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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Claudio,

Don't be absolutely sure that you know what Tom thinks about the value of having you around. He will never give up on hoping that you will be the contributor that you think that you are. He was not well pleased that you have in fact literally driven another member away from the board. And from the comments that come to me, you and Brandon are on the verge of doing that to several more with your contentiousness and noisy domination of the board. He has not directed me to allow you here no matter what. That decision remains in my hands, no matter what you think about it. You might rethink what you consider to be my insults to you as perhaps more justified things that you simply cannot admit about yourself and your behavior. The Georgia mule treatment is not the best choice in the world, but it is about the only thing that you will pay attention to. In case the reference is obscure to you, it refers to a 2X4 board applied to the side of the head. Georgia mules are notoriously stubborn and hard to get their attention when they are being at their worst.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:11 am 
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Ted. Is one of your main goals in this life to attack and denigrate Brandon, me and whoever else you feel jealous about? There is no domination of Brandon, me or anybody else, may be except of you. It is your fear, that influences the reality you create and project.

Claudio

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"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:13 am 
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Claudio, I am really appreciating the direction you are taking in the tone of your posting, and I am feeling your personal power on the heart level.

Below is not directed at you personally, just my OMSing for the record and for your feedback

FWAUs in this PMR are directed and constrained by their meme (theory or value system working its way through society in a Darwinian survival of the fittest manner) firmware (among other things)

Meme's create around "themselves" ecologies to support the meme, refine it and build its capacity to penetrate into society

For a meme to reach a tipping point of lower entropy such that it becomes something more powerful than a forgotten book in remainderland (unsuccessful books get remaindered at discount), it must create an ecology of supportive FWAUs that are capable organizing themselves into a hierarchical structure.

Hierarchies are not democratic, they are pyramids of authority, with each element giving obedience to leadership, and each element simultaneously leading in their assigned areas of authority and engaging in peer review and constructive feedback in all directions of the organization.

Loose associations of unconstrained individualistic self-absorbed egos (virtually all online discussion forums) are completely ineffective at "doing work", as Tom says.

Learning how to do this (organize into a hierarchy) and developing the capacity to accept authority is more important than defending our personal perception of truth. Our personal perception of the flaws of leadership are less important than the task of organizing into an efficient team.

When the boss says jump, the correct response is "how high.... sorry.... I will try harder". It is not our role to question the motivations or intelligence or empathy of the boss, most certainly not in plenary.

Again, I propose to all who accept Tom's meme to please accept this constraint that Tom has imposed on the forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:57 am 
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kroeran wrote:Learning how to do this (organize into a hierarchy) and developing the capacity to accept authority is more important than defending our personal perception of truth. Our personal perception of the flaws of leadership are less important than the task of organizing into an efficient team.
Well, Randy. I definitely disagree with you. What are the real constraints? Nobody has to stay in this board. All of us come here and post thanks to the free will provided to us by AUM. You can choose to leave the USA and move to Cuba, Iran or China to keep learning how to accept authority. Nobody is forcing you to stay in the USA.

Would you vote for a president that insults and denigrates but punishes you when you do the same?

There is no need to govern using fear as a resource. Some administrators manipulate others through fear. It is because of people that don't think like you do that some countries like Argentina were able to get out of a military dictatorship that was governing by fear manipulation. My brother was almost killed by those people, and I went with my brother risking our lives to oppose to what I thought was right. Because my brother wasn't afraid he testified against the evil person that tortured him, saying every night he was going to die the next day, keeping him not able to see but listening the tortures around, raped pregnant women, and women in front of their kids and tortured and killed people, laughing and drinking when doing that. This evil person is now in jail, because of people like my brother that are not afraid of doing what they think it is right.

Compare the number of dictatorships and democracy in the world right now. Which way do you think we are evolving to?

The less this board is governed by fear the more is its potential to evolve.

I think you show fear too. You are afraid to give an opinion about Ted. Or is it OK for you that he can do whatever he feels like and insult whenever he feels like and whoever he feels like? And, why? Because they don't think like him or like MBT?

If you don't give an opinion about Ted it may mean that either you are afraid to do so or that you accept and justify whatever he does.

Am I wrong?

Claudio

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"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:24 am 
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I am thankful to Tom as he gave me and others for the first time ever a scientific and comprehensive explanation of All That Is.
Also thankful to Ted as he with unbelievable energy and consistency supports and answers questions and gives advices in this forum.

As one of the many silent readers here, i do not like how the forum is converting into one single thread about the details of a (from my perspective) technical issue.
Not in the current form how the discussion is driven.

Additionally, Claudio says that he is doing his "research" in the best interest of Tom and MBT and on the other side he is attacking Ted and supporting persons like Brandon who directly is offending Tom and this now several times !

And that happens inside of the MBT forum !!!

Tom (and Ted), how long are you going to tolerate such a behaviour ? I think it is not in the best interest of MBT and his forum. There is enormous danger that many interested people will be confused when reading this and simply be dis-attracted from MBT, because they will believe that with some simple confusing statements from persons like Brandon and also Claudio, MBT is disproved !!


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:50 am 
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Alifo wrote:Additionally, Claudio says that he is doing his "research" in the best interest of Tom and MBT and on the other side he is attacking Ted and supporting persons like Brandon who directly is offending Tom and this now several times !

And that happens inside of the MBT forum !!!!
Hi Alper:

Show me where I am attacking Ted. I am just showing what he does, he is the one constantly attacking and insulting Brandon and me. I don't support Brandon when he offends anybody. I don't support Ted when he offends anybody.

I don't support anybody that acts in a negative way. Don't you see that Ted's attacks and Bette's attacks to Brandon have a lot to do with the way Brandon acts, and also to what I post?
You could view things from a bigger perspective.

I don't expect you to think like me. Beings are beings with their imperfections. You think it's right to attack Brandon, just because he doesn't act perfectly?
I don't think so. At least he's capable of apologizing.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:03 am 
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soprano wrote:
Alifo wrote:Additionally, Claudio says that he is doing his "research" in the best interest of Tom and MBT and on the other side he is attacking Ted and supporting persons like Brandon who directly is offending Tom and this now several times !

And that happens inside of the MBT forum !!!!
Hi Alper:

Show me where I am attacking Ted. I am just showing what he does, he is the one constantly attacking and insulting Brandon and me. I don't support Brandon when he offends anybody. I don't support Ted when he offends anybody.

I don't support anybody that acts in a negative way. Don't you see that Ted's attacks and Bette's attacks to Brandon have a lot to do with the way Brandon acts, and also to what I post?
You could view things from a bigger perspective.

I don't expect you to think like me. Beings are beings with their imperfections. You think it's right to attack Brandon, just because he doesn't act perfectly?
I don't think so. At least he's capable of apologizing.

Claudio
If i have to show you where you have attacked Ted and where Brandon did attack Tom, then this means you even do not know what you have written or read.


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:06 am 
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Alper:

I know Brandon talked about Tom and Ted.

Show me where I attacked Ted or Tom with unjustified insults in the last week.

Claudio

_________________
"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:09 am 
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soprano wrote:
kroeran wrote:Learning how to do this (organize into a hierarchy) and developing the capacity to accept authority is more important than defending our personal perception of truth. Our personal perception of the flaws of leadership are less important than the task of organizing into an efficient team.
Well, Randy. I definitely disagree with you. What are the real constraints? Nobody has to stay in this board. All of us come here and post thanks to the free will provided to us by AUM. You can choose to leave the USA and move to Cuba, Iran or China to keep learning how to accept authority. Nobody is forcing you to stay in the USA.

Would you vote for a president that insults and denigrates but punishes you when you do the same?

There is no need to govern using fear as a resource. Some administrators manipulate others through fear. It is because of people that don't think like you do that some countries like Argentina were able to get out of a military dictatorship that was governing by fear manipulation. My brother was almost killed by those people, and I went with my brother risking our lives to oppose to what I thought was right. Because my brother wasn't afraid he testified against the evil person that tortured him, saying every night he was going to die the next day, keeping him not able to see but listening the tortures around, raped pregnant women, and women in front of their kids and tortured and killed people, laughing and drinking when doing that. This evil person is now in jail, because of people like my brother that are not afraid of doing what they think it is right.

Compare the number of dictatorships and democracy in the world right now. Which way do you think we are evolving to?

The less this board is governed by fear the more is its potential to evolve.

I think you show fear too. You are afraid to give an opinion about Ted. Or is it OK for you that he can do whatever he feels like and insult whenever he feels like and whoever he feels like? And, why? Because they don't think like him or like MBT?

If you don't give an opinion about Ted it may mean that either you are afraid to do so or that you accept and justify whatever he does.

Am I wrong?

Claudio
Excellent points and learning more about your background tells me that you have already been educated by the system regarding the fuller array and potential of PMR stress-tests and have this advantage over us who have led more protected/less challenging lives. Great data and I tip my hat in sincere awe to your brother. I have read about such things and have had friends involved with Amnesty International who have brought me in the loop so to speak.

On some level, I carry in my heart, the knowledge that at any time of the day, somewhere in the world (right at this moment actually), someone is being physically tortured for their political beliefs and activities, and I try to use this datapoint to inform my attitude to my apparent stresses.

One of the constraints on City Data forum is that you are not permitted to discuss moderators or the quality of moderation - I like that rule...otherwise we get this sort of conversation which undermines order and efficiency.

I guess you have a point about Ted...maybe we should dock his salary by 1% every time he offends a poster....oh wait...he doesn't get a salary. He shows up here to work day after day, month after month, year after year...how many years now?...and toils dealing with the same endless revolving door of egoic BS - wouldn't you get cranky? Lets talk in 20 years after you have taken over and operated under the ruleset.

It looks to me that this endless cycle of me me me nitpicking by about half of the established posters has worn out Tom, his family and the rest of the MBTOE organization, and I am getting not far from that myself. They have left Ted at the back gate alone to manage the rabble.

Do you think Tom is the sort of guy to be disloyal to such devotion, irrespective of his or anyone's assessment of his so called technical performance?

His apparent grouchiness doesn't actually bother me. It lines up with the classical "old monk vs novice" relationships of the Desert Fathers or Zen and performs the function of illuminating our egos. My radar detects loving intent.

But that's neither here nor there. We are not here Argentina 1980. We are trying to organize ourselves under the loving intention of what appears to be a great man. Get onside and support the leader (Tom). Trust Tom's judgement of Ted. Ted is not your "file", he is Tom's file.

You have been assigned the Physics file. Work it and leave Ted alone. He who exhibits competence in a small thing, will be given a larger thing down the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:19 am 
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kroeran wrote:His apparent grouchiness doesn't actually bother me. It lines up with the classical "old monk vs novice" relationships of the Desert Fathers or Zen and performs the function of illuminating our egos. My radar detects loving intent.

But that's neither here nor there. We are not here Argentina 1980. We are trying to organize ourselves under the loving intention of what appears to be a great man. Get onside and support the leader (Tom). Trust Tom's judgement of Ted. Ted is not your "file", he is Tom's file.

You have been assigned the Physics file. Work it and leave Ted alone. He who exhibits competence in a small thing, will be given a larger thing down the road.
Hello Randy:

Ted's behavior may not affect you because you don't see it directed to you and you don't feel like me that those actions are unfair or unjustified. Read all attacks and insults of him towards Brandon and me and cheat your mind that those are directed to you and tell me if you won't feel a bit different.

I support Ted as administrator. I just would like him to stop insulting and denigrating people, period.
kroeran wrote:You have been assigned the Physics file. Work it and leave Ted alone. He who exhibits competence in a small thing, will be given a larger thing down the road.
Can't you see that is not me that does not leave Ted alone but rather Ted that does not leave Brandon and me alone? Read that thread again and try to be objective.

Thanks for your feedback Randy and good ego handling! ;)

Claudio

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"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:28 am 
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if you look at my initial interactions with Ted when I first got here we had the same dynamic you are experiencing

once I realised he was the official moderator, I accepted his authority, I try best I can to respond to gentle nudges, and so far it is working.

If you don't respond to gentle nudges you are going to attract harsher messaging.

Its like rider and horse - an obediant horse responds to subtle gestures and anticipates the rider's needs

a horse unbroken attracts what appears to be harsh treatment, but if done properly, is for the horses benefit, and what lies beyond is the glory and thrill of the racetrack - otherwise it will be the glue factory

lock up your ego for a week, kiss the ring, and see what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:55 am 
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Hi Randy:

In my initial interactions I was treated well by Ted. When I started giving more opinions about the model and participating more actively and showing my experience with information systems and probabilities, things started to change.

In the past I also posted to other people that were attacking Ted in a similar way that now it happens to Brandon. I don't take it personally. I don't approve people insulting for no reason. I pointed that to Brandon also several times, but people see what they want to see.

Claudio

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"Every moment can be as good as you want it to be."
"Experience is the ultimate teacher."

> http://soprano.com <


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Claudio, You said "but people see what they want to see" , I think that alot of Teds words are not meant to be how they seem to Brandon and Yourself. I see how Ted hasn't been the most polite, I have even seen where he does throw some "insults" in but I think alot of it might be Teds direct writing style, and the fact that he uses differen't mannerisms than and/or Brandon are used too. Alot of the times Brandon comes off as a big troll on here, other times he is a very good contributer and has actually even helped me with a couple things, when he acts like a troll, it seems like Ted will either try to explain to him where MBT is coming from or give him the same type of energy that he had brought to the table at that time. Now after this happens a couple times and Brandon just won't listen(doesn't have interest to fully understand MBT so that he can better cummunicate himself on here), I can understand where Ted is coming from. This doesn't justify the words Ted uses at times, but what do you expect to happen?


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:36 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg


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 Post subject: Re: Spoon Bending
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:08 pm 
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soprano wrote:Hi Randy:

In my initial interactions I was treated well by Ted. When I started giving more opinions about the model and participating more actively and showing my experience with information systems and probabilities, things started to change.

In the past I also posted to other people that were attacking Ted in a similar way that now it happens to Brandon. I don't take it personally. I don't approve people insulting for no reason. I pointed that to Brandon also several times, but people see what they want to see.

Claudio
I am not saying that this is what is going on, however, taking your point of view

the novice (in the monastic sense) who outgrows his teacher does not throw his teacher in the river

the novice who has translated head knowledge into heart wisdom, stays and honors his teacher until the system picks the time of transition

after Ted, you are the only one around here who demonstrates the technical potential and intensity of interest to defend MBTOE - you need to quickly catch up on teamwork and soft skills or there is going to be a problem

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