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 Post subject: Low Cost EEG feedback
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:14 am 
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I am thinking about trying this unit out, is anybody using this device already?

http://www.neurosky.com/Default.aspx


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:44 am 
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That looks extremely interesting, thynes, and at a quite reasonable cost (£63.76), as you say - though, alas! still not justifiable for me in my current financial state, though once upon a time, I would have gone for it, no question! It certainly would take the 'guesswork' out of whether the desired state has been reached, and give the feedback for repeating it. Like you, I'd be interested if anybody's been using one.

You really shouldn't 'dangle' these goodies in front of us (me) - it's unsettling - I want one! ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Looks interesting. I took a biofeedback class 11 or so years ago that was pretty amazing. This item (assuming it works) could be a pretty useful tool.

EDIT: I browsed around some more and watched some youtube demos. I want one.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Very interesting. Might look into getting one if I ever have the extra funds. Thanks. If anyone gets one, let us know how it goes for you.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:35 am 
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I'm seriously thinking about getting it. Sounds like a lot of fun, what geek pleasure :D

And not just for myself, I'd love to make lab rats out of my friends, they'll get a kick out of it ;)

I wonder how it'll act in the various states, I can't wait. I have bipolar friends, I wonder what that'll look like on them. What would it do when i make music? Wonder if I can transpose the waves into auditory music, what would that sound like? Aw man, I can't wait.

(I can't find any user reviews though. Most of the youtube reviews are done by the company -.-)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:17 pm 
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The PC version looks better for studying the raw EEG feed, but not quite in production yet

My goal is to be able confirm that I am entraining to 4 hrz and lower when listening to binaural

Not clear to me that the iPhone version can do that

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:18 pm 
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This looks promising but information is a bit lacking and it's a little confusing. It seems like the MindWave is their flagship product.

I like the idea of the meditation journal app but the measurements seem a little limited. You only get a lumped "meditation" score (I don't see a formula for how this is calculated anywhere, but I think I read that it measures Alpha waves.. which is too bad because we want Theta measured). To get raw EEG data is looks like you have to buy the research tools app ($500), develop your own program using one of their drivers (code in C, Java, MatLab, whatever) to parse the raw data for your own uses, or one of the other headsets (the iPhone one gives some frequency data but is also rather limited). The other headsets have even less information available. Maybe I'm missing something.

Then again for $100, it's probably in the disposable income range of many people so it could be worth a shot. Perhaps just knowing that your meditation score increases over time is enough to be of value, maybe. Most of the marketing seems targeted at the attention measurement for education and gaming.

With a dry electrode it also makes me wonder how accurate the measurements really are. My understanding is that noise is a huge problem with this technology. They can say the measurements are accurate but are they?

Here's a decent personal review:

http://www.mdbreview.com/2011/09/neurosky-mindwave.html

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Speaking about synchoronicity - I ordered one last week, it should arrive tomorrow. I'll be able to answer questions after few days of playing with it. The default power spectrum display is too coarse though, it has like 8 bars or so for the whole frequency range. I will most likely write software to have finer display granularity. The SDK libraries are free for download, you just need to connect to it, get raw signal and run Fourier transform on it. There is iPhone version available (Xwave) through another company that uses Neurosky chip, but reviews on it weren't great, mostly due to buggy iPhone software.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:34 pm 
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That's cool alik, I'd love to hear your results. Here's a pretty cool app that integrates binaural beat entrainment:

http://store.neurosky.com/products/mind-workstation

It's expensive but there's a 2 week free trial:

http://www.transparentcorp.com/products ... /index.php

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:06 am 
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In the biofeedback class that I took years ago, the machine measured EEG via three electrodes on the forehead (wet connection). A sound was created by the machine that corresponded to the frequency. A higher tone indicated that you were moving toward Delta/Theta while a lower tone indicated that you were headed the other direction. It was immensely helpful. I would love to have that exact machine; very simple... but I'm sure it is way out of my price range.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:29 am 
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Well I have been doing a little more research into this devise and here is an interesting youtube from a cognitive neuroscientist on the .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... QOfIjFG9CE

Arthhur - :)) sorry for the dangle.... Ive been looking a long time for something affordable that would give me accurate EEG information. I think I go pretty deep in my meditations but have no clue of how deep, I have just ordered it but will have to wait to use it since it is my Christmas present :)


msagansk - I to was confused about some of the applications and what the output was also, there are other things I have found without spending anymore money like this open source EEGlab which works with the Neurosky equipment http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/downloadtoolbox.html. There are other options as well you just have to dig a little bit to get the type of output you want to see.

Justin - they have an app called chanter that gives you instant audio feedback about your mental state while you meditate. When your meditation level changes, the tone of a sound loop changes accordingly. I don't know how it would compare to the lab quality equipment you were using but worth a try either way.

alik - cool, if you run into anything useful for this devise please share and Ill do the same.


willmeister - I agree this should be fun and informative also this is something that family and friends can use, you can get 20$ in free apps if you order one before christmas.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:36 am 
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Good stuff. Thanks for the info thynes. Keep us posted!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:41 pm 
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I am using the device since 2 months and would like to give you some feedback. It is really interesting to see on a PC screen that there is something going on in your head, yes. After a long time experimenting with binaural beats i wanted to have a direct insight into the state of the brain and so i started to use this device. My conclusions below:

1. There is a lag of up to (as per my feeling) 3 seconds between measurement and calculation resp. Display on screen. I think this is mainly due to the fourier and some other compensating calculations. I have found this out when suddenly interrupting my meditative state (opening my eyes and concentrating immediately on something "concrete" . The main drawback is therefore the missing "realtime" feedback. For people who just want to learn the difference between a meditative and "normal" state it is still fine enough.

2. The device has obviously some built-in defined states. Raw data means therefore only the values for this buil-in states. Means it diffrentiates between alpha, low-alpha, high-alpha, etc. So do not expect that with the right program you can measure other values, e.g. if you are now exactly on 3.85 Hz. or not.

3. For me personally, the device is still a very good device which gives you the possibility to train and learn meditative states. Especially if you have difficulties to keep such a state. For example i found out, that i am only able to keep a meditative state for 5 to 6 seconds before i unconciously went back to a non meditative state. After a short time, it was quite easy for me to keep this state much longer.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:57 pm 
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are you using mindwave or mindset?

http://store.neurosky.com/collections/hardware

it appears from here all the hardware is available...I must have been on an out of date website earlier

what is the price point for a machine that can detect 3.8 ish?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:29 pm 
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I am using the mindwave, since neither ipad nor iphone user, instead android phone and android tablet user :)

Btw. I found out that the best way for the time being is to use the mindwave for learning to keep the meditative state. Afterwards, the most effective way is to experiment with the meditative state without any device, once yu have a good feeling how to keep it. The fine-tuning i believe is most effective when doing by learning without a device.
I do not know about any other product which can give a more accurate measurement with better granularity.


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