we are, or our functional ability as humans with larger amounts of choices we can make (compared to a clam for instance), don't let it confuse things with free-will now though although it is related, as all is. Welcome again.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

good topic. Regarding drugs, while I've never had any interest in them myself, I know that LSD allows people to access the NPMR extremely easily, BUT not worth. the health risks in my opinion. Although some of the stories I've read about people on LSD are pretty mindblowing...Still in MY opinion it's not worth the health risk.

Hi Soprano,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azzAUNeV ... re=related
"You have to have experience, right?, is all based on experience, and the experience... you have to have free will. If you don't have free will you can't learn..."

JMBD,

Everyone has to have free will. Otherwise you as an individual cannot learn from interaction with others who do not have free will. The basic way the Consciousness System works. Your statement does not imply that this is not so, but it does not make clear that it is so. Therefore I point out this detail.

Ted

Hi JMBD:

Thank you for sending me his quote. "If you don't have free will you can't learn" is similar to what he writes in his book: "... there can't be consciousness evolution without free will". Did you understand from Ted's posts and mine the difference between free will (which everyone has) and decision space?

Welcome to the boards. I hope you buy the trilogy. Even if you disagree with some of what is said there you will definitely expand your comprehension of life and realities and the purpose of existing and being. Tom recommends everybody to have an attitude of being open-minded and skeptical and me too. It helped me comprehend a lot of things.

Take care,

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <

I've read some compelling arguments that "free will" is more of an illusion than reality.

Consciousness has no purpose without free will. Are you talking about the experiment that show someone reacting before they get the data?

So, in some circles “free will” is referred to as “the law of confusion”.

The reason for this is that as awareness grows, ones personal Intent at the being level begins to become clear.

So why would “free will” be a metaphor for confusion?

Well, when you are unaware you have choices and the outcome of those choices is unknown. It appears to be random or probability. As you become aware of your intent, the outcome of various choices becomes more apparent. You begin to see beyond the veil of forgetting and directly into the causality that you created upon entering into a particular reality.

You still have free will. You can do what you want. Make whatever choices you want. But you know, as opposed to guessing.

I have a purpose. My intent is to help with the goal of freedom. I want this for myself and all others. :)

According to MBT theory, other similar models and subjective experiences such as NDE's free will is integral to the evolution of consciousness. Determinism suggests that free will is an illusion. The following article explains the reasoning behind said conclusion which interestingly speaks to the (genetic, social, cultural,etc.) environmental effect on the Avatar's pattern of behavior.

Psychology today: Free will is an illusion so what?

The article is summarized as follows: "So, overall, contrary to what one may initially think, realizing that free will is an illusion should lead to greater maturity, compassion, and emotional stability. Hopefully, the ideas in this article serve as the external inputs that steer you in this positive direction."

So, whether you realize that free will is an illusion or subscribe to MBT, either will lead to lower entropy and higher QoC, if you make the "choice" to proceed in that positive direction.

Jdjr --- That is what I am getting. Environment, upbringing, exposure, etc all contribute to the proclivity to make one choice or another. To say we have unfettered "free will" to make any choice within the multitudes of choices is not accurate. Sam Harris explains this with regard to lowering one's entropy. He refers to it as improving our consciousness, but it amounts to the same.

The article I posted previously rings true in many respects because during our fundamental years through adolescence we are heavily influenced by Avatars and our environment. In the formative years, (up to 7) we did not have a choice. This goes to the genetic, cultural, societal, familial, influence and is baked into the DNA.

However, I stop short there because it is more logical to me that free will must be won through personal development and knowledge of SELF. We can lower our entropy by surrendering to the belief that free will is an illusion and or we can, in theory, lower it by surrendering to SELF and as such win our free will and our freedom from bondage to the attachments of this PMR. All roads lead to evolution of consciousness pursuant to the theory.

"In Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion (2014), Harris describes his experience with Dzogchen, a Tibetan Buddhist meditation practice, and recommends it to his readers.[47] He writes that the purpose of spirituality (as he defines it – he concedes that the term's uses are diverse and sometimes indefensible) is to become aware that our sense of self is illusory, and says this realization brings both happiness and insight into the nature of consciousness.[47][49] This process of realization, he argues, is based on experience and is not contingent on faith.[47]" Wikipedia-Sam Harris

MBT and other models draw a distinction between sense of self illusion and a sense of knowing self. The theoretical models tell us that illusion (maya) is the design of the LCS within the rule set.

So our sense of self is illusory. At the same time it is hard fact.

You, me, and the spider in the corner of the closet all view existence through their own personal eyes(how ever many we may have).

We are all All That Is, viewing itself from our own unique perspective.

I suggest that the terms we use are insufficient to describe this quality. I suggest that instead of using the terms “self” and “other” we modify our metaphors and use the terms “self” and “other self”.

At least until we decide to call the Orkin man that is. :)

I also like the term Oneself but then the capitol O becomes an important part as referring to either oneself as in self or Oneself as in All Selves.

What say y’all?