A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Squippel
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:41 pm
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Contact:

A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Squippel »

First off, I'd like to say if free will does not exist, I've realized it's okay because it does not subtract from having experiences. So if you struggle with this, it's really alright because we all have beneficial experiences, whether it was our responsibility for them or not.

If free will does exist, I could not fathom of how it possibly would, until now. Tom's thoughts on free will in MBT were not satisfying for me at all (I reread this and thought it sounded harsh, so it's not that the explanation is poor, I just thought it didn't answer enough questions). I've come to a MBT derived proposal of an account of free will in the physical which is that free will works under the psi uncertainty principle.

Premises
1. The laws of physics cannot be broken in a measured system
2. Uncertain events can be altered
3. (Tom has said something along these lines on the forum and in the fireside chat) The measured effect in the brain is CREATED by the measurement because the physics must remain consistent. An uncaused event will never be observed in a measured system.

The psi uncertainty principle works for free will. There has to be uncertainty in order to make choices [edit: uncertainty of input and brain processes]. Making choices is an expression of intent, intent that alters probabilities. If all the information was obtained about a particular human's brain, then for the human to act in contradiction to the input experience in his brain would break the laws of physics. No choices can be willed because the reduction of uncertainty does not allow him to make choices. Like Heisenberg uncertainty, however, this information is impossible to obtain without affecting the system. If the physical world is known in it's entirety than according to it's rules, altering the probabilities is not be possible, so it isn't beneficial for AUM to have this as a feature of VRs.

A very interesting idea here is that measuring all brain activity would make it impossible for a human to have free will because he can't alter probabilities in his brain chemistry. The chemistry follows after choices are made, but that this information isn't obtainable here anyway, so won't ever be a problem. Awhile ago I kept reducing the problem of free will down to if the existence non-causality was possible, which I still think has merit but it's not so cut and dry because choices are not completely acausal (if you don't have input what are you going to make decisions about?)

What do you think? Where have I gone wrong? What should be added? Taken away? I truly do feel this is an achievement right now. I'm finally at peace with this. Do you think these ideas and MBT ideas in general are worth writing about in some philosophy journal?

I've asked a lot of questions and just through out some heavy stuff, so please read attentively I appreciate you taking the time to read my post! Thanks.

Edit: To be clear about what my goal here is: I've been trying to figure out a way to break causality of physics as expressed in our neurobiology. I don't know why I haven't seen it before, but applying Tom's psi uncertainty to our brains allows a rationale to exist to let go of a deterministic point of view that our neuroscience supports. The reason neuroscience supports determinism is because it has to measure causal events or else it has created inconsistencies.
Last edited by Squippel on Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"
User avatar
bette
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by bette »

Hi Squippel,

This is some heavy thinking you have done here. What I understand about the PSI Uncertainty Principle PUP is, well, hm...What do I understand about the PUP? I know it is not connected to free will choices other than we can only chose to do what is possible per the physics rule set here as our free will choice, anything not allowed within the physics rule-set would have to violate the PUP to be measured using the tools science currently has. Hm, I think that is important, and your ideas created that. Is that important, do you think?
Love
Bette
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.
User avatar
pgtrue
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 1058
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:30 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by pgtrue »

Squippel wrote:First off, I'd like to say if free will does not exist, I've realized it's okay because it does not subtract from having experiences. So if you struggle with this, it's really alright because we all have beneficial experiences, whether it was our responsibility for them or not.

If free will does exist, I could not fathom of how it possibly would, until now. Tom's thoughts on free will in MBT were not satisfying for me at all (I reread this and thought it sounded harsh, so it's not that the explanation is poor, I just thought it didn't answer enough questions). I've come to a MBT derived proposal of an account of free will in the physical which is that free will works under the psi uncertainty principle.

Premises
1. The laws of physics cannot be broken in a measured system
2. Uncertain events can be altered
3. (Tom has said something along these line this on the forum and in the fireside chat) The measured effect in the brain is CREATED by the measurement because the physics must remain consistent. An uncaused event will never be observed in a measured system.

The psi uncertainty principle works for free will. There has to be uncertainty in order to make choices. Making choices is an expression of intent, intent that alters probabilities. If all the information was obtained about a particular human's brain, then for the human to act in contradiction to the input experience in his brain would break the laws of physics. No choices can be willed because the reduction of uncertainty does not allow him to make choices. Like Heisenberg uncertainty, however, this information is impossible to obtain without affecting the system. If the physical world is known in it's entirety than according to it's rules, altering the probabilities is not be possible, so it isn't beneficial for AUM to have this as a feature of VRs.

An very interesting idea here is that measuring all brain activity would make it impossible for a human to have free will because he can't alter probabilities in his brain chemistry. The chemistry follows after choices are made, but that this information isn't obtainable here anyway, so won't ever be a problem. Awhile ago I kept reducing the problem of free will down to if the existence non-causality was possible, which I still think has merit but it's not so cut and dry because choices are not completely acausal (if you don't have input what are you going to make decisions about?)

What do you think? Where have I gone wrong? What should be added? Taken away? I truly do feel this is an achievement right now. I'm finally at peace with this. Do you think these ideas and MBT ideas in general are worth writing about in some philosophy journal?

I've asked a lot of questions and just through out some heavy stuff, so please read attentively I appreciate you taking the time to read my post! Thanks.

Free must exist. otherwise we would be automatons and there would be nothing to learn. And there would be no purpouse to this elaborate, virtual reality consciousness evolution experiment. We can direct our thoughts and modify our intentions. We can improve the quality of our choices and, essentially, the quality of our consciousness.
It is only after the choice is made, and events set in motion, that freewill loses efficacy.
Like with a pool of water, If I drop a stone into it, a wave will be produced. Once the wave is set in motion we cannot undo the wave untill it runs its course.


peace
patrick
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Ted Vollers »

Squippel,

There are basically two aspects or levels to Tom's model of reality as a digital Consciousness Space. At the base level of reality cells within which perturbed cells versus unperturbed cells function as both operative code and data upon which the code operates, free will must exist for consciousness to exist. Otherwise we have just a cellular automaton operating at a fixed, rule set based interaction of cells with cells. Tom's model does not say precisely how this is brought about nor precisely how consciousness arises. Nor can we, as Individuated Units Of Consciousness, reach this level of reality cells, code and data to observe it or manipulate it in any way. That is the level where we exist as digital consciousnesses, not the level at which we operate as experiencers of Virtual Realities. We as IUOCs also function together as the Higher Consciousness, the Absolute Unbounded Manifold. All through the magic of time sharing, just as within a modern PMR computer. Just as no PMR computer can reach in and change its data and program other than as is done within that program itself, we cannot access this level of reality.

At the next level of organization we have the Virtual Realities. At this level, The Big Computer within CS creates digital data streams that represent the experience we observe as we participate in the VR. This data stream is based upon probabilities at base and a specific instantiation for each delta t of the data stream for the VR representation is collapsed out of this probability wave to produce the individual data stream for the specific experience for each participating IUOC. Each following delta t for the VR is based upon the projection ahead of the strictly probability based aspects of the VR integrated with the free will based choices of the participating IUOCs. This is the second level of the model where the exercise of free will is necessary to the functioning and resulting value of the VR. This aspect of free will is the free will that you are discussing and feel does not exist.

If you read and study some more to the point that you understand this description, you can critique your own discussion in your post. The existence of free will in these ways is necessary within Tom's model of our reality as a digital Consciousness Space.

Ted
Squippel
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:41 pm
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Squippel »

Ted Vollers wrote:Squippel,

If you read and study some more to the point that you understand this description, you can critique your own discussion in your post. The existence of free will in these ways is necessary within Tom's model of our reality as a digital Consciousness Space.

Ted
I do understand the description, but it doesn't provide a rationale for why free will is possible in with our physics. Saying free will and consciousness require each other to exist and that "his is the second level of the model where the exercise of free will is necessary to the functioning and resulting value of the VR" still does not explain how choices here are possible. I understand the model, but if I observe the colors green and blue, that doesn't tell me why they are green and blue. Saying free will is necessary operator of all consciousness and "computing reality" (which I don't dispute) doesn't explain why free will is possible. if you missed when I edited my post I added this:

Edit: To be clear about what my goal here is: I've been trying to figure out a way to break causality of physics as expressed in our neurobiology. I don't know why I haven't seen it before, but applying Tom's psi uncertainty to our brains allows a rationale to exist to let go of a deterministic point of view that our neuroscience supports. The reason neuroscience supports determinism is because it has to measure causal events or else it has created inconsistencies.
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"
User avatar
bette
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by bette »

Free will doesn't have anything to do with physics.
Love
Bette
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Ted Vollers »

Squippel,

Our physics is not a known or absolute. It is being worked out day by day by practicing physicists. There are unexplained things remaining. I do not see that there is any basis in what is known that says that free will does not exist. But that is just my opinion and has little to do with anything. The question of free will or not under the PMR physics rule set is not a question for here. We really don't do PMR physics here. With this being a VR under Tom's model, we don't really believe that the PMR physics rule set always prevails. Consciousness can alter the outcome. Most of the time, the PMR rule set is maintained, but that does not mean that things don't happen that are not according to that rule set. PSI happens after all. I am not aware of neurology being so advanced that it can state that what occurs in our virtual brain is deterministic and prohibits free will. It is still figuring out how things work, as I understand the situation.

Ted
User avatar
Justin
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Justin »

Squippel wrote:
Ted Vollers wrote:Squippel,

If you read and study some more to the point that you understand this description, you can critique your own discussion in your post. The existence of free will in these ways is necessary within Tom's model of our reality as a digital Consciousness Space.

Ted
I do understand the description, but it doesn't provide a rationale for why free will is possible in with our physics. Saying free will and consciousness require each other to exist and that "his is the second level of the model where the exercise of free will is necessary to the functioning and resulting value of the VR" still does not explain how choices here are possible. I understand the model, but if I observe the colors green and blue, that doesn't tell me why they are green and blue. Saying free will is necessary operator of all consciousness and "computing reality" (which I don't dispute) doesn't explain why free will is possible. if you missed when I edited my post I added this:

Edit: To be clear about what my goal here is: I've been trying to figure out a way to break causality of physics as expressed in our neurobiology. I don't know why I haven't seen it before, but applying Tom's psi uncertainty to our brains allows a rationale to exist to let go of a deterministic point of view that our neuroscience supports. The reason neuroscience supports determinism is because it has to measure causal events or else it has created inconsistencies.
Hi Squippel,

Have you read the trilogy yet? I do not mean this to sound rude at all, but you seemed to be pretty confused regarding the MBT model. I am halfway through my second read and can't believe some of the obvious things that I missed the first time. One of the key points in Tom's model is why such searches ("...figure out a way to break causality of physics as expressed in our neurobiology") will not uncover any big "T" Truth.

The evolution of consciousness is the driving force behind all of "this". This reality, the brain, "non-physical reality", psi uncertainty principle, etc.... all of these things exist as a result of consciousness continuing to evolve. If any of these things did not in some way support the long term growth of all-that-is then they would not exist or would in time dissolve and eventually be replaced by things that do. Free will is a natural result of this process. There are limitations however. To very loosely use one of Tom's analogies... we don't give guns to kindergartens because they might shoot each other. However, they can still have a favorite color, choose what game to play at recess, they can choose to cry, or hit, or be kind, etc. As they grow up, they have more choices... a larger decision space... less limitations. Such is the case with consciousness and free will. Another analogy is a man in prison. He and I both have the ability to make choices, but his choices are limited by the prison system. We can both make choices within our own realms.

So what determines the level of such limitations? The long term growth of all-that-is. Consciousness in fundamental. Everything else is a result or byproduct of that consciousness evolving.

One of the key messages in MBT (as I have intrepreted it) is that big T Truth is found through self. We (self) are the way to uncovering truth and at the same time we are that which blocks the truth from ourselves. This is no accident of course.

I would suggest reading or taking a closer look at the trilogy.
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"
User avatar
Specialis Sapientia
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1233
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Specialis Sapientia »

Hey Squippel

The relation between consciousness and the brain is indeed an interesting thing to explore. Some great posts on the subject already exists here on the board.

The solution to your problem seems to be in the belief of an universal causality, which creates a lot of illogical problems. This reality frame we operate in has a local rule-set (physics) and a local causality, but these are just the subsets of a higher level of causality (superset). Free-will is not created by physics, it's just a higher level causality to the local rule-set of it. Free-will comes from consciousness which is best modelled as a superset. The expression of consciousness and thus free-will is constrained by the rule-set and the virtual brain, but the state of the virtual brain is still rather a result of intent instead of the opposite. Change in intent and the quality of consciousness will immediately reflect in the brain, this is how the causality works. Psychological trauma such as PTSD (to use an example) is not the result of the brain somehow becoming damaged, and then result in a person with another mental state. The traumatic personal experience is absorbed and processed, which can have consequences at a deeper level, the brain damage then reflects this change in consciousness. What if I lose half my brain? The consciousness of the PMR "player" is then suddenly constrained to some new conditions, which may limit decision space and cognitive ability, but the PMR player is still able to make decisions based on intent and evolve or devolve accordingly.

Simply put, the virtual brain is the constraint of consciousness (and free-will) while consciousness can change the constraint by intent. Consciousness leads, when it is supported by the rule-set. The brain can be seen as a potential, of which some is lost when the brain is damaged.

As you see, it's very dynamic!

Well, this thread will be profitable read for you then! viewtopic.php?f=9&t=473
User avatar
kroeran
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 3503
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by kroeran »

Squippel wrote:
I do understand the description, but it doesn't provide a rationale for why free will is possible in with our physics.
you are one scary smart dude. Indeed, free will is not possible with "our" small physics.
Squippel wrote: Saying free will and consciousness require each other to exist and that "this is the second level of the model where the exercise of free will is necessary to the functioning and resulting value of the VR" still does not explain how choices here are possible.
indeed it does not. The QoC which informs the Intent/Motivation behind the apparent PMR choices are not made here, in PMR.
Squippel wrote: I understand the model, but if I observe the colors green and blue, that doesn't tell me why they are green and blue. Saying free will is necessary operator of all consciousness and "computing reality" (which I don't dispute) doesn't explain why free will is possible.
indeed, free will is not possible if you do not take into account that it occurs outside of physical material reality (PMR).
Squippel wrote: if you missed when I edited my post I added this:

Edit: To be clear about what my goal here is: I've been trying to figure out a way to break causality of physics as expressed in our neurobiology.
PMR is one local physical VR of many that is being interfered with by intentionally baked in randomness to keep things interesting and free will awareness units (all AUM/NPMR-based sentient entities) guiding the sensor platforms.
Squippel wrote: I don't know why I haven't seen it before, but applying Tom's psi uncertainty to our brains allows a rationale to exist to let go of a deterministic point of view that our neuroscience supports.
like AUM tracing through every possible experience vector, rationales can be made and followed to their natural terminus... perhaps you could elaborate on your thinking here. Why are you trying so hard to pack all this meat into little Einsteinian physics? Do you not accept as valid data that you have a persistent and non-physical existence that may operate with or without a brain?
Squippel wrote: The reason neuroscience supports determinism is because it has to measure causal events or else it has created inconsistencies.
yes, when a sphere passes through flatland, you have one hell of an inconsistency - flatlanders are well practised in averting their eyes
Does this PMR make my butt look big?
User avatar
pgtrue
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 1058
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:30 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by pgtrue »

If anything is impossible, it is only impossible based on the laws we know.
There may, in fact, be rules that we do not know
If there are laws that we are unaware of, then anything is possible.




peace
patrick
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick
User avatar
kroeran
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 3503
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Location: Florario/Ontorida
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by kroeran »

putting ourselves in a completely normal PMR frame of reference for a moment...

when you really think about it, existence itself is impossible. The human mind cannot conceive of how anything could have gotten started, let alone establishing the ruleset for physical and life form evolution.

The data of little Physics points to a big bang, which is no more satisfying than "God created the universe in seven days." Who created God, and what triggered the big bang, and fractally so on back and back?

I perceive myself sitting in a chair and writing on this forum, but if I really think about it, this is impossible.

thats my starting point - I have no idea WTF is going on, even if there were no direct PSI experience to reference (ie. spheres passing through flatland).

that is the basis of the openness part of open scepticism in my view.
Does this PMR make my butt look big?
User avatar
Montana
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 2525
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:53 am

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Montana »

An additional thought that might ought to be tossed in with the above mix is the so-called "Butterfly Effect".

It got called that, I presume, after it became understood that there was a physical principle at work in a which a Chinamen might sneeze, or a butterfly there might give a flap, and the permutations of that effect might precipitate a gale in North America.

It got going, as I recall, in the early days of computing, when a meteorologist was trying to forecast future weather events using limited input data, and running a suite of self correcting iterations on them. What he found was that using the same initial data and re-running the program several times produced a widely different result each time.

Further study revealed that prognosticating for complex systems has a critical bug in the very idea. It's called "extreme sensitivity to initial conditions".

The upshot is that even the eency-weenciest tiny little fragment of an atom of a chunk of micro-level data, if it varies, can have profound effects on the outcome of macro-level prognostications or results.

It happens that any complex dynamic system (including human beings or groups of them) will have an indefinitely large number of these variable pieces of data.

Mapping out the probable, possible, unlikely and extremely unlikely futures, when doing this, looks exactly like a fractal. And one of the key features of fractals is that although patterns are obviously orderly, regions (which represent possible outcomes here) vary radically. Just an idget of departure on the 'map' lands you in a radically different outcome.

The suggestion here is that free-will, if indeed it does exist, has this extreme sensitivity to initial conditions as a substantial component.

Tom insists that free-will must exist. A mainstream philosopher whose name is escaping me at present, insists that free-will evolves as consciousness evolves, and has written a book about that. ("Free Will Evolves").

Personally, I'm still on the fence, though I respect both those guys' having traveled a lot further than I have. Probably, I just don't yet have a sufficient model-bundle, thought-set, whatever, to think about the matter properly with.

-Montana
User avatar
bette
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Contact:

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by bette »

Montana, your post reminds me of DNA, and how just one little change can mean some thing huge.
Love
Bette
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.
User avatar
Montana
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 2525
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:53 am

Re: A proposal of Free Will under a MBT understanding

Post by Montana »

Little initial changes in input can make a big difference in outputs in a variety of platforms, like genetics.

To a working group of 12 people, the addition or subtraction of one can yield a wildly different result.

I have noticed that even with the same people, simply a re-arranging of the furniture, or the addition of some piece of art on the wall, or meeting in a different room, can radically changes what the group is or how it functions.... WAY more than I ever would have expected.

We're not too far off track with this thread yet, nor wander too far to say that, when it comes to free will, it will pay to give as much attention as possible to initial conditions. Even small, seemingly inconsequential ones.

And yet, intent, if I understand the matter properly, should clear the path of all that.

-Montana
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy/Metaphysics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests