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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Thank you. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:01 pm 
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pgtrue wrote:If you measure intelligence by SAT scores then 200 points would be impressive.

But what if you Measure intelligence by something other than test scores.

It really is, all relative...

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

“The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.”
-Albert Einstein
Naah, I'd never measure intelligence by SAT scores. We don't even have SAT scores here in Europe. :-)
I also never considered explicit intelligence tests (like for example the ones you need to score enough IQ points in to become a member of the mensa club) a good measure for intelligence.
These tests only measure certain analytical, combinatory and other similar capabilities. But there is practical intelligence, there is emotional intelligence and there are a lot of other important things people can be bad at, while still scoring high in those tests.

Your Einstein quotes are amongst my most favorite quotes of all time, btw. He has produced many others I also like very much. For example:
No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
- Albert Einstein

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
- Albert Einstein

Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
- Albert Einstein

I could go on for a while here, because this man really was extraordinary in many ways. But I don't want to derail the thread. :-)

Tronar

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:07 pm 
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bette wrote:Tronar there is history here, years worth of relationships building. Randy and I have met in person and even road in a car together and we have a idea of what the other is "really" saying and he puts Tom on a pedestal which isn't healthy. Thanks for your concern.
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We will always have lucid2!

Sometimes you drive me nuts but I can't stay mad at you long without getting my ass kicked by feedback

I appreciate your measured response to my hissy fit

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Last edited by kroeran on Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Montana wrote:
Lena wrote:
kroeran wrote:"Success Comes from Waiting For the Second Marshmallow
Randy, thank you for this post. This is a good practical advice, and it is never too late to learn this trick, I suppose.

Lena

My first impulse, on reading it, was to run right out and get better impulse control.
Then I got dizzy~

;-D
virtually any activity that requires discipline, develops the delayed gratification muscle, which is initially used as an opposing force against impulse, but is secondarily used as an opposing force against logic itself, when confronted by a whisper or demand from the higher ruleset

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:04 am 
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kroeran wrote: virtually any activity that requires discipline, develops the delayed gratification muscle, which is initially used as an opposing force against impulse, but is secondarily used as an opposing force against logic itself, when confronted by a whisper or demand from the higher ruleset
Sorry, I can't follow your train of thought here. You are saying that discipline is an opposing force against logic?
How so? I can't come up with an example for myself, unless you would exert discipline in a situation, where discpline would be contra-productive. But I guess that's not what you wanted to express, right?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Tronar wrote:
kroeran wrote: virtually any activity that requires discipline, develops the delayed gratification muscle, which is initially used as an opposing force against impulse, but is secondarily used as an opposing force against logic itself, when confronted by a whisper or demand from the higher ruleset
Sorry, I can't follow your train of thought here. You are saying that discipline is an opposing force against logic?
How so? I can't come up with an example for myself, unless you would exert discipline in a situation, where discpline would be contra-productive. But I guess that's not what you wanted to express, right?

Tronar
examples of apparently illogical behavior

-turning the other cheek
-forgiving a loan
-putting your life at risk for justice
-starting a weird science based pseudo cult ; - )
-running a forum for no pay
-managing events for a weird science based pseudo cult for no pay

so, where discipline first takes you into the world of productivity and often ego, discipline can be redirected to incorporate the higher ruleset, which can be apparently illogical from a little science PMR perspective, but is actually logical from a big picture perspective

Maybe discipline is the connector between intent, decision and action, which would be half of effectiveness

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:57 am 
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Ahhh, now I get you. I hadn't considered those examples, because I hadn't deemed following a bigger picture logic as "going against logic". Also some people do those kind of things without knowing the bigger picture, but just because they feel good doing it. I wouldn't qualify this as going against logic as well.

But anyhow, now I understand your idea. I think discipline is an attribute of your character and definitely helpful in achieving a lot of things. As it is repeated here in the forum over and over again: Intent is what matters. Without any discpline you quickly lose your focus, because something else catches your attention. Without focus, you are more like a randomly radiating source of thought fragments than emitting a strong intent.
Without discpline no success in meditation. If you give up, because the first time wasn't what you expected, well...
Without discpline, Tom wouldn't have explored NPMR to the degree he has. And wouldn't have sat down to pour his insights into a huge book. Sitting on his sundeck instead and enjoying a Longdrink would definitely have been more fun in the short-term. So yeah, I agree, discipline is an essential ingredient in the mix.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:15 pm 
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kroeran wrote:Maybe discipline is the connector between intent, decision and action, which would be half of effectiveness
What about this.

Discipline (and derivatives) is the currency we pay the universe with in order to experience the results of our intentions.

Also, discipline can be described in terms of "taming the creature". Relations between humans always involve the creature-functions. In a dream-world, discipline does not serve this function.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Self-discipline is not so much of a big deal when what you are doing is your passion. I hope self-discipline is what you guys are actually discussing here as it just occurred to me that may be the case and not discipline based on coercion of whatever those making the rules have deemed as "normal" behavior and therefore approved having to be the case. Which one is it if either or is it something else?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Bette, I am definitely talking about discipline in the context of self-discipline and NOT in the context of disciplining another person (as in punish or force). I can't talk for Kroeran here, but I would be very surprised if he wasn't also talking about self-discipline.

Basically it's about being capable of pursueing something for more than a second until something else seemingly more interesting catches your attention. Or having the perseverance or patience to wait a little longer to be able to reap greater benefits. Like saving money for a later occasion (and even receiving some interest on it in the meantime) instead of following the first impulse of short-term satisfaction by spending it all in a shopping-spree.

But I am actually a little puzzled how you could read the other meaning into the word "discipline" in the context of this dicussion. It was never about forcing or punishing another person to reap benefits from that...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:28 pm 
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That's nice that's what you mean Tronar.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:47 am 
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bette wrote:Self-discipline is not so much of a big deal when what you are doing is your passion.


We can't only do what we have passion for. The fields have to get plowed. The hay must be baled (or whatever). You might say that discipline is a component of passion. Every single hungry (and starving) person has passion (might be the wrong word) for bread and milk, but how many well fed people do?

Even if I have passion for plowing, there are many moments which give resistance and unless they are overcome, I don't reap.

Everything seems to follow this pattern. Whatever you choose as your passion, there are components which demand discipline. You thought you liked farming, but then you were forced to deal with tractors, feed-silos, and sick animals. You thought you liked tractors, you but then you were forced to deal with bank loans, spare part suppliers, and emissions regulations.

It is impossible to escape the need for discipline.
bette wrote:I hope self-discipline is what you guys are actually discussing here as it just occurred to me that may be the case and not discipline based on coercion of whatever those making the rules have deemed as "normal" behavior and therefore approved having to be the case. Which one is it if either or is it something else?
I think I understand what you mean; the discipline it takes to adapt to the "rules" is not self-discipline? Interesting.

Self-discipline is a form of self-improvement, whereas "self-disciplined adaptation" is something else?

Hm.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:23 am 
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Yeah, self discipline

Intent, regardless of decision and action and results feeds quality at the fundamental level, so is paramount, like the example of the naive 911 suicide flyer, points for his perception of good intent of pleasing Allah and defeating the Satan America, but profound embarrassment at the NPMR cast party for being such a complete dumb ass

discipline is about making intent more effective in PMR and connecting the dots

Like, do my donation dollars actually help starving kids in Africa, and getting into it and figuring out what people actually need, and actually intervening in a way that yields results that make sense in the big picture

At some point, failure to develop discipline starts to reflect on intent and the fundamental level

for example, a disciplined person subjects impulses from the R-complex and the higher ruleset (the good angel and naughty demon that sits on each shoulder) to analysis of the left hemisphere and frontal cortex, and translates impulse to intent carefully, and once committed, developes the habit of completing commitments, as it's own end

History is the tug of war between two groups, both highly effective, but only one side with an open ear to the higher ruleset

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:25 pm 
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kroeran wrote:
bette wrote:But you aren't talking about violating rule sets Randy you are talking about violating Belief Systems BS social "norms" that aren't normal nor very social they are just dogmatic BS of bias against anything not like you.
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Bette: the tension between first order impulse and second order discipline is settled science

check this out

"Success Comes from Waiting For the Second Marshmallow

In 1972 Dr. Walter Mischel conducted some of his most famous research: The Stanford Marshmallow Experiment. Starting from his observations of his own young children, Mischel conducted his ground breaking experiment on impulse control and its relationship to a child’s success. Each child in the experiment was given the choice of one marshmallow right now or two marshmallows after a short wait. Could they postpone an immediate reward for a greater reward later? Seventy percent could not. Over the years this simple test has been done on many, many children. As the children have grown up, Mischel has realized there is a connection between how they performed on The Marshmallow Test and their subsequent academic abilities. This was the beginning of the study of delayed gratification.

The child who could wait fifteen minutes had an SAT score that was, on average, 210 points higher than that of the kid who could wait only thirty seconds.

Could YOUR CHILD do this?

Mischel argues that psychologists have focused on IQ as the determinant for academic success and have overlooked other factors. “Intelligence is largely at the mercy of self-control: even the smartest kids still need to do their homework,” he says. “Mischel’s large data set from various studies allowed him to see that children with a more accurate understanding of the workings of self-control were better able to delay gratification.” (New Yorker, “Don’t”, May 18, 2009) Recent findings by Dan Ariely published in Scientific American show that not only does self-control play a role in academics, but it also affects virtually all other aspects of successful adult life. “Individuals with lower self-control experienced negative outcomes…with greater rates of health issues like sexually transmitted infections, substance dependence, financial problems including poor credit and lack of savings, single-parent child-rearing and even crime.” The very good news… Mischel was able to help his subjects employ strategies to improve on the marshmallow test: When he and his colleagues taught children a simple set of mental tricks—such as pretending that the candy is only a picture, surrounded by an imaginary frame—he dramatically improved their self-control. The kids who hadn’t been able to wait sixty seconds could now wait fifteen minutes. “All I’ve done is given them some tips from their mental user manual,” Mischel says. “Once you realize that will power is just a matter of learning how to control your attention and thoughts, you can really begin to increase it. More very good news… Dr. Mischel says parents can help by establishing rituals that regularly force delay, like forgoing a snack before dinner. They can encourage their children to wait and make that waiting worthwhile. Helping your child develop his delayed gratification muscle might be one of the most important things you can do to contribute to academic and life success. Here are some steps you can take to build self-control (self-management) in your child:

1) Model Self-Management, Silently and Out Loud As always, children do as we do, not as we say. Actions have power. Our impulsive behaviors — work habits, diet, exercise, emotional control — are copied by our children. Verbalizing self-management while employing it shows your child in a practical way how it’s done. “I want to go for a bike ride, but I have to mow the lawn first.” Or, “I’d love to have another piece of pie but I’m going to put it away for later so it doesn’t tempt me.”

2) Practice Self-Management with Your Child Mischel taught his subjects simple mental strategies such as pretending the marshmallow is only a picture surrounded by an imaginary frame. There are lots of everyday ways to practice this. Take your child to a bakery — both of you pretend the cupcakes are plastic and the delicious aroma is a fake smell the store pumps in to trick people. Then purchase something to have later in the day. Practicing with your child will be a bonding experience that benefits both of you and strengthens your empathy for them.

3) Stand Firm on Everyday Requests Perhaps, like clockwork, your child begs for a snack ten minutes before dinner. As easy as it would be to let him/her have something (healthy or otherwise), say no but give a mental distraction until dinnertime (assuming it will be in a reasonable amount of time): “You’re stranded and starving on a deserted island with one signal flare that also happens to be edible. There’s a ship in the distance, if you can wait ten minutes, it will be close enough to see your signal when you shoot off the flare.” As kooky at that may sound, the point is that a little imagination goes a long way and in the end pays huge dividends.

4) Let Your Child Be Frustrated For a While She wants something she can’t have, and you’ve said no. She’s angry and sad. Give her some time to recover on her own. Don’t sell your child short: allow her time to build her understanding of disappointment and getting over disappointment. The ability to recover from disappointment is a valuable tool to have.

5) Encourage Self-Evaluation Have your child draw a picture as fast as he can, maybe only allowing one minute. Then have him draw the picture again while taking his time, at least fifteen minutes. Look at them together and ask your child which is better and why. Talk about what happens when a person invests time and caring into any endeavor, great or small.

6) Plant a Garden, Build from a Kit, Do a Project that Takes Time Even a small herb garden on the windowsill is a great way for a child to work on their understanding of delayed gratification. The miracle of a tiny seed to a thriving basil plant is a worthwhile project; using it in a family recipe is even better. Another shorter and possibly more exciting activity is baking a cake. It takes time (but not that much time), care, and patience, and it has a big payoff!

7) Encourage Your Child to Make a Wish List A wish list can be as exciting or as ordinary as its creator wants it to be. Frustrated kids may find it cathartic to write down what they can’t have in hope of some day getting it, but it can also be just plain fun. What does your child want, a cherry red Ferrari? Well then, write it down on a wish list. It might take a long time but there are steps to talk about that gets them from here to there. Study hard in school; go to a good college; set small step goals, etc. You don’t have to mention it, but a wish list can be the starting point for goal setting.

8 ) Play “Bank of Mom and Dad” The “Bank of Mom and Dad” has a better interest rate than a real bank and can your child the real feeling of saving money. Make an offer that, say, for every ten dollars on deposit at the Bank of M&D he keeps with you for a month, you’ll give him a dollar interest each month (you decide the appropriate payment rate). Watching the account grow may be even more rewarding than watching that basil plant. It turns out the best gift we can give to our children is nothing, or at least nothing for a little while. And during that little while? They begin their understanding of self-management, delayed gratification, and “investing” for the future."

http://richardrossiblog.com/2011/06/the ... s-in-life/

For those that want to follow up on this, see the book (2011) http://www.amazon.com/Willpower-Redisco ... 1594203075

For some overview see the NY Times Op/Ed article: http://www.amazon.com/Willpower-Redisco ... 1594203075

Interesting ideas, maybe some answers, certainly more questions.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:54 pm 
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bette wrote:Self-discipline is not so much of a big deal when what you are doing is your passion. I hope self-discipline is what you guys are actually discussing here as it just occurred to me that may be the case and not discipline based on coercion of whatever those making the rules have deemed as "normal" behavior and therefore approved having to be the case.
Man wrote:I think I understand what you mean; the discipline it takes to adapt to the "rules" is not self-discipline? Interesting.
Here J. Krishnamurti's talks about this distinction in Think on These Things, chapter 24:
Krishnamurti wrote:One of our most difficult problems is what we call discipline, and it is really very complex. You see, society feels that it must control or discipline the citizen, shape his mind according to certain religious, social, moral and economic patterns. Now is discipline necessary at all?
...
The keen athlete is disciplining himself all the time, is he not?...His discipline is not an imposition or conflict, but a natural outcome of his enjoyment of athletics.

Now does discipline increase or decrease human energy?...If discipline brings about a greater output of human energy, then it is worthwhile, then it has meaning; but if it merely suppresses human energy, it is very harmful, destructive. All of us have energy, and the question is whether that energy through discipline can be made vital, rich and abundant, or whether discipline destroys whatever energy we have.

Many human beings do not have a great deal of energy, and what little energy they have is soon smothered and destroyed by the controls, threats and taboos of their particular society with its so-called education; so they become imitative, lifeless citizens of that society. And does discipline give increased energy to the individual who has a little more to begin with? Does it make his life rich and full of vitality?
...
You see, man is energy, and if man does not seek truth, this energy becomes destructive; therefore society controls and shapes the individual, which smothers this energy. That is what has happened to the majority of grown-up people all over the world. And perhaps you have noticed another interesting and very simple fact: that the moment you really want to do something, you have the energy to do it. What happens when you are keen to play a game? You immediately have energy, have you not? And that very energy becomes the means of controlling itself, so you don't need outside discipline. In the search for reality, energy creates its own discipline. The man who is seeking reality spontaneously becomes the right kind of citizen, which is not according to the pattern of any particular society or government."
A second sense of discipline being discussed here--"stick-to-it-iveness"--is I think grown from the law of evolution. Just as we learn how to throw a basketball step by step, sticking to our practice every day, and learning across time, eventually evolving into a great free throw and then 3-point shooter, so we evolve with some drive to learn and improve upon our weaknesses. The same goes for Man's farming example:
Man wrote:We can't only do what we have passion for. The fields have to get plowed....Even if I have passion for plowing, there are many moments which give resistance and unless they are overcome, I don't reap
. One assumes here you are sticking to it for a larger purpose, e.g. fulfilling your life's dream of farming, or providing for your family. You stick-to-it because it is a law that in order to achieve that end, you must follow the steps, and some of the steps are steeper than others.

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