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 Post subject: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:13 am 
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It seems to me that some in this forum have the belief or knowing that the purpose of this PMR, since it is wild, it has much high entropy and so on, is to make us learn by various experiences in IUOC form.

This raises some questions in me. In Monroe's books (I don't remember which one) he writes that he traveled 1000 years to the future.
PMR had changed massively, if compaired to this age. He says that the plants were different, bigger. There are no cities, no roads and so on. IUOC's could choose which body to use, and move to another if wanted. When leaving the physical body, you could just leave it there at the trees. If there was no physical bodies where one wanted to travel, he was told that you could easily create a new one. He wrote something like "Oh, so humanity has finally learned".

I have gotten the impression that some believe that the way PMR works atm, is exactly how it should work, and that it will not change.

I remember reading in MTB something like "This PMR has sister dimensions, parent dimensions that evolve and some day this PMR might have a dimension child of it's own." He might have written it in a totally different way but you get the point.

Yes, living in a high entropy VR makes you learn stuff. But what if the purpose of PMR isn't to have high entropy. What if IUOC's learn other stuff in a PMR like the one Monroe visited. Not necessarily other stuff, but maybe the exact same stuff as we learn except much quicker, not as many reincarnations required.

What if we are not supposed to only lower our own entropy, but the whole of earth's. Maybe we have to lower our own in order to be able to lower earth's.
After all, isn't that what MBT is all about? If everyone would read and understand and truly know what MBT teaches, there would be no high entropy.
It just seems to me, that only lowering entropy of ourselves is a bit unloving, and unempathic. Then again, there are many dimensions and as I understand it, there will be more, always. Maybe, as Monroe called it, meeting the maker (experiencing AUO) after lowering entropy, gives you the idea of "helping mankind" as Monroe, Tom and many others did or are doing.

If there are oppressors, either E.T. or not, affecting spirits or not, shouldn't it be our responsibility as living entities in this VR to remove these oppressors. Maybe it is somebody else's job, like nonphysical entities to do that.
I am not a very experienced traveler, much of this is pure imagination. But what do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:10 am 
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Skorum,

The observation of history here and what Tom has told us about this PMR are in agreement. A lot of newcomers in terms of IUOCs near the beginnings of their development incarnate here. They inherently have a higher entropy level and lower Quality of Consciousness, thus keeping this general functional level down to kindergarten level. This PMR supposedly has a reputation for being an effective 'school' with fast, quality growth possible and all of this together leads to the understanding that it is likely to remain this way. When you have a good process delivering a quality product, why tinker with the design?

Trips long distance into the future unactualized data base and subjective interpretation combined do not necessarily mean that what Robert Monroe wrote about will in fact occur. Much that was described by the early TMI explorers did not actually occur as predicted. Predictions are limited by the view from where and when they are made. The future is a matter of probability and that is open to modification of probabilities by conscious Intent. The future is always uncertain, subject to modification or change of timing as is the present for that matter.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:18 am 
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I think you will find this historical thread, with Tom's own words about Monroe's experience of the future, very helpful: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2821&p=4311

For your question on negative entities, Tom just wrote a great post on that here:
viewtopic.php?p=49749#p49749

PMR is probably the way it is because of the way we are. It doesn't mean it can't change or won't change. Whatever is the best for entropy reduction, right?

Stay open-minded and skeptical. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:27 am 
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Hi Skor~

Welcome to the group.

"It just seems to me, that only lowering entropy of ourselves is a bit unloving, and unempathic"

Unpacking that statement may not get you answers to your questions, but it MAY get you to a neighborhood where the questions seem to have a better traction.

For instance, the question presumes the ability of people to have any degree of skill at purposefully lowering their own entropy by design.

It presumes that 'human entropy' is somehow measurable... in what way is that true?

How might I reasonably set about 'lowering someone else's entropy'? How would I determine that I was even qualified to do so?

Is it possible to love or have empathy for someone or something without composing vectors about their/its entropy?

What are the implications of doctoring others' entropy, (assuming, after all that it can be done) ?

Etc, etc. There's lots there, and lots more.

-Montana


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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:41 am 
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Last edited by Teridactal on Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Hehehee. Thanks for helping guys..
I realise I have beliefs of how entropy works.
I have always wondered why Monroes experiences differ so much with Tom's explanations.
I will read the other threads and let it sink in.

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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Some good thoughts and questions skorum. You touch on a large number of topics in your post.

It seems to me that some in this forum have the belief or knowing that the purpose of this PMR, since it is wild, it has much high entropy and so on, is to make us learn by various experiences in IUOC form.

It is part of the MBT model that this PMR is a learning lab. However, even beyond that, it makes a good deal of logical sense to me and is a concept that has been stuck in my head since I was 19 or 20. The key hint for me in thinking that this is a spiritual school house is simply observing my own experiences and the experiences of those around me. It seems to me that most (if not all of us) have what I call a compassion reflex. From what I can tell, most of us want to be nicer and more loving people (deep down inside anyway). Even "bad" people feel the tug to stop and help somebody from time to time. They may not actually stop to help, but seeing somebody in need does create internal dialog... even if it is validation for not stopping. The fact that the dialog even takes place indicates that the reflex exists. An abusive father might feel constant guilt and turmoil at his own actions. Everybody is doing their best to deal with that inner tug (some better than others).

A fire fighter friend of mine once told me that he is an atheist and that the most important thing in life is to be loyal to your family and friends. When I asked him why he has chosen a profession in which he must risk his life for complete strangers, he seemed stumped. The point is that we all seem to have a compassion reflex. When we embrace that inner tug to make more loving and compassionate choices, we feel peaceful, happy, and satisfied somehow. On the other hand, ignoring that tug tends to create inner turmoil, unhappiness, guilt, anger, etc. An obvious example of each end of the spectrum would be Gandhi as compared to a gang member in prison. They both have that inner tug, but one knows how to embrace it, while the other is still struggling to uncover that he is his own demise. This is part of the feedback system of PMR. The basic formula being: love = good, fear = bad.

This raises some questions in me. In Monroe's books (I don't remember which one) he writes that he traveled 1000 years to the future.
PMR had changed massively, if compaired to this age. He says that the plants were different, bigger. There are no cities, no roads and so on. IUOC's could choose which body to use, and move to another if wanted. When leaving the physical body, you could just leave it there at the trees. If there was no physical bodies where one wanted to travel, he was told that you could easily create a new one. He wrote something like "Oh, so humanity has finally learned".


That was a fun part of the book. It really stuck with me. It may be part of the probable future for this PMR, or perhaps Monroe was actually in some other PMR. It terms of MBT the idea is that this PMR is not currently like Monroe's description because it would not mesh well with our overall level of entropy. I believe Tom's analogy is that it would be something like letting kindergarteners play with guns. Consider Gandhi and the ganger member again. Gandhi would likely handle such a realty well; using the abilities to learn and grow. The gang member on the other hand (already struggling with the tighter rules of PMR) would likely end up abusing the looser features of such a reality. In the end, it would likely do him more harm than good.

I have gotten the impression that some believe that the way PMR works atm, is exactly how it should work, and that it will not change.


PMR exists, so logically speaking must be working in some way. That is according to the MBT model anyway. If it was deemed to be detrimental to the long term growth of the system, then it would be ended. If "something" supports the long term growth of all-that-is, then it stays. If not, then it either fades away or never exists. Change is a logical requirement for any form of evolution. PMR is not likely to stay the same forever. If it is working as is, then it will likely keep on trucking along with minor adjustments along the way. From our perspective, it looks like PMR has been the same for a long time, but I doubt that is the case from a larger perspective. Just a hunch.

I remember reading in MTB something like "This PMR has sister dimensions, parent dimensions that evolve and some day this PMR might have a dimension child of it's own." He might have written it in a totally different way but you get the point.

According to Tom, this PMR is a subset of another reality (the parent reality). There are other PMRs that exist as a subset of that same parent reality. Then there are other parent realities with other subsets of their own. So yes, that is how I understand it also. I have no personal experience to say that this is so, but it sure makes sense to me when taking all things into account.

Yes, living in a high entropy VR makes you learn stuff. But what if the purpose of PMR isn't to have high entropy. What if IUOC's learn other stuff in a PMR like the one Monroe visited. Not necessarily other stuff, but maybe the exact same stuff as we learn except much quicker, not as many reincarnations required.

The VR itself is not high entropy, the inhabitants are what give it the seemingly high level of entropy. Keep in mind that entropy is not necessarily some bad and evil thing. It just it. The kindergartener who hits one of his classmates is not necessarily bad or evil... he is just a kindergartener. Of course, from the perspective of the child who received the blow, it was no doubt a very serious matter. We can watch a kindergarten class and chuckle at the mixture of cuteness and chaos. We know that they will, at some point, grow up and no longer pick their nose, hit, steal toys, run with scissors, and walk around with food on their faces (most of them anyway). To a kindergartener, having a toy stolen is very serous and "traumatic"; it may even lead to a meltdown complete with flailing on the floor and crying. From a larger view though, we know that it is not actually a very serious matter; it is just part of what goes on in kindergarten while the kids learn some basic social skills. It seems likely that a larger view of PMR is comparable. Big oil, gangsters, natural disasters, death, suffering, cancer, greed, war, etc are very serious matters to us. How do they look from a larger perspective though? The primary point of being here is not to fix PMR, but to grow toward love as a result of being here. The kindergartener learns to be a first grader by being in kindergarten.

There is a notion that we need to hurry up and evolve... that we need to rush to some end point. Consider this though... We are already AUM at the core. There is no need to rush back to where we started from. AUM bubbles up some part of itself to gain more unique experience and help the whole system evolve (system = us)... Then that bubble bubbles some of itself up to gain more unique experience (and grow). At some point, we (as we exist now in PMR) are the last bubble in the chain of bubbles so to speak. We are the soldiers in the trenches of experience working for the good of the whole system. We are here to experience the experience of experiencing :) The very act of experiencing the process of trying to evolve through experience leads to evolution. Say all of that three times fast!

So it isn't so much that we need to become perfect. We are imperfect (aka: unique) on purpose. If imperfection was a problem, AUM would have just never bubbled us up. If we could wipe away all that makes us unique, then we would just be our "higher self", if our higher self could wipe away everything that makes it unique then it would just be AUM (or the next higher self perhaps). We might even say that it isn't so much about growing up "out" of who we currently are, but about growing up in spite of who we currently are. Ever notice how nobody is perfect around this PMR place? Nobody is supposed to be perfect here. A few perhaps come close, but they are likely here for our benefit... the 2nd grader leading the kindergarteners :). The key point is that this experience is not so much about becoming "perfect" as it is about experiencing the process of working to become "perfect" (love). We are already like AUM. We bubbled up from AUM. The point is not to rush back to being one with the whole. The point (of us) is to gain new perspectives and to face new experiences and challenges. Working to grow up and move toward love in the midst of these experiences and challenges is what causes the whole system to evolve (and again, we are that system).

That was pretty wordy. I hope it makes some sense :)

What if we are not supposed to only lower our own entropy, but the whole of earth's. Maybe we have to lower our own in order to be able to lower earth's.
After all, isn't that what MBT is all about? If everyone would read and understand and truly know what MBT teaches, there would be no high entropy.
It just seems to me, that only lowering entropy of ourselves is a bit unloving, and unempathic. Then again, there are many dimensions and as I understand it, there will be more, always. Maybe, as Monroe called it, meeting the maker (experiencing AUO) after lowering entropy, gives you the idea of "helping mankind" as Monroe, Tom and many others did or are doing.


One thing that Tom has said that really stuck with me was something roughly along the lines of this: "How do you become a good parent? Get your own head on straight; then being a good parent comes naturally." As a stay-at-home dad of 10 years, I can say that no wiser words have been spoken. I can't do much good for my kids if I am a mess. This is comparable to the notion of focusing on our own choices and entropy level. This does not mean that we should just walk past somebody that needs our help because we have meditation scheduled for 3pm. The idea of focusing on ourselves is not really about self, but about other. We can turn it into a selfish act though if we aren't careful (which of course is counter productive). Lowering our entropy, by default, encompasses being more loving, more giving, more compassionate. The goal of lowering entropy should not be about having OBE's, or doing psi phenomenon, or about knowing more about reality, or about being a more evolved being. It should primarily be about growing toward love so that our actions begin to follow suit naturally. That is a very difficult task no doubt... thus why multiple lifetimes makes a great deal of sense.

Returning to the kindergarten analogy, consider if a very nice 2nd grader was to suddenly join the class. Her awesome 2nd grader nature would be like a beacon of light for the kindergarteners. They would most likely (and naturally) begin to mimic her behavior. It would be evidence for them of sorts that being calm and patient leads to good things. She is not trying to be a second grader, she just is a second grader because she has already experience kindergarten and first grade.

One thing to keep in mind is that focusing on lowering our entropy does not mean to stop serving others. If we are passionate about helping starving children in another part of the world, or about being foster parents, or about helping people with addiction, or what have you... we should continue to do so. If we are pulled toward making music, or devising a new eco friendly car, or being a stay-at-home parent, or being a doctor... we should do that. If we follow our own unique tugs with openness and not fear or ego, then we will likely be doing something necessary for the whole without fully realizing it. Within our own unique realm of existence, there are 1,000's of opportunities to grow and to do our best to make more love-based choices. The more we grown toward love, it becomes more and more clear how best to serve other. It is a long and slow process and and end point is not relevant. The one true goal is to do our best to make our next choice be more loving.

If there are oppressors, either E.T. or not, affecting spirits or not, shouldn't it be our responsibility as living entities in this VR to remove these oppressors. Maybe it is somebody else's job, like nonphysical entities to do that.
I am not a very experienced traveler, much of this is pure imagination. But what do you think?


This falls in line with the comments above. If we are doing our best to be led by love and not fear... and we feel some tug to help re-guide or re-direct any such oppressors, then we should do that. The correct answer is relative to each of us. If we do our best to make such choices based on love and not fear, then we have done the "right" thing. There is no one thing that we all should be doing other than working on ourselves to grow toward love. My wife helps abused children and works to prevent future abuse of others. A compassionate job no doubt. Is that what we should all be doing then? What about stopping war? Feeding the hungry? Cancer? Depression/suicide? Do you see what I mean? The one true way to do the "right thing" is to focus our intent on growing toward love... and then do our best to keep fear and ego at bay while we let that love guide our next choice. What does it look like when somebody is focusing on growing toward love? What do that do for a living? Do they quit work and begin working at a soup kitchen? Do they make a documentary? Write a book? Become a nurse? It is different for each of us. We are all at different places in terms of entropy and growth. Some are here with specifics tasks laid out, some are just here for the next set of experiences. Again, the "right" thing is relative in this way and will always follow as a result of doing our best to grow toward love.

Just my humble and limited understanding.

Sorry for the long post. Hopefully there is some use in it (and not too many typos). Looks like others have already posted as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Purpose of PMR
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:01 pm 
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No need at all to excuse yourself for the long post. Just more to read, which is always interesting in this forum.
You make very good points. Thank you

Edit: I would just like to say that you about answered every single question I had there in a way I understand. You are very talented in expressing yourself in these matters (and probably just about anything else)

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