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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:47 pm 
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I am not dictating some kind of command nor am I advocating that people should be coerced into dealing with 'irredeemables'.

Is it really some kind of cosmic thought crime for me to even voice the view that such entities do not deserve love or respect as independent beings? I realize that it's an extremely dire thing to say but, if its true, is it really relevant whether or not more advanced beings agree with it? I was genuinely hoping for some level of philosophical criticism of what I'm saying beyond explicit appeals to authority. If that is all you have to offer on the issue then I suppose I should just shut up and move along then -_-


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:09 pm 
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No one is appealing to authority. I am simply attempting to explain the point of view aspects that you have apparently not picked up on from reading MBT. How we understand reality to function. I am not interested in a protracted intellectual debate. This is a bulletin board for the purpose of discussing and explaining the works of Tom Campbell. That is what it explains at the top of every forum. That is what you will get from me as the bulletin board administrator. If you are looking for a literary forum or moral code debating society, this is not really the place although some will perhaps engage with you on that basis. My job is simply to provide information when it is appropriate to clarify the concepts of My Big TOE and to act as administrator to prevent the hijacking of the bulletin board and keep in generally on track with the greatest value for all of the participants. You do not have to listen to what I say as long as you do not interfere with the board purpose. Tom advocates that you work out your own TOE, not be a believer in his. But that does not mean that I will not explain what Tom's TOE says about a subject that is being discussed if appropriate, i. e. someone seems to be unaware of the contents of MBT. I will certainly not tolerate someone advocating 'offing' sociopaths without pointing out clearly that it is in no way the policy of Tom Campbell nor of this bulletin board and is against the law of the land.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Quote:
I was genuinely hoping for some level of philosophical criticism of what I'm saying beyond explicit appeals to authority.
By this quote I feel you have ignored my response, quite possibly forgivable (but I feel I have to restate it), which was that they, psychopaths, exist because they are regarded as valuable. You even state yourself how it led to your evolvment. The way you say you have dealt with the situations is impressive. I interpret the 'energies' mentioned in the psychic attacks as hers and maybe her mothers own energies, possibly mingled with your fears. Likewise in the dream you mentioned. The way she said you were the one in trouble dealing with dangerous stuff, in need for change, is a typical projection. (see wiki if needed). A projection turned onto you because she was pushed to see onto her own behavior and self-destructive strategies, and you were the one who pushed her. You were her ego's devil, so to speak.

The thing is that psychopaths often are dissociative. They react and respond friendly, funny, often very intelligent and insightful, but the next time you meet them you hear they have done the opposite of what your 'silent agreements' would imply. Every advice or good information you give them seems to be turned into a tool of manipulation and self-satisfaction. It is not accidental that all "experts" on the field say that the only solution they can give victims and related is to run. Get away as soon as possible as far as possible. Well, the experts might not see the bigger picture, but they see the smaller one pretty well.


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Aku,

why do you like to be a friend with this girl? Have you ever asked yourself this question? After so many years do you still think that you would be able to change her? Does she give you adrenaline rush? Seeing what you see in her, knowing what you know about her and continue to be aquatinted with her has to have some hidden agenda for you. Ask yourself what is it, and why? Why do you have this attachment? what this attachment means to you? Have you ever tried to part with her? Or this is too difficult for you? Have you learned any lessons from this friendship? You have so much negative feelings toward this girl, what do this feelings do to you, how do they change you and your awareness, understanding of yourself and others?

Lena

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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:12 am 
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Hey guys, I'm back. I've been giving the previous posts some thought and just read over the new ones you've left for me.

I've done a bit introspection and, as far as I can tell my I had two primary motivators for befriending her:

1) Curiosity: I didn't understand the nature of the "wrongness" I initially sensed and felt the need to gain understanding

2) Compassion: I had sense that the individual I was dealing with was a person afflicted and in need of help.


I've been meditating long and hard on this issue and I've concluded that, yes, there was/is some inherent good in her (an actual soul) but that its was/is slowly being defiled and corrupted into some malign manifestation beyond any conventional understanding of the word 'evil'. As of yet, I don't know how to articulate the nature of the kind of wrongness I sensed but I'll try.

I mentioned before that I once drew a picture representing what I saw in her psyche. It was of an angel of light [I think this is what we recognize as a soul -- the innocent essence of Agape], how ever it was being cruely mutilated by it's own shadow [represented as an angel of darkness ]. The angel's shadow was blindfolded and holding and bloody dagger and standing over her in triumph. The angel of light was kneeling, her lips were stitched shut and her wings were cut off. I called it "blind justice"

In our initial confrontation I showed her this picture and desperately tried to warn her to "find her center". That eventually escalated into the spiritual confrontation I recounted earlier on this thread. There was another reverie I had in which she was a little faerie/butterfly and I was a little critter [resembling some-kind of feline or mongoose] playing with her and frolicking in an beautiful sunlit field. Then a strange dark mass began to approach from over the horizon -- something alien and overwhelmingly foul. I desperately tried to warn her to be careful -- don't fly too high our you're be caught up in it. In her innocence, she failed to heed my warning and she was pulled in and assimilated in the continuously growing horror. In the next part of the reverie, that same putrid mass then began to cover the world, consuming everything precious. In the third part I saw myself sitting cross-legged in a clearing of light, cloaked and hooded in deep meditation and the mass appeared before this circle and reared up resembling a giant putrid grey cobra poised to strike I got the impression that I would have to face off with this malign manifestation and that how I would deal with this threat would have far-reaching consequences beyond any I could imagine. I couldn't see any further than that.

The thing is, my second encounter with SW a few years later I had another image; the shadow angel from my first vision was now growing -- slashing and hacking in a maniacal frenzy and the angel was basically being, uhm, blender whipped into a grayish, seething froth. That froth then began to putrefy and grow. It metastasized, began consuming the shadow and in the process began to transform into something unspeakable. I had a hard time articulating what it was and eventually expressed it as a poem of warning. The moment I finished with it I got a text from her saying that SHE had just wrote a poem and wanted to share it with me. It was mostly incoherent but one portion spoke of "a new kind of foolishness" foretold by her great-grandmother [I honestly don't recall if it was just grandmother or some more distance female ancestor] I then read her mine. Her response was that she didn't like it because it was "too coherent". I tried to explain to her that it was a dire warning and that it was the very thing I sensed when I first met her that she should be careful and she just laughed.

"Hahahah! You can't save me, Kimani! xD"

She then told me that she wouldn't contact me again 'till sometime in 2012.


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:22 am 
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You have not convinced me that this is not an effort in creative fiction. In part the reason that you do not convince me otherwise is that you do not even try. You would not be the first to pop on and off the board with the purpose of amusing themselves, coming here when they are bored with their usual haunts. Looking for someone to interact with.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Akumanimani: “Is it really some kind of cosmic thought crime for me to even voice the view that such entities do not deserve love or respect as independent beings?”

Tom: The MBT model does not require pacifism in the face of violence being done to you. You, if all other less extreme solutions fail, may defend yourself and others who fall under your protection with whatever force is required to solve the problem. The MBT model does not require you to like or associate with or help everyone you meet within PMR. It does not require you to love and respect every PMR individual’s intent or actions (what they think, feel, and do). Given the proper PMR circumstances, you are free to defeat, disassociate from, discourage, dislike, and not respect those who are overrunning your free will, forcing you to do/accept what is substantially damaging to the consciousness evolution of the system, yourself, or others. However you may not simply overrun the free will of other PMR beings because you believe them to be in error or “not doing it right” or making poor decisions.

Loving, respecting and having compassion for all sentient beings is applied to IUOCs because we are all part of the same One consciousness struggling with our evolutionary mandate to become love. In this system, at the big picture level, negative intent driving de-evolution of IUOCs is always self-correcting or self-limiting and sometimes self-eliminating if there is no better evolutionary option. Thus, love and compassion are always appropriate at the big picture level of IUOCs. In the big picture, no one needs to destroy or eliminate these losers in the game of consciousness evolution; they eventually eliminate themselves from participation in our PMR, or if all redemption potential is lost, from participation in any virtual reality – i.e., they exist no more as sentient beings with free will – anywhere, at any time.

Generally, love and compassion flows down from the big picture to the majority of individuals trying to improve the quality of their consciousness in PMR even if they are struggling mightily and not being very successful – as long as their FWAU is here in good faith trying to grow positively. However, at the local PMR level during a single experience packet, negative intent driving de-evolution is not always self correcting, or self-limiting in material ways, or self-eliminating. Some PMR individuals are just plain nasty and hurtful to everyone all the time and see no reason to change that attitude. Though we may love, respect, and have compassion for the big picture potential of these people (assuming that there is some of that left or they wouldn’t be here), we do not have to like them, trust them, hang out with them, or love and respect what they think and do while they are here in PMR. If you find you cannot help such a person become more positive, then avoid them, get away from them, don’t deal with them. If they attack you in a way you cannot avoid, you may defend yourself with the minimum amount of force that resolves the issue.

Below is a simple little parable. It was not meant to be about you specifically, so do not take offense that it does not portray you accurately -- its intent was not to portray you at all. I do not presume to know enough to write about your intents, and motivations, but rather I hoped to provide a useful juxtaposition of concepts, attitudes and limitations of vision that you may or may not be able to find helpful. The analogy is only rough, so you will have to make any connections that might be useful to you on your own – I imply nothing. For the correct perspective pretend that the narrator is at the big picture level, perhaps AUM himself :-)

I am reminded of a moth I encountered flitting around the flame of a candle. I asked the moth "Why do you fly about the candle like that? The moth said, "I am curious about fire and I believe that I can help fix that poor candle's predicament by letting the air from my wings cool the flame.
I cautioned the moth about how easy it is to let curiosity slowly slide into obsession and that puffs of cool fresh air were more likely to fan the flame than cool it. The moth replied "Yes, yes, of course .....", as it circled the flame a little closer.
The little moths eyes suddenly brightened with epiphany as it called out to me, "I see now that this flame represents nothing but destruction. It is evil....look at it...it destroys everything it touches--there is nothing good in it". "Be careful", I said, "I think it might be best if you left that flame alone". "Perhaps", said the moth without listening to my warning and with a focused intensity beyond that of curiosity, "if I fly closer, the wind from my wings just might snuff it out".
Knowing that there was nothing else that could be said or done, I sat back in my chair to watch opportunities and lessons play out within this evolutionary dance.
I silently mouthed a little prayer for the moth as good circled evil with a plan, and evil laid its trap.


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:43 am 
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AkuManiMani:

I like Tom's parable but I would like to make an observation in it which I think doesn't apply to you. The intent of the moth and the reason it is meddling with the fire is a noble one. It is trying to save the candle, in my opinion you are not. I don't think you are in this ordeal to save really anyone, it is like you said pure "curiosity". The use of the word "curiosity" hides somehow responsibility or accountability on your behalf. That word is synonymous with "interest", "attraction", "importance", "pursuit" and many others that are a lot better in hinting or showing an aspect about yourself that may help you figure out why you have been a friend of hers in the first place and all along.

You've mentioned how you have been able to "call her tactics" as if you were skillful enough to stand on a higher ground of perspective above her... this in my opinion is the "seduction" for the "trap". What may attract you is the feeling that you are able to look down on what you perceive as an evil entity and being able to watch her plays by being several moves ahead untouched and unscathed. It is why perhaps you continue the interactions with her, if you wouldn't you would have no way whatsoever to know and gauge where you stand in relation to her. You know she is bad and negative yet you believe that you can contain her in a microscope for you to study as if she was some poisonous spider under your control.

Everything you've written so far has originated from a starting point that carries the following implicit and obvious assumption, that you are a good person. I'm not saying that you are evil but in the spectrum between white and black it is safe to say that you are not pure white. Even if your starting point is indeed from the assumption that you are a little gray, all I'm saying is that we are all probably grayer than what we think we are. It is because your starting point has this improperly calibrated self assumption about yourself that it permits you to extrapolate your ideas all the way into an end in where you see yourself qualified to explore, propose and deal a negative sentence onto what you perceive as an evil being. It is perhaps the fact that you are indeed a little grayer than what you think you are, that your thoughts therefore are easily able to compound into a dark and negative outlook for others.... in this case a perceived evil person.

Also, there is nothing in what you have said so far about SW that hints to me that you have been able to modify her, help her, change her, improve her in any way whatsoever. You found a poisonous spider and asides of being able to get close enough to study her for a while it looks like she is still a poisonous spider... but guess what? she hasn't changed and now you are really awfully close to it.

Lastly, I once met a girl like you did (not anywhere as dark and evil) but it was clear to me that her moral compass was not aligned in the same direction as mine was. I too was fascinated by aspects of her, in my case I was attracted to the social and communication skills she possessed... among them I later learned she was also able to manipulate other people in ways I never thought possible. It all starts by what she called "active listening". She was capable of having a conversation and follow along on what was explicitly said but also parallel process and read and interpret what was also not being said and was omitted by the other person. She was also observant of cues given by the body language. In addition she was also able to see/understand somehow how thoughts are built and chained together in ones head as if she could see in advance the whole tree branch of thoughts a person may be capable of navigating to reach a final idea. All of this ultimately allowed her to steer people's thoughts while having a conversation. When one is having a conversation one has to listen to the other persons reaction as a feedback to know that they are following along to what one is trying to say. What she would do was that sometimes she would introduce fake "hits" or fake "misses" that would force the person to take a different route of thought, take a different approach and sometimes even distract them altogether on something completely different. She wasn't just lying or being a sort of politician that skillfully avoids a topic. She simply escaped having to lie by preventing the other person being able to reach the truth and therefore her having to deal being confronted by it. I know this because she taught me enough to sometimes recognize it when its being done.... which coincidentally was being done to me and was the last time I talked to her.

I interacted with this girl for almost 4 months solid to the point where you could say we were dating. She knew I was really curious about her and she allowed me to probe into her life as a way of me trying to figure her out. I was feeling confident that I was going to be able to do so since she was 5 yrs younger than me. It didn't take long where I realized there were things I was able to read from her clearly due to my experience and "capacity" but there were others that not only I had never seen before, I did not even know how to make sense of them. She then warned me that her complexity was beyond my understanding. At some point it became clear that not only she was more advanced than I was but skilled in areas I did not even know existed or were even possible. I told her that I felt like an elementary kid hanging out with a high school girl and therefore sensed a potential danger because of my vulnerability by being with her. She acknowledged the potential of the danger but assured me I was safe and that she was never going to harm me. The relationship then kinda flipped and it became her then one that was teaching me. That lasted for a while and seemed promising but that soon reached a plateau, I kinda closed out, I became sorta skeptic about the whole thing, I had doubts. The last time I talked to her I was probing her life and was asking questions about her years from middle-school to college to sense the type of person she was when growing up. It was during that conversation I sensed that she was steering my thoughts in an effort that prevented me to explore and reach certain conclusions about her. I found myself caught in a loop of thoughts that ultimately lead me nowhere, I suddenly realized what she was doing to me. She was giving me false hits and she was skipping essential information about her life that I caught by having to retrace my steps back in my thought path. I felt offended that instead of explicitly telling me that she did not wan't me to explore her anymore she had resorted to such manipulative tools to keep me away. I told her that she was a bad person and that I didn't want to hang out with her anymore. She did not act surprised as if she knew that the cat was clearly out of the bag and replied "I don't want to hang out with you either". She called me a taxi-cab and I never talked to her ever again. Until this day I wonder that maybe she deliberately placed me on endless thought loop for me to catch in order for me to get offended and leave her. I feel that maybe she sensed that our relationship had reached a point of little benefit for both of us and ultimately decided to end it that way.

The reason I tell you my story is because you never know and there is also no way you can ever gauge a person that has a higher capacity than you do. Their skill lays beyond your understanding, all you can see from them will be downgraded and interpreted by you down to your own level which will lead you to a false sense of understanding them. It is clear that this SW has explicitly expressed a negative attitude towards you, it is clear that you have experienced a weird altered state under her claims which you have no understanding nor any way of explaining... don't stay to find out if she can actually harm you. Ultimately you don't know if she has been feeding you false "negatives" about herself in order to give you a false sense of security and control.


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:18 pm 
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That is taking 'active listening' as a communication improving technique into the realm of a control and manipulation technique to where the name as ordinarily used does not really apply any more. Someone, an IUOC, with extremely high functionality level might well conceal their status when incarnated here and play around with others in this way as they develop themselves and their skills to the point of achieving whatever their intended goal or purpose here is. Playing with others essentially as 'toys' for amusement. This would be a rare occurrence.

Interesting experience. Do you know anything of her continuing history?

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Quote:
I am reminded of a moth I encountered flitting around the flame of a candle. I asked the moth "Why do you fly about the candle like that? The moth said, "I am curious about fire and I believe that I can help fix that poor candle's predicament by letting the air from my wings cool the flame.
I cautioned the moth about how easy it is to let curiosity slowly slide into obsession and that puffs of cool fresh air were more likely to fan the flame than cool it. The moth replied "Yes, yes, of course .....", as it circled the flame a little closer.
The little moths eyes suddenly brightened with epiphany as it called out to me, "I see now that this flame represents nothing but destruction. It is evil....look at it...it destroys everything it touches--there is nothing good in it". "Be careful", I said, "I think it might be best if you left that flame alone". "Perhaps", said the moth without listening to my warning and with a focused intensity beyond that of curiosity, "if I fly closer, the wind from my wings just might snuff it out".
Knowing that there was nothing else that could be said or done, I sat back in my chair to watch opportunities and lessons play out within this evolutionary dance.
I silently mouthed a little prayer for the moth as good circled evil with a plan, and evil laid its trap.

Very nice parable.

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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Thank you Tom for dropping in! Very beautiful and haunting parable.

hopefully my story below is more about inspiring the opening of decision space, in the face of apparent evil, and not so much me bragging

true story couple decades ago

so, we drop by my parents in law's cottage one Sunday, the rents are away and my brother in law, wife and their infant twins are there, with a couple that I did not know.

The sister in law is run ragged making food and cleaning up and guests are lounging like a king and queen, sister in law is complaining to me in the kitchen they will not lift a finger and the brother in law tells me that this is a old acquaintence who went bad - went to prison for awhile for stealing clients investment money...

"and I don't know how to get rid of him"

well, wave a red flag in front of a bull - I had this idea at the time that I needed to occasionally exercise my courage skills, and apply force of personality and novel behavior to right wrongs

so I looked the dude in the eye and said, very calmly

"I know what you are, and you are not welcome here. Pack up your things and leave"....which he did.

felt good about it then, and still do

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Last edited by kroeran on Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Interesting experience. Do you know anything of her continuing history?
Not really, we didn't talk to each other after that night. Even though we are Facebook friends neither of us use it enough to really know what the other person is doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Clam,

It is typical that bright people, growing up (or even later), unconsciously pick up complex strategies of interaction (or thought or anything, really), and if they work well, give an advantage, to employ them even recklessly. If the woman's mom, say, was a confrontational style therapist, a shrewd saleswoman, or a tough and ruthless negotiator, the daughter may well have picked up these skills. While she may have skills at manipulation of others, she very possibly is not the package of goods that she thinks she is.

That neither adds to nor subtracts from what you said .... just offers a dimension of perspective.

In a non-sequiterish aside (which I seem to be 'guided' to add here for some reason), I have noticed repeatedly that when I meet persons who think they might have some interest in me, within five minutes they give some of the fundamental facts about who they are and where they are going. ...almost in the style of a Freudian slip. All I have to do is listen.

Montana


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Montana,
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I have noticed repeatedly that when I meet persons who think they might have some interest in me, within five minutes they give some of the fundamental facts about who they are and where they are going.
Sounds to me like a pretty normal and common bid opening to friendship.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Rats & Anti-Rats
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Ya, I didn't go into it in detail... literally, if someone thinks of himself as "an asshole" he will SAY it in those exact words, or a thief or a con artist or whatever. This is a tremendous value when doing employee interviews. ..."I took the money" instead of "I worked as a cashier there" etc etc etc. It seems to be a nearly to totally unconscious messaging event. Not everything is bad, some is just weird, but these confessed qualities are generally something that the person would not acknowledge either in their idea of themselves TO themselves, or the idea of themselves as they would like to project to others.

That was the idea.


Last edited by Montana on Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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