Return Home
It is currently Sun May 26, 2024 6:08 am

All times are UTC-06:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:06 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:11 am
Posts: 772
Stumbled upon this topic today. Briefly looking into the Prussian education system I am somewhat shocked as to the intent behind it and why we still use it here in the United States. I was wondering if any of you guys have studied this at all and what your thoughts are on it. It seems to me the whole point behind it was not education, but more indoctrination and training kids to conform to the status quo.

Here are some links to back ground info about the system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0795n.asp

If you know of any other good sources of information on this subject please feel free to share because this is pretty interesting to me.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:32 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
This has all been mentioned on the board before. I posted links to John Taylor Gatto and his book The Underground History of American Education http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ which goes into this in great detail. There is more to it than to be found on Wikipedia. Gatto is the guru of home schooling here in the US. Tom home schooled his children and I attempted it at the last with my oldest son. Gatto's book is available for reading for free on his web site.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:24 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:11 am
Posts: 772
Ted Vollers wrote:This has all been mentioned on the board before. I posted links to John Taylor Gatto and his book The Underground History of American Education http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ which goes into this in great detail. There is more to it than to be found on Wikipedia. Gatto is the guru of home schooling here in the US. Tom home schooled his children and I attempted it at the last with my oldest son. Gatto's book is available for reading for free on his web site.

Ted
That is funny; After I posted this and continued researching the subject I came across that book. I just got done reading the reviews before I checked back here. I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, but the reviews seem good except for the fact that the author might be a little biased in it towards his views and fails to provide sources on some of the things he mentions in the book. In general it seems like a very good read though. In defense of the author I read on one of the reviews that he added more sources on his website and some other material that wasn't provided in the book.

I wasn't aware that this has been discussed already on the boards. I remember seeing something about Tom homeschooling but must have overlooked the rest. If I ever have kids they are definitely getting home schooled after my experiences with public education in the not too distant past. I also want to eventually do something to further continue the fight for free market education in the future because the system is a joke now days and I think it has a lot to do with the decline of the country.

If there is any other books that you recommend I am all ears as well. I found this one that I am planning on getting when I have the funds, it's suppose to be pretty good. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076580 ... r_asin_lnk)


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:12 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:53 am
Posts: 2525
Ted Vollers wrote:This has all been mentioned on the board before. I posted links to John Taylor Gatto and his book The Underground History of American Education http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ which goes into this in great detail. There is more to it than to be found on Wikipedia. Gatto is the guru of home schooling here in the US. Tom home schooled his children and I attempted it at the last with my oldest son. Gatto's book is available for reading for free on his web site.

Ted
Thanks for sharing that book Ted... I'm only a couple of chapters in, but it's made of my favorite flavor: Belief-system busting!


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:20 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3510
Location: Florario/Ontorida
I expect to see TOE-schools forming at some point. Won't that be a cool school to grow up in!

Next lifetime I suppose.

"Sally, stop remote-viewing Johnny's answers!!!"

"Billy! are you OBE or just snoozing?"

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:35 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Before paying for the book you linked to Lumpy, I would read Gatto's book. Try to see if you can find the book you referenced in a library or on line in part and check it out before buying. Having recently gone through the public schools, will a book about what is commonly perceived to be wrong with them tell you much more than you already know about this? Education, when it had to be done basically for oneself and by oneself, was considered a precious thing and people valued books and learning. It was a matter of self discipline to turn ones self into a reasonably educated person. It was difficult to do and earned you respect. Education is now a matter of warehousing and control, with little self control and minimal general control. They get upset when things become lethal but not so much otherwise. Pride is expressed in getting through the process with minimal effort rather than in accomplishment and quality of learning. No child left behind seems to translate to social promotion, not seeing that each child is adequately educated for its ability and age level. What we have allowed to be done to our schools has a lot to what we have allowed to be done to our general society and our ability to compete in the world society. I learned a lot for example from the old military field manuals my father brought home out of the second WW. They use comic books as training manuals now. What does that tell you?

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:43 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:11 am
Posts: 772
@ Kroeran, That would be great!

@ Ted, I think I will read the freebee first. That is a good idea. I know what you are saying about the military manuals, the older ones are very informative. You can also find them for free online to download in a lot of places. I haven't seen the comic book ones that you mentioned but I will keep my eye open for them in the future to compare. I honestly think I have learned more by teaching myself after I got out of school than when I was in, and most of the stuff I was suppose to learn in school I have/had to re-learn because it didn't stick. The teachers were somewhat of a problem, but from my experience it is the environment that is causing the problems. Schools are like prisons now. It's like trying to get a kid to want to learn right after you ground him/her, it is really hard to because they resent that they are grounded and don't want to learn. My little brothers are in elementary school right now and I can already tell I am going to have to teach them myself on top of them going to public school, and will have to stay on top of what they are learning to counter act the propaganda. They barely know anything yet and they are 7 and 8.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:17 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3510
Location: Florario/Ontorida
a large part of "education" is learning to sit still and take orders, basically, just how much are you willing to abuse your inner reptile for another reward pellet (grades, salary). Not saying this is a bad thing.

it is excellent preparation for heirarchical work environments, which tend to be very efficient, not only for finding profitable markets, but as well, for providing an intense interactive environment in which to practice your TOEish arts.

you may try to escape this PMR feedback through self-employment, or marrying rich, or going off grid, but you may be cheating yourself out of character-forming opportunities.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:22 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
kroeran wrote:a large part of "education" is learning to sit still and take orders, basically, just how much are you willing to abuse your inner reptile for another reward pellet (grades, salary). Not saying this is a bad thing.

it is excellent preparation for heirarchical work environments, which tend to be very efficient, not only for finding profitable markets, but as well, for providing an intense interactive environment in which to practice your TOEish arts.

you may try to escape this PMR feedback through self-employment, or marrying rich, or going off grid, but you may be cheating yourself out of character-forming opportunities.
Characters formed through your limited limiting Fear based patriarchal BS Reality are the problem Randy. Back to ignore...
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:38 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:11 am
Posts: 772
I also disagree with you, Kroeran. Who says there wouldn't be some type of hierarchy in other education systems that could be healthier than the prison style ones we have now? Hierarchy is a natural occurrence, it isn't going away anytime soon, school or no school.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:38 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3510
Location: Florario/Ontorida
the main point to consider is that the pain of school is there to partially prepare you for the pain of the working world

part of it is to develop your capacity for taking direction, linear thinking, attention to detail, tolerating bullpucky

part of it is to certify your capacity for taking direction, linear thinking, attention to detail, tolerating bullpucky

an egoless FWAU with high impulse control, will find this process to be less painful, the school part as well as the career part

mentoring from someone familiar about how heirarchies work, developing some effectiveness in this regard, increases the potential for pain avoidance further, rather than relying on absolute trial and error

with a sufficiently (Quality of Consciousness-driven) wide decision space, a low entropy FWAU may perceive a position of relative comfort to maneuver toward in the PMR system.

any environment thick with FWAUs provides lots of opportunities for applying MBTOE

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:15 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 3510
Location: Florario/Ontorida
bette wrote:Characters formed through your limited limiting Fear based patriarchal BS Reality are the problem Randy. Back to ignore...
Love
Bette
spent most of my time under matriarchal structures, which likely turned out to be a tactical error.

one part of effectiveness in organizations is figuring out which units or divisions are dominated by which sociological groups, and avoiding groups dominated by individuals different than you are.

for example, to some extent, women like to promote women, and men like to promote men, its just human nature - test for this in your environment and consider this data in your tactics.

I do realise that only very few are sufficiently open and skeptical to make use of such an assertion, but there it is.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:43 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Working doesn't have to be painful and school shouldn't be a prison. It doesn't need to keep being like this. You've just rolled over Randy.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:09 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:18 pm
Posts: 284
I don't have much experience with painful schooling, nor did I ever have the feeling of being indoctrinated, but if that was the goal of our educational system, it wasn't very effective. I do wonder, given Bette's comments, how an alternative system might be different. Home schooling seems lonely to me, but I had a delightful experience in public schools.


Top
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:35 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:53 am
Posts: 2525
Well, no matter what models we bring ready to apply to this bundle of issues, the book Ted cited above is definitely worth a visit both because the writer has done a HELL of a lot more thinking about it than any of us has, and also because it appears to be (haven't read the whole thing yet) a good example of breaking out of a belief system structure by noticing things aren't what they might be, paying attention to what is actually going on experientially, and searching for bet models.

There are probably many examples of this in different fields out there, some of which have met with success, and others not.

Another book coming to mind at the moment is Betty Friedan's "Feminine Mystique": she opens, as I recall, with a plaintive narrative that expresses an existential level of alienation fairly well. Trying to get a grasp on it, she comes to suppose to it comes from being stuck in social categories that are stifling .... blaming it mostly on sexism (here she came a little bit short though .... there are other reasons.... men were feeling the same sort of stifling alienation, albeit not so much.

I will think of others (books/writers) later probably, after I have signed off. But maybe some other boardies can cite instances of literature where people stir to awareness, stretch or move beyond certain belief systems, grow, and 'rock the boat'.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 Next

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited