Relationships

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Ted Vollers
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Re: Relationships

Post by Ted Vollers »

Shinoki,

I believe I remember Tom saying something like that. The basic idea being that the reality originates in Mind Space and feeds into PMR as a VR. You have genetics from your parents, mixed randomly, and you have other factors from NPMR. The apparent results are what appears in your rendering and experience, controlled by the PMR rule set expressing your unfolding experience. The genetics as expressed in your DNA is a feedback that occurs if that level of fractal PMR reality is forced to be collapsed from potential by observation at that level. You don't get DNA and thus a body. You get a body and experience in PMR and then get the matching DNA if someone looks. The rule set of PMR and the probability projection plus free will choices are the controlling factors.

There has been cross cultural research done, by more than one experimenter, on whether there was an objective or universal ideal of beauty. I cannot give you a reference however. Discover magazine had an article some years ago. There were things found such as facial symmetry corresponding to judgment of beauty. The broader and rounder hips of young women versus narrower and straighter hips of young men were more popular, presumed related to indicators of reproductive fitness. And then there was the linking of rounded shapes in general, between women's breasts and buttocks, being somehow hard wired into men's psyches. There was more than one composite picture of idealized beauty for a woman, possibly also for a man too, produced by different researchers based on computer generated side by side comparison testing of different features and conformations. What they ended up with was not exotic or extreme to my eye, but not like the girl next door either unless your neighbors had a very broad and mixed family background and were unusually good looking to boot.

The deck is stacked against you. There is a ring somewhere all fitted for your nose with a chain just made for some young ladies hand. All wired in. Relax and enjoy it while you can. Eventually men and women get to look like each other if they live long enough. It is a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind any more, it doesn't matter.

Ted
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Re: Relationships

Post by quamta »

Let's suppose that someone has trouble when it comes to being able to start relationships with females he likes. Not being even able to kiss someone he likes or have a relationship (either short or long) with someone he feels attracted to, since chances to do so don't come up. As the years go by, what initially was something like "it's just a matter of time before I find her", seems to turn more and more into a deeper sensation of despair and hopelessness. He didn't feel attracted to any of the females he could have gone out with, since they weren't nearly similar to what he desired, so he decided that it's better to stay alone than going out, kissing or having sex with someone he dislikes and/or doesn't plenty feel attracted to physically (not just sexually, but also physically, i.e. with the sort of beauty that makes him feel something deep and feel alive), and so he rejects any kind of love relationship or physical contact with them. That is, he feels that it's better to stay alone than reluctantly settling for a physical contact and/or relationship with someone whose main "appeal" is "I am having a relationship with this person only because I haven't had the chance to be with someone I really like; if I had had such a chance I would never have chosen her and would have chosen the other (the one more similar to what he likes) instead hands down". That way, he decides to avoid such kind of relationships and wait and see what happens, with the knowledge that no matter how frustrating and painful being alone is, it surely is better than reluctantly accepting relationships with females he dislikes.

Somehow, the years have gone by and, as he gets older, the chance to kiss or go out with a female with the features he feels attracted to hasn't arrived. He keeps wondering how come things have gotten so screwed up as to be condemned to a life of love loneliness and becoming such a weirdo, while representing such a unusual case of "love bad luck" (or however you want to label it). What would be the most rational explanation for such a situation? The hypotheses that come to my mind are the following (which is/are the most likely one(s)?, if at all):

1. The larger reality is setting things up in such a way as to making it impossible for him to find such relationship with someone he likes and feels attracted to. He has set things up before he was born in PMR this way so that he could feel frustrated beyond description in order to force him to develop other fields of understanding that he couldn't have developed if he had found the happiness (and ergo the lack of frustration and spare time) of a relationship and/or physical contact with a female that suited his tastes. That is, no matter how hard he tries to find her or how hard he tries to let go his needs to find her, the larger reality has simply blocked access to such event and whatever he does it will end up the same way: unable to find her.

2. He has just had plain PMR bad luck. Period.

3. He desires to feel a very deep degree of physical attraction and love, while the vast majority of people settles for much less and, therefore, the only difference between his situation and most people's is not bad luck or a NPMR set-up, but just the extent to what he desires to feel fulfilled when it comes to relationships; i.e.: most people would have accepted the degree of dislike he felt for the females he rejected, even if they didn't feel plenty attracted to them and even if there were other females they liked much more, while he refuses to have a relationship with females he knows he won't be able to love, like or feel attracted to as much as the ones that he would really like to go out with. Thus, there is nothing weird in his situation beyond the fact that he is not able to go out with someone he dislikes, while most people can accept it and do it.

4. His despair and negativity is collapsing the "wave function" so to speak in such a way as to making it impossible to find what he desires. Thus, if he is able to stop the negativity loop, no matter how hard or unlikely it seems to find what he desires, he will "collapse" a reality (that is, spawn and move into a new "dimension") in which he finds it.

These questions will probably look quite dumb for most people, but I have been exceedingly unable to find an answer to them.
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Re: Relationships

Post by Ted Vollers »

Quamta,

The rubber band is wound too tight. When I flew balsa stick planes as a child, I always wanted it to fly farther and higher, so I would wind up the rubber band driving the propeller until it made knots as it started a second twist. I would even go further than this in trying to wind tighter and fly higher. Unfortunately, if the rubber band didn't simply break, it would bind with a knot wedged against the frame stick and fail to unwind to power the propeller. Does this analogy ring a bell? Is your rubber band wound too tight?

You don't know any young women, desirable or otherwise. You only know fellow participants in the PMR VR taking those roles, just as you are taking a role therein. This realization will make you a little weird in one way but less weird in another. It is impossible to be so tightly wound internally and hesitant in social circumstances and it not be noticed. This may well introduce hesitance on the other side to the extent of 'what's with this guy? Do I want to be alone in a closed space with him?' The nicest guy in the world with his motor wound too tight is likely to be alone, judged potentially dangerous. This presumes that you don't seek the appearance of danger, a thrill, from being on or over the edge. This makes you going against the tide in American youth culture as I read it if you don't seek such thrills. The pendulum will swing.

I suggest a rethinking and relaxation. "Unwind." A change of environment to a neutral social context rather than a dating/sexual context. Anything from book clubs (discuss MBT) to dog training groups to learning/teaching about computers to politics. Service volunteering; join the Red Cross and prepare to help in the next disaster. Take care of someone. Train as a medical assistant to help those in a nursing home or senior center. Nothing will show you what is more important in reality than experiencing first hand what is not. Something/anything that you have a serious, not contrived, interest and belief in. Even people in unisex groups have sisters they might want you to meet if they get a good impression. You will have to devote time to this approach, but it will be inherently less frustrating as you are participating for a real reason and value, not just hoping to hook up with the opposite sex and hoping for more than one night.

I apologize that I cannot give more interesting and desirable suggestions. I never really participated in the 'dating game'.

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Re: Relationships

Post by twcjr »

Quamta,

I agree with Ted. Unwind. Relax. Be sociable. Interact with people, make acquaintances and friends with all sorts of people of both sexes just for the delight and experience of interacting with them and learning how to be with more quality and less entropy. Have no concern for romantic connections, with the opposite sex -- Attractive or unattractive (in a girl-boy romance sense) should be irrelevant -- just interact naturally as one quality human being with another. If romance is in the cards it will develop all by itself if you let it and don't try to manipulate (run to it or away from it). The more you try to look for it, push it, find it, go after it, or avoid it the less likely you are to find it.

Enjoy people just for who they are and for what they bring to the table in accomplishing whatever activity you are interested in. Very important: get to know them. Even more important: let them know you -- turn your analyzing, judging, planning the next move intellect off and just be. Accept whatever happens, however these relationships go or don't go -- be open to all and to anything that seems positive without judging or analyzing, or projecting where you think it is going or where you want it to go. Be honest and straightforward. Be yourself. No games. No pretenses. No expectations. No hopes, no fears. Just be and enjoy sharing yourself with others in some common pursuit.

Spend more time with those you like (as people) and less time with those you don't. Eventually after enough activities you will have a circle of friends you like to interact with - always be open to adding to that circle whenever possible. Enjoy life. Learn from other people. Consider everyone (those you like and especially those you don't) your teacher and try to rise to their challenges with right intent.

Interact in each relationship with the attitude that it (the interaction, the process, and the outcome) is not about you -- it is about them or about the activity you are involved in (what you can give to each). All outcomes are accepted with grace and good will.

This is an effective approach to life as well as to relationships.

Tom
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Re: Relationships

Post by bette »

You are very wise Tom, as always.

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Re: Relationships

Post by quamta »

Ted,

I'm quite obstuse when it comes to understanding analogies, but I think I get your point: trying too hard to get something hinders the process of getting it. Sort of like the old saying "get what you want by letting go your need to get it". Did you mean that? I, the ever skeptic, am not too sure about things working that way, but, if it works, it would be worth giving it a try. Of course, getting into that positive thinking state of letting go of your needs while you still pursue them without getting frustrated and letting go all fear of failure is very tricky.

Tom,

being more sociable would be the opposite of what I have been doing: being less and less sociable. Of course, now you could say "there you have it, you are moving in the wrong direction and that's why you don't get the results you want". But being sociable has some clear disadvantages that make me feel badly (as compared to isolating myself): given the fact that my viewpoints about almost everything are very seldomly understood or shared, given that most people is a reflection of certain cultural dogmas I dislike, given their adherence to their points of view, as well as their groupal (them with the power of the herd versus me with the powerlessness of being on my own) antagonism towards mine, which they maintain no matter how hard I try to explain my viewpoint, etc. I have reached a point where socializing hurts me most of the time, given how misunderstood it makes me feel; it's paradoxical but when I'm interacting with others (specially if there are many of them - I must stress this because when it's me on my own with someone else on his/her own interacting is much easier for me) I feel way more lonely than when I am on my own at home doing things I like such as browsing the internet, reading books and all that. Just like it usually happens, my incompatibilities with most people tend to grow bigger and bigger as time goes by. The only way not to feel too bad socializing would be that of NOT being myself, in order to dodge conversations that stress the topics in which I am most likely to be poorly understood... or I could speak about the topic role-playing a different personaly in order to avoid them realizing what I truly think, but I don't think this would be a good idea, since I am not a good actor, nor can I feel at ease behaving that way. But being myself would be exposing myself to conflict due to misunderstanding most of the time, which would result in negative feelings as I realized how poorly understood and compatible I am. To give you an extreme analogy: imagine a woman in a social context where women's rights are oppresed by most men trying to socialize with a group of men and feeling sympathy towards them, while focusing on their interests, would that be a down-to-earth, or even desirable, situation?

On the other hand, I cannot help wondering how the interaction without relevance to attractive/not-attractive might have good results. I mean, if one interacts without blocking love relationships with those whose features one doesn't like, that can very easily lead one to falling into the trap of ending up in an undesirable relationship motivated either by sexual needs (I must stress that sexual attraction and physical attraction don't necessarily go hand in hand, since one can feel sexually attracted out of pure necessity towards someone whose physique one doesn't like nor feels at ease with) and/or by affection flavoured with friendship. That is, if an interaction begins to move from just friendship towards something else and one doesn't block it and just lets go, it's very easy to end up having physical contact with someone that doesn't make you happy. Our society, where most people seem to be having a relationship with someone conceding - more or less explicitly - that, if they could gain access to other people they like more but feel inaccessible they would leave their current partner, is full of examples of things ending up like that: the way to live an unhappy life settling for not being able to do what one always wanted to do.

In any case, yes, it would most likely "work". That is, if one opens up to such relationships without blocking affection and/or sexual impulses, it wouldn't probably take long before, without even trying, one found himself in a relationship with a female. If you judge "success" from that point of view, it cannot be denied that such approach probably works wonders. But the thing is that wouldn't be success, but "failure". "Success" would be getting such a relationship with someone who has the features one likes, and not with someone who doesn't have them and therefore makes one unhappy. Most people would probably have a different point of view (they can know better about their lives than I can, since they are the ones behind their consciousness), but it's precisely such personal and subjective nature of what is "good" that can support my point of view that, no matter how others feel, I wouldn't be happy ending up with such a kind of "love" relationship. This is kind of like the frequent dichotomy about "alone" versus "in bad company". So, what can be done? Well, perhaps, when all is said and done, in absence of a means to scan the entire world population in seek of a person with the features one likes, all that can be done is such choice between "loneliness" and "settling for someone whose love company is not as bad as loneliness".

Now you are probably thinking that I am overanalyzing and overintellectualizing and that that is a mistake. However, the boundary between not analyzing enough and overanalyzing is very diffuse and blurred as I see it. Nor can I see how, when or why one should consider giving up a logical approach and jumping on the wagon of "letting go whatever it is", if that goes against one's interests and against what one seeks and wishes.


Ted & Tom,

I am always very grateful for your replies. Sometimes they get no reply on my part not because I don't throughly read and try to understand them but because given how long it would take to write a rational reply I end up putting it up forever. In any case, I apologize if I am being too critic when it comes to replying, but this is the best I can do in order to be able to convey into words what I feel inside of me so to speak. I cannot just tell you "yes, I will follow your advice" if then, deep inside, I am not truly convinced. I would definitely like to thank you for your always good intent when it comes to answering my questions. Again, apologies for my ongoing trying to rebut the points you make.
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Re: Relationships

Post by TobyH »

quantma,

I'm horrid when it comes to solid relationships with girls. Even now. But I have a large circle of friends just from me being very open to all kinds of people. I have alot of females that respect me, and I am very greatful for that. But there's a HUGE cultural disconnect you gotta work through. I have learned that it is very hard to compete with alot of males out there, because the majority of females have a false sense of what qualifies a "good" relationship. Most people do not have good vision of their futures. They're more willing to satisify their immediate needs and desires for long term pain, and it's cummulitive. Alot of females would rather go for guys who act a part, while guys who actually ARE the real deal, get put on the backburner. This is just how things usually work for the masses in western culture.

Looking back, the times where most girls actually wanted me, were the times I just didn't care at all. Then when I start to get a burning need to go after a girl, I get ignored. So Tom is pretty right.

There's ALOT of game playing out there. Avoid that. Be different no matter what it takes, because it will eventually pay off when you least expect it. Just keep your focus on bettering yourself no matter how rejected you feel. It's a jungle out there. Don't get frusterated that you're not part of the steamrolling process. Set yourself apart and you will see results if you're open enough. It's a pretty quick way of learning some solid lessons.

"This is a war universe. War all the time. That is its nature. There may be other universes based on all sorts of other principles, but ours seems to be based on war and games." - Burroughs, William S.
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Re: Relationships

Post by bette »

Possibly a solution is rather than going the removing the need, or letting go of the desire for a mate way to allow actually hooking up to occur one instead focuses on preparing themselves to be the best mate they could be. Since looks seems so significant that would be one area we singles could focus, some of us past the point of youthful good looks could perhaps focus on smiling more, or being more positive when out and about. I would like to attract someone that appreciates a positive person so being positive would be good preparation. Perhaps being giving and charitable is something you would like in your other, so then you would be more giving and charitable yourself putting yourself out there (with others) doing so. Being kind, being patient, being gentle, being intelligent, being open minded, these are traits I would be attracted to so I must be that to attract that. Being yourself when you are not average in public is hard to do, but it will allow someone that is attracted to you to notice you. I am noticeable because I'm not average and willing to engage strangers in conversation. Hopefully being one's self in public isn't repulsive or rude, unless that is what one wants to attract, for example. Of course I say all this from the safety of my computer screen not preferring to put myself out there either. I do know that although I am extremely cute, it is all on the inside and not on public display. I talk to people, men, say in line at the store that seem nice. Then I try and let it go rather than desperately figuring out what to do next. The way I look at it is that if I am suppose to hook up with someone we will meet again, and again, so I don't stress it. One time I actually took the initiative to ask a very nice man (he was very nice to my son) at Disneyland if he was married because I found him so nice. He was, but was flattered. That took a huge bit of courage, but I am glad I did it as it showed I could.

My point is it might be time better spent becoming the person that the person you are looking for could love. Lowing expectations isn't an option, raising yourself to the challenge is. When we who are single who have an opening (desire) for an other resonate what we are looking for, it will attract to us. That my story anyway. I really am not so sure I am looking for an other because as I have written elsewhere I can barely stand myself and couldn't imagine a person who could stand me as I am existing. I mean I'm loving but that's about it. I'm lazy, messy, judgemental, bad with money, let my children run my life, and other stuff, besides all my cute being on the inside. Other than the cute being on the inside (I actually prefer someone with unique looks rather than being all symmetrical) all the things I am are not what I want in an other, so I am not ready. Are you who are looking ready? What do you have to offer?

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Re: Relationships

Post by Ted Vollers »

Quamta,

Follows the text of your post from above with my comments in {} and with underlines.

I'm quite obstuse when it comes to understanding analogies, but I think I get your point: trying too hard to get something hinders the process of getting it. Sort of like the old saying "get what you want by letting go your need to get it". Did you mean that? {Yes} I, the ever skeptic, am not too sure about things working that way {It can, but nothing is certain.}, but, if it works, it would be worth giving it a try. Of course, getting into that positive thinking state of letting go of your needs while you still pursue them without getting frustrated and letting go all fear of failure is very tricky. {It won't work if you think of it in terms of a trick to get what you want.}

Tom,

being more sociable would be the opposite of what I have been doing: being less and less sociable. Of course, now you could say "there you have it, you are moving in the wrong direction and that's why you don't get the results you want". But being sociable has some clear disadvantages that make me feel badly (as compared to isolating myself): given the fact that my viewpoints about almost everything are very seldomly understood or shared, given that most people is a reflection of certain cultural dogmas I dislike, given their adherence to their points of view, as well as their groupal (them with the power of the herd versus me with the powerlessness of being on my own) antagonism towards mine, which they maintain no matter how hard I try to explain my viewpoint, etc. {You have not explained what these attitudes are nor am I asking you to do so. Part of my suggestion, not explicitly stated, was that you find groups to interact with that are aligned with your attitudes. Group think is a well known problem. Most of my life I have kept my mouth shut about what I really thought and believed for this reason. Based on what I have said here and on my web site, do you think that the general public would think I was mainstream in my attitudes? Or even rational?} I have reached a point where socializing hurts me most of the time, given how misunderstood it makes me feel; it's paradoxical but when I'm interacting with others (specially if there are many of them - I must stress this because when it's me on my own with someone else on his/her own interacting is much easier for me) I feel way more lonely than when I am on my own at home doing things I like such as browsing the internet, reading books and all that. Just like it usually happens, my incompatibilities with most people tend to grow bigger and bigger as time goes by. The only way not to feel too bad socializing would be that of NOT being myself, in order to dodge conversations that stress the topics in which I am most likely to be poorly understood... or I could speak about the topic role-playing a different personaly in order to avoid them realizing what I truly think, but I don't think this would be a good idea, since I am not a good actor, nor can I feel at ease behaving that way. But being myself would be exposing myself to conflict due to misunderstanding most of the time, which would result in negative feelings as I realized how poorly understood and compatible I am. To give you an extreme analogy: imagine a woman in a social context where women's rights are oppresed by most men trying to socialize with a group of men and feeling sympathy towards them, while focusing on their interests, would that be a down-to-earth, or even desirable, situation? {Before I really learned the concepts, I reached the point that I knew that I existed within my mind, not out there. Unless you are part of the herd, you simply must not run with the herd. There is no way to make it work without the pain and stress you describe. It does not matter what your social difference is, you must find a like minded sub society in order to 'be yourself' without this stress. What you believe is part of your Absolute Free Will. But that doesn't mean everyone else will or can agree or interact civilly. Incivility runs rampant within our contemporary society.}

On the other hand, I cannot help wondering how the interaction without relevance to attractive/not-attractive might have good results. I mean, if one interacts without blocking love relationships with those whose features one doesn't like, that can very easily lead one to falling into the trap of ending up in an undesirable relationship motivated either by sexual needs (I must stress that sexual attraction and physical attraction don't necessarily go hand in hand, since one can feel sexually attracted out of pure necessity towards someone whose physique one doesn't like nor feels at ease with) and/or by affection flavoured with friendship. That is, if an interaction begins to move from just friendship towards something else and one doesn't block it and just lets go, it's very easy to end up having physical contact with someone that doesn't make you happy. Our society, where most people seem to be having a relationship with someone conceding - more or less explicitly - that, if they could gain access to other people they like more but feel inaccessible they would leave their current partner, is full of examples of things ending up like that: the way to live an unhappy life settling for not being able to do what one always wanted to do. {Now this is just frankly a high entropy concept of PMR that you simply have to work on. As I started my earlier comments, "You don't know any young women, desirable or otherwise. You only know fellow participants in the PMR VR taking those roles, just as you are taking a role therein." If you cannot reach that point of realization, then you are stuck with possibly finding wonderful beings undesirable because you find them physically unattractive in the role, and particularly the body, that they have assumed here in PMR, then that is your problem and your loss.}

In any case, yes, it would most likely "work". That is, if one opens up to such relationships without blocking affection and/or sexual impulses, it wouldn't probably take long before, without even trying, one found himself in a relationship with a female. If you judge "success" from that point of view, it cannot be denied that such approach probably works wonders. But the thing is that wouldn't be success, but "failure". "Success" would be getting such a relationship with someone who has the features one likes, and not with someone who doesn't have them and therefore makes one unhappy. Most people would probably have a different point of view (they can know better about their lives than I can, since they are the ones behind their consciousness), but it's precisely such personal and subjective nature of what is "good" that can support my point of view that, no matter how others feel, I wouldn't be happy ending up with such a kind of "love" relationship. This is kind of like the frequent dichotomy about "alone" versus "in bad company". So, what can be done? Well, perhaps, when all is said and done, in absence of a means to scan the entire world population in seek of a person with the features one likes, all that can be done is such choice between "loneliness" and "settling for someone whose love company is not as bad as loneliness".

Now you are probably thinking that I am overanalyzing and overintellectualizing and that that is a mistake. {No, not what I think at all. I think you are letting your emotional compass be driven by testosterone, to put it politely. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but look at your prospective sweetie's mother. In a generation, sweetie will look something like this. Now look at sweetie's grandmothers. In two generations, sweetie will look something like this. Now look at your own father and grandfathers. In similar time periods, you will look something like this. Now this applies to their voice and their disposition as well as their physical beauty. If you can't see yourself still loving and desiring the person you visualize on this basis and they being able to put up with someone who looks like you projected on the future, then rethink your attitudes. Nothing to do with MBT or NPMR. That's just the way it works here in PMR.} However, the boundary between not analyzing enough and overanalyzing is very diffuse and blurred as I see it. Nor can I see how, when or why one should consider giving up a logical approach and jumping on the wagon of "letting go whatever it is", if that goes against one's interests and against what one seeks and wishes.

{You are stepping outside of the sphere of the metaphysics and insights of MBT and into the world of PMR social and love life strategy on which I offer no opinion except beware of Illusion. Try Dear Abby or the Playboy Journal? There is no inside track provided by MBT to success in the finding of the chic of all your fantasies. Not in my mind anyway.}

Ted & Tom,

I am always very grateful for your replies. Sometimes they get no reply on my part not because I don't throughly read and try to understand them but because given how long it would take to write a rational reply I end up putting it up forever. In any case, I apologize if I am being too critic when it comes to replying, but this is the best I can do in order to be able to convey into words what I feel inside of me so to speak. I cannot just tell you "yes, I will follow your advice" if then, deep inside, I am not truly convinced. I would definitely like to thank you for your always good intent when it comes to answering my questions. Again, apologies for my ongoing trying to rebut the points you make.

{Best of wishes in solving your problem. Sincerely, Ted}
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Re: Relationships

Post by aprilhannah »

I sometimes wonder if this whole infidelity thing, "cheating" and the construct of marriage is actually driven by the belief system of marriage within our culture and a trap that lends to people's mis-trust, fear of trusting others etc. There appear to be so many "rules" to marriage like some rules or religions.

I've sat across many people in my clinical practice and personal life and have heard many many stories about people having realtionships outside of their primary relationship. I use to have a very bitter take on anyone breaking vow's and engaging in relationships outside of their relationship years ago. I think this primarily was due to my religious upbringing of what I was taught about right and wrong, sinning etc. My views have changed drastically and I no longer see it as such a negative thing.

I read on another thread about karma and free will and how Tom mentions it isn't so much about the choices we make being bad or good but more about the intent driving it.

In the stories I have listened to and having evolved a bit myself about this whole concept of cheating I have now been able to see maybe why this happens in people's lives ( in many people's lives). It appears there is usually a reason why these relationships manifest, there is growth for all involved, maybe some are due to a past life connection but there appears to be some sense as to why it happens in all the stories I have heard.

The more I have been reading lately about falling in love vs. falling in need also makes sense why these relationships happen and many may be ego driven. Just some random thoughts here tonight...

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Re: Relationships

Post by bette »

I think marriage was created for stability for children, but it doesn't work. I think the legal contract, because that is what marriage is, should be between the father and child, and between the mother and child, but not between the two adults. They should have free will in everything but responsibility to the child. It is a social construct.
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Re: Relationships

Post by Montana »

This is an important thread, thanks for starting it Tom. While in the original post you were responding to the needs of a particular individual, it also sounded like you meant to indicate general principles, and relationships in general, not just human romantic-orientated interactions.

Assuming it's okay, I'd like to now steer the discussion to that broader perspective.

Real life situations somewhat highlight broader and more complex questions involved with relationships.

Here is a tricky one that a woman I know is facing: She has gotten involved in a business, pretty much putting everything on the line with it. Her business partner, however, is mentally collapsing under the stress of the business. She (the business partner), has become verbally abusive and hostile, attempts to humiliate her in front of others, and interferes with her trying to get work done. If the first woman, now penniless, leaves this very trying situation, she loses everything, the business will be lost, and the business partner and friend, of whom she is truly fond and wants to see succeed, may very likely go into a complete mental collapse with all sorts of deranged ideation and consequent activity. If she stays, she continues to subject herself to a hostile de-evolutionary environment in which the quality of her consciousness will almost inevitably suffer.

What is she to do....?

-Montana
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Ted Vollers
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Re: Relationships

Post by Ted Vollers »

Basically this is where free will comes in. There is not a right or wrong. She tries to ride the hurricane or she does not. She may have more strength than is assumed or she can learn detachment to minimize the stress and damage. This is the kind of interaction by which one leans the most, potentially. The score is not kept here but rather in CS/NPMR.

My opinion.

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Re: Relationships

Post by ingerul9 »

Hi Montana and others.

I was in a similar yet a bit different situation than your friend. My answer is that she shouldn't consider herself responsible for her colleague opinions and view of reality. In my case I left and started fresh. This was for me one of the best decision that I took in my life. New opportunities came from leaving the old situation. I was able to enjoy once again life and begin, sustain an equilibrium that I hadn't before.

If she leaves she will send a message to her partner. If she gets it or not that is up to her. I understand that every situation is different than any other one. So my suggestion wouldn't work for everybody. One of the difficult decisions I have read about was about one women who had a husband diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. One of the side effects of the disease was his inability to have patience or be understanding. So he would often get angry to her. She was asking in a forum what she should do. She realized that maybe her husband was acting that way due to his new neurological pathway in his brain that was altered once the disease had been spread out but in the other way she felt unable to cope with the stress of the whole situation. She felt many times like leaving him. She was quite in a dilemma if she should leave him or not. I don't know what she did in the end and I don't know what I would've done in the same situation.

Every situation is different. Every decision is up to you. I am more selfish in my view. I am selfish but at the same time I try to not step on the free will of anybody. In the case of your friend it's not like your friend cannot ask for help or be somewhat more understandable. Sometime you just have to stand up and say no. Start new and you will be surprised.

I am not saying that staying is not one of the solutions. But staying requires you to deal with a "bad" environment in which you should learn in a hard way. Remember that people depressed don't feel good with optimistic people. People depressed feel good with others just like them and vice versa.

It's obvious that you should reassess your own ideas about reality depending on the case. For instance if you are at work in an environment in which you don't like your work mates and seems that nobody understands you maybe it is your issue and not the others. Everyone takes his decision with his own understanding. How small or large is your understanding is based on your QoC at the being level.
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Re: Relationships

Post by ingerul9 »

I decided to post about the underlying discussion about romantic relationships in a new paragraph.

My idea about relationships is that they should be freer than they are currently. I am in a committed relationship and while I am in it I agree to my partners wishes of not seeing other girls because that's the way we are growing together, building a foundation and reach a common ground to work with. But that's not my view of how relationships should develop. This doesn't create confusion inside me.

People should be allowed to choose what they want even have multiple partners. For those who have children you don't get upset if she or he switches partners while they are young. You know you love them unconditionally. No matter what they do you love them, even in bad times. Why can't the same be said in a open relationship? I understand that our society doesn't have a high QoC because you can see it in the media all over the place. But if you have high QoC of people why is that so bad to have them together? Every love is different. No one is the same. You can love someone and be with them for a day or for a while and end it sometime. That can be love. You can love someone and be with them for the rest of the life. That can be love. You can love multiple persons for what they are and be with them. That can be love.

The idea of forming a couple creates so many problems in the first place. We are seeing so many break-ups and separations because people aren't allowed to explore their nature. Sexuality isn't understood. You can use sex in a good way or a bad way. For some sex is love and for others is not. We are one big family. Why don't we accept others into our family? Why should we be restricted in a closed relationship? The portrait of The One is a concept created by society. There is never The One. The One is the Many. The One is how you define it.

In general people create the concept of The One according to their wishes. How about accepting them for what they are. That's what creation stands for, celebrating diversity and not conformity, not the sameness. Whenever a woman searches for a man it is for the One. How about the concept of being in the Now in a relationship. Live your life in the now and whatever way it will be. Accept it. Let it end or let it continue as it will. No point in worrying about how it will end. Expectations is one of the killer ideas about relationships.

People cheat because they don't know how to deal with integrity. Open relationship is not the same as cheating. For me open relationships means informing all of your partners and acting in the best way possible for all of them. Impossible you may say. I say it's possible and in the future we will see that. Maybe not in the near future but someday it will be one big family.
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