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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Lumpy wrote:
bette wrote:
Montana wrote:Truth or Schmrooth... who cares? There are better and worse models (for any particular application).
That's all.

Remember "This is really true!" are the magic words that transform a model into a belief system.

When you hear someone speaking those words, well, expect to be dealing with belief system issues.
I have always found a bit of a niggle (cognitive dissonance) with Tom having said something quite like that "this is really true" or "real" at some point in his story (in a video or maybe in person at a lecture I've been at rather than the book I think).
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Bette
You guys seem to be mixing absolute truth with regular truth. I would bet that when Tom uses it in that context that he doesn't mean absolute truth but rather truth at this point in time type of thing.
Probably not and the niggle was the Belief System aspect not the "Truth" aspect. Anything bound up in "absolute" comes from ego as I get it. There is none there is your truth and my truth and there are things that are true and then things change and that truth changes. There is fundamental REALITY though and what that is isn't fragile.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Probably not and the niggle was the Belief System aspect not the "Truth" aspect. Anything bound up in "absolute" comes from ego as I get it. There is none there is your truth and my truth and there are things that are true and then things change and that truth changes. There is fundamental REALITY though and what that is isn't fragile.
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Now I see where you are coming from. I fudged your intent :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:22 pm 
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It seems to me that there is one Truth, but that we can only interpret that truth subjectively. Consider this analogy:

We each have a pane of glass that we look through to see Truth. We can look at the one Truth, but we can only see it through our own unique pane of glass. The glass is dirtied and stained with our fears, ego, beliefs, expectations, past experiences, lack of experiences, etc. Our glass distorts, misshapes, skews, and obscures our view of Truth (this is not "bad", it just is - it is part of our work). Sometimes we can agree on seeing about the same thing or close to the same thing, but it is never really exactly the same view. We can only describe what we see though metaphors, and those metaphors must pass through the other person's glass. The way to see Truth more clearly of course is to clean our glass (work on letting go of fear, ego, beliefs, expectations, etc and through the experience of evolution).

Even after much work, our view of Truth is still through our glass and remains unique. We can never be certain if our glass is fully clean; we have nothing to compare our view to other than what we have seen through our glass in the past.

AUM likely has a very clear view of Truth (in comparison to our current view), but even AUM sees through a pane of glass (made up of all the data collected from its past experiences - including the data from our unique views).

So clean glass would compare to (or be a result of) low entropy I suppose.

Other AUM's with their own unique views? Maybe.

That is my limited and humble take on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:17 pm 
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I think there is, by definition, absolute truth.

If there were not, on what basis would non-Truth exist? A sort of randomized (can there be true randomness?), lawless environment with no underlying structure?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:43 pm 
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MojiDoji wrote:I think there is, by definition, absolute truth.

If there were not, on what basis would non-Truth exist? A sort of randomized (can there be true randomness?), lawless environment with no underlying structure?
In a way, yes. The structure would be dependent upon the fractals that make it, thus always changing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:33 pm 
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But what defines the fractals? More fractals? Is there no underlying system?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Their is absolute truth even in PMR if you don't drink you don't get drunk, If you don't get married you cant get a divorce, These simple things seem absolute. But what causes these to exist is where the existence of big truth is. It seems we walk into it when the time is right. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:01 pm 
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MojiDoji wrote:But what defines the fractals? More fractals? Is there no underlying system?
You have a point. There are probably things that define the fractals, but who says those are not fractal in nature and constantly evolving also?

I was under the impression that consciousness is a closed system though, so we could very well never know.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Lumpy wrote:
MojiDoji wrote:But what defines the fractals? More fractals? Is there no underlying system?
You have a point. There are probably things that define the fractals, but who says those are not fractal in nature and constantly evolving also?

I was under the impression that consciousness is a closed system though, so we could very well never know.
Lumpy if it was a closed system how could it grow and evolve. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Fred,

The LCS is a closed system in that it does not interact with any other system. It can grow because while it is finite, it is unbounded. There is no problem or limitation with growth.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:44 am 
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A closed system requires absolute truth in that the system defines itself. At the "top" level, we find the fundamental basis for reality - truth.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:53 am 
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Ted Vollers wrote:Fred,

The LCS is a closed system in that it does not interact with any other system. It can grow because while it is finite, it is unbounded. There is no problem or limitation with growth.

Ted
I get the first part, But don't you think the boundaries are open to expand to become more (Bigger), It kind of seems to correlate with the expanding universe. Whatever it may be expanding into. I guess the void is a good metaphor. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:09 am 
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Fred,

You must really read more carefully. That is what I said. That something is unbounded does not mean that a boundary could not be defined as an extent at any given time but that it, the boundary, is not constricting. It, the thing being referred to, is fully free to grow. Words have meanings and I use them carefully. You must equally carefully pay attention to what your and others words mean if you wish to communicate successfully. True communication is difficult enough without lack of attention to further complicate it.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:57 am 
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Ted Vollers wrote:Fred,

You must really read more carefully. That is what I said. That something is unbounded does not mean that a boundary could not be defined as an extent at any given time but that it, the boundary, is not constricting. It, the thing being referred to, is fully free to grow. Words have meanings and I use them carefully. You must equally carefully pay attention to what your and others words mean if you wish to communicate successfully. True communication is difficult enough without lack of attention to further complicate it.

Ted
You are right I have a hard time with words, I just wanted to make sure. One of the biggest things that attracted me to Toms work was his clear way of describing reality. You are right clear communication is very important. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:17 am 
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As always, I find Ted's points so well taken -- succinct and informative. So thank you Ted for all you do; I learn so much from these various discussions. And Fred, I must just tell you, I was so taken by your respectful and thoughtful reply to Ted's comments....it touched my heart, and I mean that sincerely. There is something about seeing someone open to change/personal reflection that is so encouraging in terms of seeing the potential for growth in others, as well as myself, so thank you for starting my day on such a positive note.


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