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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:03 am 
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Hello:

I was curious to relate my experiences with what I can find in the internet. One thing I like to do when I am waiting somewhere (e.g. traveling) is to close my eyes and either wait for images to come, create some scenery or a combination of both. Possibilities are endless. I can achieve this usually in less than a minute (seconds). I think this is because I practice/d a lot. I like it. I never thought that I could be such a great artist using this technique, and I am thinking of bringing my art to PMR (if I find the time). I can also use this technique to start a WILD (wake induced lucid dream) or OBE (may be a meaningless distinction, cause it is all information access).

I found this:
Wikipedia wrote:Level 3: Patterns, motion, and color

CEV pattern simulation, note that this can be quite different from real life experience
This level is relatively easily accessible to people who use LSD, and appears to be what most people refer to as colourful visuals. However, it is also accessible to people involved in deep concentration for long periods of time. When lying down at night and closing the eyes, right before sleep the complex motion of these patterns can become directly visible without any great effort thanks to hypnagogic hallucination. The patterns themselves might resemble fractals.
in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination

Notice they mention the "fractals" which I experience and are stated in MBT. So the "normal" world is not really too alien from MBT. You don't need any drugs to "hallucinate" (like some people call it). I think that people that use the concept of hallucination is because they just don't get the nature of reality being Consciousness, information.

Another Wiki link for Mental Images (some theories go in the MBT direction):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_image

I'd like to hear comments about this topic and personal experiences from anybody. I like the topic (it's one of my hobbies :).

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Hi Claudio,
Did you see this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene.

I do this, I see this sort of pattern (the black and white example at above site) by closing my eyes and placing the middle knuckles flat on them, but it isn't morphed like the example. I see also when doing this a diamond outlined in brighter yellowish (everything is like black/yellow) that will change when I move my fingers apart, so that is totally mechanical.

I also see slightly lighter inverted pyramids with the rest of the field slightly darker and making the whole field like pie shaped wedges with no outside pressure put on my eyes. That is kind of my default setting or something. I also get honey comb patterns without trying, and I can make the tips of the inverted triangles move apart a little bit before slamming back together so I'm not sure what that is.

Make sure you read down to the "Electrical Stimulation" and "other" in the above reference, okay?
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Bette

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:48 pm 
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bette wrote:Hi Claudio,
Did you see this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene.

I do this, I see this sort of pattern (the black and white example at above site) by closing my eyes and placing the middle knuckles flat on them, but it isn't morphed like the example. I see also when doing this a diamond outlined in brighter yellowish (everything is like black/yellow) that will change when I move my fingers apart, so that is totally mechanical.

I also see slightly lighter inverted pyramids with the rest of the field slightly darker and making the whole field like pie shaped wedges with no outside pressure put on my eyes. That is kind of my default setting or something. I also get honey comb patterns without trying, and I can make the tips of the inverted triangles move apart a little bit before slamming back together so I'm not sure what that is.

Make sure you read down to the "Electrical Stimulation" and "other" in the above reference, okay?
Love
Bette
Good practicing Bette. You can build more from those patterns! The theories in that Wiki page make me laugh. You don't need any physical stimulation to get mental images, so those don't interest me much. Why trying physical stuff when you can do it without them?


Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Claudio,
Did you find this interesting at all?

Electrical stimulation

Phosphenes have also been created by electrical stimulation of the brain as early as 1929 by neurologist Otfrid Foerster. Brindley and Lewin (1968) inserted a matrix of stimulating electrodes directly into the visual cortex of a 52-year-old blind man, using small pulses of electricity to create phosphenes. These phosphenes were points, spots, and bars of colorless or colored light. [9] Brindley and Rushton (1974) used the phosphenes to create a visual prosthesis, in this case by using the phosphenes to depict Braille spots.

In recent years, researchers have successfully developed experimental brain-computer interfaces or neuroprosthesis that stimulate phosphenes to restore vision to people blinded through accidents. Notable successes include the human experiments by William H. Dobelle and Mark Humayun and animal research by Dick Normann.

Experiments with humans have shown that when the visual cortex is stimulated above the calcarine fissure phosphenes are produced in the lower part of the visual field, and vice versa. [10]
[edit] Other causes

Phosphenes have also been created by intense, changing magnetic fields, such as with transcranial magnetic stimulation These fields can be positioned on different parts of the head to stimulate cells in different parts of the visual system. They also can be induced by alternating currents that entrain neural oscillation as with trancranial alternating-current stimulation.[11] In this case they appear in the peripheral visual field.[11]

Astronauts exposed to radiation in space report seeing phosphenes.[12]



As I like to say, practice, practice, practice.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:16 pm 
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In the lucid dreaming community we refer to this experience as "HI", which stands for hypnagogic (falling asleep) hallucination and hypnopompic (waking up) hallucination. They are great because they mark a transitional stage from wakefulness to sleep, which can be used to enter a lucid dream easily. Which is called WILD as you also refer to.

Unfortunately I have not myself excelled in this method or experience, but it is just a question of practice. When my sleep pattern is normalized again I will try to practice WILD's with WBTB (wake-back-to-bed), which means after ~ 4 hours of sleep one awakes and then tries to WILD, it is much easier in that time frame.

I have though, in the past month experienced vivid HI in some seconds occasionally.

Given one has a great visualization skill, one can actively engage to experience these hallucinations.

Bette: See this from the close-eyed ha.. wiki link:

"CEV is unrelated to the visual noise seen when the retina is physically stimulated. The retina can be made to produce light patterns of visual noise simply by one rubbing their eyes somewhat forcefully in a manner that increases intraocular pressure. Additionally retinal noise can be produced by touching near the rear of the eyeball (for example, if one closes their eyes, looks all the way left, and lightly touches the rightmost part of the eye socket, this produces visual noise in the shape of a circle that appears at the left side of the visual field - a practice that is neither painful nor dangerous). None of these are closed-eye hallucinations."

I see the same triangle/pixel black and white colour when I apply pressure to my eyes, though I have read a thread on a LD forum where everyone wrote what they saw when they did. Some saw colourful swirling stuff. Everyone reading this try to see what happens when you slowly apply pressure to the eye balls.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:28 pm 
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SS:

Thanks a lot for all the info. This field is easier for people to check certain MBT validity for themselves without trying other paranormal stuff. I guess.

Bette: "Claudio,
Did you find this interesting at all?

Electrical stimulation ..."

Not at all. It's like you are asking me if electric shocks are good for depression therapy. Why get physical when you don't have to?

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:36 pm 
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specialis_sapientia wrote:I see the same triangle/pixel black and white colour when I apply pressure to my eyes, though I have read a thread on a LD forum where everyone wrote what they saw when they did. Some saw colourful swirling stuff. Everyone reading this try to see what happens when you slowly apply pressure to the eye balls.
When I apply pressure I always see 3 levels. A black background, some green clouds similar to the 2nd animated gif in my first link and a big number of small blue circles. I can make this circles move faster and change the motion. The green clouds move as well. It is always the same colors unless I start changing them with my intent.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:47 pm 
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I was talking about the potential for the braille tool, and the computer brain interface specifically as related to AI. I still give the physical, when it comes to the brain, lots of attention because it is where I am interested in researching, neuroscience and consciousness, and it is all connected (by the mind in my book), and stuff. I thought it would interest you since it is from what interests you, my bad perhaps.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:55 pm 
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bette wrote:I was talking about the potential for the braille tool, and the computer brain interface specifically as related to AI. I still give the physical, when it comes to the brain, lots of attention because it is where I am interested in researching, neuroscience and consciousness, and it is all connected (by the mind in my book), and stuff. I thought it would interest you since it is from what interests you, my bad perhaps.
Love
Bette
My bad. I didn't pay attention to the brain interface, since it wasn't saying too much anyways. I posted a link in another thread here called something like: "Brain computer interface".

Well, here it is and we already exchanged thoughts about it:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3928&p=12741&hilit= ... ace#p12741

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Okay good, now that we are on the same page don't you find this connection you now realize here especially interesting, as far as connections go?
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:30 pm 
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Hi Soprano,
I like this topic too.Here is my take;I too have WILDS that are often initiated in this way, and like you,I have searched the internet and read many books to try and relate my experiences.This always seems to land at the same conclusion;All visual experience is internally generated because the brain has evolved to makes sense of patterns,and does so only for survival/evolutionary purposes,even in the absence of external stimuli.Other explanations can go the other way and be too New Age or unscientific.

Either way,it is frustrating.I'm sure you know from your WILDs/LDs/OBEs that the pure scientific materialism doesn't cut it.It does well to describe the things that are being talked about on this thread (retinal noise and the like) but fails to recognize any of the "psi" stuff.This is one reason why I like MBT. I think that mainstream science just describes the "virtual body" and it's evolution.MBT is compatable with this and still includes all the "NPMR" experiences that so many have.

I don't usually pay much attention to idioretinal "light" during waking hours,but here is one of my favorite WILDs.

Around 7-8 in the morning I watched scenery form behind my closed eyes.I started to see a dark blue body of choppy water.I stayed patient as the scene became all encompassing.At one moment a couple of drops of water splashed on my face and ran down my glasses.(Was not physically wearing them)I then recognized myself to be afloat on some type of water vehicle that was shaped like a space capsule.It was bobbing up and down with the choppy water, I vividly felt the motion.As I looked around I took in a beautiful skyscrapper filled skyline along the water in the distance.There was a nice sunrise type of sky.

Then I floated up and something seemed to steer me around as if I was on a tour.I just submitted to this guiding force as I was directed toward another shore that had been "behind" me.I went over brick buildings and houses eventually landing on a populated street.I then started to rub my hands together to maintain awareness and stay "solid".(I always do this through out but it doesn't always work)I wandered through a loading bay,there were people putting boxes in the back of a semi truck with shirts that said "Peace" ?? I went out the otherside and tried to decide what to do/ask as I didn't have a plan this time(ask to a person or the pervading awareness)Then,unfortunately,I felt everything start to phase out.I started spinning like a top to maintain/go "somewhere" else,but it was too late and I woke.

I just can't accept that all the detail of the landscapes and places I "see" sometimes can be only just the result of electro-chemical reactions during sleep.....

PS Check out my Binocular Rivalry post and comment if you like.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:37 pm 
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bette wrote:Okay good, now that we are on the same page don't you find this connection you now realize here especially interesting, as far as connections go?
Love
Bette
It can be a connection, but not a necessary one. The mental visualization does not need any physical interface. Normal vision is also a physical interface. You can play with visualization with no interfaces. That's why I see the visualization and the brain computer interface as two separate topics, and we already have 2 threads (one for each).

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Jeff wrote:I just can't accept that all the detail of the landscapes and places I "see" sometimes can be only just the result of electro-chemical reactions during sleep.....

PS Check out my Binocular Rivalry post and comment if you like.
Hi Jeff:

Nice to meet you. Your experience is very interesting. I can't accept that either. The dynamics of the imagery is too fantastic to be done by some chemical reaction. Actually I think there are 2 components in general: 1. Our own creations, 2. The hook to other data streams (that could include other beings as well). And from 1. and 2. you can end up jumping to other realities. Sometimes I have trouble distinguishing my creations from "other's", but it makes sense in the MBT model, since all consciousness are connected in the RWW, and actually that is the only explanation I can find so far.

Now to add to this thread I found this link in Lucid Wiki (lucid.wikia.com) about HIT (hypnagogic Imagery Technique):

http://lucid.wikia.com/wiki/Hypnagogic_ ... _Technique

a similar description (actually looks more comprehensive and better overall) from Dream Views: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/sho ... hp?t=13497

Hit the HIT!

Claudio

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:38 am 
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Jeff and Claudio,

"The dynamics of the imagery is too fantastic to be done by some chemical reaction."

Keep in mind that it is not just a matter of a chemical reaction. There is a whole digital logic and memory complex attached and active in the production of these hallucinations and chimeras. This is so whether you are basing the discussion on the PMR model of eyes, optic nerves and brain visual centers or on a the Consciousness Space model of an IUOC experiencing a VR experience here in PMR.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:12 am 
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Hi Soprano,
Wikipedia wrote:
Level 3: Patterns, motion, and color

CEV pattern simulation, note that this can be quite different from real life experience
This level is relatively easily accessible to people who use LSD, and appears to be what most people refer to as colourful visuals. However, it is also accessible to people involved in deep concentration for long periods of time. When lying down at night and closing the eyes, right before sleep the complex motion of these patterns can become directly visible without any great effort thanks to hypnagogic hallucination. The patterns themselves might resemble fractals.
Its interesting, the animated image in wikipedia, is nearly exactly what i see when i close my eyes, even the colors (darkness and a deep purple color), after relaxing few seconds. The next level is for me always falling asleep . I am obviously missing someting between :)
Image


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