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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:22 pm 
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if you want 'the little you' to survive, i guess make this the most awe inspiring learning curve youve had yet, make it better than those other PMRs, as you dont remember them, better make it really good just to cover past achievments.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:04 pm 
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I find it comforting that so many here didn't take 50 years to "get it", to grow into their QoC, like I have done, if in fact I have grown into it. I do feel I am growing into it which is good.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:13 am 
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I guess we are lucky to live in an age or a society that allows creative thought and is able to commincate on a mass level, in comparrison of the past I mean. You say your growing into it Bette, it feels natural dosent it :)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:32 am 
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It's starting to, I still have to think about what I will do rather than just naturally doing things with outward intent, and I still do things that I can see I handled badly. It does feels natural in a way that I hope doesn't sound stuck-up (baby, don't be stuck-up), like this is how I am suppose to be, how people can be. I have a long way to go though, jeez, it's constant. In psychology Erik Erikson has an 8 stage development theory that says if you have issues at a stage you go back to it, you can go back to it in theory, once you get over your issues; in NA they say when you get "clean" you start maturing again at the age you were when you started using substances to pretend to avoid life; and now the foundational (how satisfying) QoC concept where you have to mature developmentally AND nonphysically before you can really start to live "naturally", to seemingly "get it" as far as I have it anyway. I'm a slow starter, let's see if I can be a strong finisher as Bette. I just find it very satisfying to see so many young people getting it as well as it does bode well for this learning lab, in my opinion. It kind of keeps me young, in a way. I think we are very lucky, and apparently prepared.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:02 am 
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First of all thank you very much, Ted, for putting those great explanations about the relationship between then Virtual Self and the Higher Self together into one thread. I am in the process of reading a lot in the forum during these last days, because I have many (somewhat burning :-) ) questions I want to ask. But I don't want to increase the entropy of this forum by posting the same questions that other participants have already asked before me. So I am trying my best to read as much as possible about a topic before posting a question. Which is a very time-consuming process, because this forum is really a plethora of information. (I am not complaining! You all did an invaluable job for people on the search for real and BS-free answers about spiritual or metaphysical topics [please replace BS by whichever of the two options you prefer more ;-) ])

I am re-quoting those two excerpts by Trom, because I think they help as an introduction to my question:
twcjr wrote:JoshM,
YOU are playing a data stream computer game that produces experience (the best teacher) and have just decided to change YOUR character's outfit (called a "meatsuit"). Nobody dies. YOUR character in the game is limited to work within the games rule-set. That character (you) is a projection of a copy of a portion of YOUR content, a part of YOU (the big YOU), a virtual characterization of YOU constrained by a rule-set -- a virtual alter ego -- working to become an alter no-ego. Little you is actually the big YOU in a constrained cowboy disguise, stop identifying with the little virtual you that doesn't really exist except as a virtual character in a computer game. YOU occasionally switch the virtual character's meatsuits to gain different experience and continue to play the game because YOU learn so much from it since the constraints of the rule-set simplify experience, interaction and feedback to a more effective level for learning. Nothing dies, your characters don't die, they are just virtual - virtual characters can't die, they are made up for the game, they are not real. Constraints come and go on a portion of YOUR content, that's all, and only during the coprocessing time share. YOU are real, not virtual, YOU are consciousness -- the sum of all YOUR virtual and non virtual experiences. YOU are using multiprocessing to send you (a portion of YOU) to a private school with rigid rules while YOU stay home and play computer games -- how sweet is that. You who are really YOU are identifying with the wrong you.
Tom C
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twcjr wrote: When you play your Lizard-man in World of Warcraft (WOW), can you not parallel process and eat some Pizza and talk to your friends who are also playing WOW with you at the same time? If you are young enough, you can probably handle all that while pretending to do your homework. Because you are doing these other things (and lizard man only gets some fraction of your attention) does that mean that the intents and choices you make when you are playing your lizard man character are somehow no longer precisely representative of you? Does it make sense that you are actually a whole lot wiser and more evolved and better at playing the PMR game than the way you play your lizard man? No. You always play lizard man pretty much to the best of your ability - his consciousness is, in fact, your consciousness. There are not two separate consciousnesses here (yours and a higher self) - just one consciousness trying to evolve its quality by playing a multiplayer virtual reality game as best he can and doing a little parallel processing on the side to meet the larger demands of existence (like eating pizza).
I've read these explanations more than once and I also tried to make sure my Ego is not interfering too much and I really like the metaphor of comparing our VR with a classical computer game. Coming from a computer background and thanks to the internet having also played my share of multi-player computer games, I think I have a quite good understanding of the principles of a VR.

Still one thing is IMHO missing in those metaphores. When playing the rich cowboy on a party, the cowboy was referred to as a mask through which you played your role. So you equal the IUOC and the the cowboy equals the little virtual.

Yet the big difference for me is, that the mask of the cowboy does not have any self-awareness. But the little virtual me, that is writing these lines right now feels pretty self-aware and conscious right now.

The same holds if you look a the World of Warcraft example. Sure I (equaling the IUOC) can divide my attention to eating a pizza and controlling the Avatar in WoW (equaling the FWAU in this VR = me in front of this computer) at the same time.
But again the Avatar does not have any consciousness. If I do not move the stick on my controller, the Avatar in WoW will not go anywhere. He will just sit there and let himself even get slaughtered should some other adverse entity in the game come into close proximity. It's me behind the Display and with the controller in the hands who gets the information and makes the necessary decisions and then moves the avatar around in the game. But the avater in the VR is still a dumb puppet. The computer player on the chair moves the strings.

Vs. right now I sitting in front of my computer to write these lines feel like I am doing the typing here. I do not feel like a dumb avatar just moving my fingers to his commands. But I also don't feel like the Gamer with the controller in the hand knowing that I am right now just moving the fingers of an avatar in a VR.

You might consider this splitting hairs, but I think as great as the metaphor of WoW (or any other Multi-Player Role Game in a VR setting) works to explain some of the inner workings between the FWAU and the IUOC, this is were the analogy falls short in my opinion. Unless I have something not quite understood. But I would be surprised if the Avatar in WoW or the pretending personaliy mask of the cowboy at the party would have an awareness of their own, feeling even separate and "lonely" when the contact to me, the computer game player, is interrupted.

Another question that I have in this context, that maybe also be talking semantics to a degree, does also concern my understanding of the FWAU.

As far as I understand the IUOC is an individuated part of AUM intentionally restricted by AUM to have the potential of self-awareness and self-development (and from his perspective) independent from AUM. If that IUOC has become powerful enough (lowered its entropy to a necessary degree) it can support at some point several FWAUs in our PMR at the same time to parallel process and develop thus faster.
But aren't those FWAUs then just another form of individuated consciousness? Like a partitioning within the IUOC (already being a partition within AUM)? Like the next step in the fractal?

I guess, if the answer is just "yes", this might be a short discussion for a change. :-)

As usual any input from you all is highly appreciated.

Tronar

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:59 am 
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Tronar,

The point of using an analogy with playing video games in which a virtual simulation is 'entered' into is not that this is just a dumb puppet being made to do things. The point is more that you as the player of the game represents you as your IUOC playing the game of PMR. What you see on the screen, of your computer or around you in PMR, is a simulation of yourself and your activities. The real you is your mind which is resident as the IUOC within consciousness space. Compare it to your brain in your head as a container for your mind, considering this to be a physical reality. Your brain receives its signals from sense organs and they travel along nerve pathways as digital signals, in essence to where it is interpreted as your experience here. No matter how long or how contorted, that is the same model where The Big Computer sends the digital data representing your experience through the RWW to your IUOC where you interpret it as your experience of physicality in this VR of PMR.

The idea of an FWAU got started to try to illustrate how you experience things differently in different VRs and of the different types of PMRs and NPMRs. You are not partitioning off part of the IUOC to represent an FWAU. It is a matter of time sharing. For most of a total repeating cycle of base delta t's of the LCS, you function as an IUOC as an integral part of AUM, doing whatever you do there, unknown to yourself or anyone. For a small subset of cycles, you receive input data from TBC that represents your NPMR experience which you receive as the FWAU that has been designated and subjected to the rule set of NPMR to interpret this experience correctly. It is the same you as an IUOC code collection that is popping out of one role and picking up briefly and intermittently the other role as a player in NPMR. Then in an even smaller subset of the total repeating cycles you pop into the FWAU that has been designated and subjected to the rule set of PMR to interpret this VR experience of the here and now correctly. It is all the same code within a computer, just processing different data streams in a repeating cycle. You are in essence a general purpose sub routine residing in partitioned memory within the parent computer that is being shared among and processing multiple data streams. Mostly you process the AUM data stream participating in 'being' AUM as an integral part thereof. Then you process the NPMR data stream in a bunch of brief bursts interspersed within the AUM data stream. Then you process one cycle of the PMR data stream. Each of these context switches is fantastically fast and what you experience from the inside is a continuity. A continuity of your NPMR experience and a normally separate continuity of your PMR experience.

Experiencing multiple PMRs is more often a matter of a 'young' IUOC wishing to collect experience rapidly and getting set up to hit a lot of separate PMR data streams instead of just one. It doesn't require a higher level of development. Just getting permission for the set up to be made. You don't do it. It is done for you.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:07 am 
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Hi Tronar. Our IUOC probably do have several constraint containers (FWAU) experiencing different PMRs which as I understand what a different PMR implies is the Reality would have a different rule-set so the different experiences could include something other than human or even critter as we know critter.

I think fractal would be if the player in the game (you) started playing a video game player who then started playing a video game player in a game inside that game but may be wrong.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Ted,


ok, I think I get it that the difference between the "AUM vs. IUOC" pair compared to the "IUOC vs. FWAU" pair is, that the IUOC is really partitioned off from AUMs consciousness. While we can only speculate about AUMs way of experiencing what the billions of IUOCs experience every moment, it is at best a one-way street. So the IUOC has no real awareness connection to the consciousness of AUM, but it is indeed individuated and separated (for the sake of simplicity let's ignore any glitches in the system or any strongly willed attempts of a very low entropy IUOC to consciously connect with AUM). So an IUOC has its own data space and while AUM probably can access that data anytime, its not something you would consider a typical shared workspace.

Whereas IUOC and the FWAU(s) are not really separable. The FWAU is a subroutine, that gets called every x delta-ts, its data is not only accessible by its IUOC, but actually the IUOC is depending on the incoming data to further its growth and writing the results of the subroutine in its workspace. After physical death of the FWAU's meat-suit the data is consciously shared, for example for analysis of the success of the FWAU in reducing the common entropy during the last lifetime. And finally the FWAU is either recycled in the next life run or modified to a degree and then re-used or just stored for future purposes. But the FWAU is no independent existence and the IUOC is forced to focus its intention every x delta-ts onto the FWAU awareness (everytime the delta-t of our PMR VR is incremented) to keep the meat-suit reacting appropiately in the VR.

Did I get it somewhat right this time?

Still, I am puzzled with the awareness from the FWAU's perspective. According to your description and staying within the cowboy analogy, it's like my IUOC is playing the role of the cowboy (my FWAU) at the party (our PMR) every x delta-ts. So while the IUOCs awareness is focussed on NPMR things most of the time, it repeatedly and regularly devotes its attention to the next delta-t increment in our PMR simulation. But its a seamless awareness for the IUOC. It's just multitasking between NPMR and our PMR duties. Like: "now I am doing this task here in NPMR, ah ok the next PMR delta-t increment is about to take place, so let's play Cowboy for a second, ah ok increment is over, I can resume my NPMR task now for the next several delta-t increments within NPMR until it's time again for the next PMR delta-t increase and I have to play Cowboy again"...

I think I got it so far. And the analogies with the cowboy and the WoW avatar still work to this point, like for example you are playing WoW while eating a pizza and maybe even chatting with your friend in the same room.

What's still puzzling me is, why is my Cowboy awareness then from my perspective a seamless continous Cowboy consciousness restricted to PMR? If I am not really a independent separate consciousness evolving on its own, why give me the impression?
Why not just let the consciousness reside fully within the IUOC like the consciousness resides within the human holding the controller and moving his avatar in WoW around? Or like the Cowboy knowing, that in reality he is someone else, he is just playing the cowboy party game at this second and will doing something else the next second until its again time to devote attention to the cowboy game (or moving the controller to make the avatar in WoW run in a direction). That would be just consequent IMHO.
I don't see the point in giving me the impression of self-awareness and independence, when in reality my IUOC is running the show. It would be like giving the Avatar artificial intelligence and self-awareness but still let him be a puppet to the commandos of the controller attached to the computer.

Something is not really making sense for me here, sorry. Either the metaphor is losing its fit at this point, or the system is inefficient (I doubt that) or I am misunderstanding a basic component of the whole mechanics or I don't know...

Thanks for your patience,

Tronar

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Perhaps that is where the analogy breaks down because the character has free will and is not controlled from the outside. The puppet strings are attached here and are called Belief Systems.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:40 pm 
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Tronar,

I'm back to edit this for perhaps a little clarification. Look for the [].

Your IUOC is not running the show but you as your IUOC as constrained to participate here as an FWAU is in fact running the show [as you perceive it here]. Lets try another computer analogy. Your IUOC being somewhat like a spread sheet program, as an example of a really general purpose kind of program usable for anything from mathematical calculations to a data base and even as a sort of word processor, has a lot of data crunching capability. It gets loaded with data by AUM that is relevant to AUM's purposes and consciousness and it spends most of its time doing the computations and contributing what it is requested to contribute as an integral part of AUM. [By loaded with AUM's data, I mean that our IUOC receives incoming data over the RWW, does its requested calculations, and puts the answer back out on the RWW in a continuous processing stream. This is how we function as part of AUM as IUOCs as our most basic function and how we first originated before we became conscious as a participant in NPMR.] It can context switch real fast so frequently AUM pulls its data and slips in the data set that represents your IUOC as it participates in NPMR as its NPMR self/FWAU. [Again this context switching refers to where we get the data stream from over the RWW. We are our NPMR self/FWAU when we are switched to receive the NPMR data stream and interact with it.] So when dealing with NPMR and those activities and interactions, your NPMR self is in charge but actually using the same code as the spreadsheet program that AUM also uses. Then back with the AUM data [as the AUM data stream over the RWW] and more number crunching or whatever for the boss.

After many of these switches, instead of your NPMR data being slipped in, your PMR data is slipped in instead. Now your IUOC is participating in PMR but hey, it is participating as you. [The data stream being interacted with now is the one that defines you and your activities as your PMR self.] The same general program as used for everything and everyone: AUM, NPMR self and you as PMR self. The environment is more potent here and there is more feedback. More potential to find glitches in the underlying software of the spreadsheet program/IUOC so that little glitches can be caught and the code fixed. Things are so laid back in NPMR that the pressure is never really on so finding and fixing a bug is an unlikely thing. Within AUM, you are such a small cog in a big machine full of redundant code with consensus results (perhaps) that any errors are impossible to note and fix. That is basically the idea of creating the VRs so that each IUOC can work on improving its own code to remove minor glitches so that the boss as the whole, unified thing can benefit. You benefit because AUM has provided you with the opportunity to be conscious in the first place as you are so conscious only when you are participating within one of the VRs.

[To further extend this discussion, note that you can develop an understanding and your Intent to be able to switch data streams at will. Not that you can switch to becoming your NPMR self at will but that you can access data from NPMR as part of the cycles where you are participating as your PMR self which means with the constraints of the PMR FWAU. You could in fact tap into your NPMR data stream as Tom does and be aware in both VRs to some extent but this is a more special and further extension of this general ability that requires more development of your abilities as Tom has done. As you tap into NPMR type data over the RWW data stream, you can access the data bases as described and in general, participate, with the limitations on your PMR FWAU per the PMR rule set, in NPMR communications.]

Then of course the cycle starts over. See if that completes or at least improves your metaphorical understanding.

Ted


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