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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Thoughts proceed action. If the origin of our thoughts is external to us then we do not have free will. This at least true in PMR. I am standing firm by this conclusion.

I cannot speak for how things work in NPMR, Tom is the expert on that subject. I think Ted has been confusing the issue a little describing how information moves from NPMR to PMR, which is not a refutation of my simple argument above.

I have skimmed the wiki. I haven't read it closely enough to fully grasp the nature of free will according to MBT, though I plan on it. I am pretty lazy when I login here.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Advaita, I realize you want people to think like you, but it seems people on this forum are comfortable with accepting they are free to choose, It seems you are trying to prove it to yourself. Whoever is choosing for you just try and relax and enjoy the ride. Fred searching for truth


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Advaita,

I am not arguing with you in the sense of I say one thing and you say another. You are misunderstanding Tom's description of how reality is formed and functions. This is revealed in how you state this previous post.
If the origin of our thoughts is external to us then we do not have free will. This at least true in PMR. I am standing firm by this conclusion.
This betrays a misunderstanding in a major way. The origin of our thoughts is not at all external to us as we truly are. What we are is IUOCs. The question of internal and external to 'us' is a conventional PMR thought pattern. As IUOUCs, we receive a digital data flow over the RWW prepared for us by TBC that represents our PMR experience. There is an interchange of data between ourselves and TBC which proceeds at a fantastically fast rate and contains a great deal of our thoughts. Of those 'thoughts' originating with us as an IUOC and sent to TBC as part of our choices, a selection is made that is returned to us as our internal thought stream. It can only be a representative selection because of the slow speed of our perceptions in our PMR experience in comparison to the speed of our thinking as an IUOC which is as fast as the LCS at its base as that is where we exist as digital consciousnesses.

As IUOCs we function for most of the time as a part of AUM, participating in that great flow of data and contributing our small share, whatever it may be, to the consciousness and functioning of AUM. Of this we are not conscious. Out of many cycles, delta ts, of this very high digital cycling rate, one cycle is periodically selected out as our IUOCs participation within the NPMR VR. This cycle, added to all of the other NPMR related cycles creates our NPMR experience in which our IUOC is our real self experiencing NPMR. Thus our IUOC is mostly a part of AUM, in terms of cycles of functioning where we are not individually conscious. Then as we are describing now, our IUOC is our real self experiencing NPMR interspersed amongst all of those cycles functioning as part of AUM but unaware of it. This is a gift of consciousness to us by AUM. The gift of consciousness and in a very real sense, the gift of existence. While our digital code as an IUOC exists at all times within AUM, it is not then aware of anything. It is part of what creates the awareness of AUM, but it cannot experience the real consciousness of AUM in even the least way. It is simply and totally beyond us and our comprehension.

Out of every block of many cycles of NPMR functioning, one of the core cycles of our IUOCs functioning deals with our PMR participation. Not that a cycle is taken away from our NPMR cycles but that interspersed, coming after many NPMR devoted cycles and all of the vastly many AUM devoted cycles interspersed between them, comes one cycle devoted to our PMR participation. All of these intermittent PMR devoted cycles creates our PMR experience. Again, our IUOC is our real self as the experiencer of this PMR data stream. Within our PMR experience, TBC must provide the simulation of the whole physicality of PMR, all of the scenery, and also the appearance of our bodies and the bodies of all those others that we interact with. It provides us with our bodily senses. And as I have explained, because our true self as an IUOC functions at the same super fast cycling rate as the base LCS of which we are part, we here in PMR cannot comprehend all of our thinking that goes into making our decisions as we go along exercising our free will. We, as the physical PMR beings that are simulated in the PMR experience simply cannot sense and think at that rate. So The Big Computer must select for us out of all of that thought stream the small part that represents the most important point within the total. Nothing is thinking or deciding for us. We do the thinking and deciding. I just hope I have finally put together the right string of words for you to understand this.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:15 am 
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Thank you, Ted.

I won't offer my opinions in detail about what you wrote because I don't particularly feel like debating this issue into infinite and you have already been very gracious with your responses. I will say that I stand by my conclusions and I understand the point you made about one's IUOC being the real self, my personal view is not at odds with that point, it is simply a matter of perspective or magnification, so to speak. It all depends on how one likes to look at it, either from the narrow PMR perspective or the big picture.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:57 am 
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Ad: " If the origin of our thoughts is external to us then we do not have free will. This at least true in PMR. I am standing firm by this conclusion. "

I wondered about that too: The origin of our thoughts is external? How was that determined?

If that is true, whence my current wonderment????? : Who has done this wondering for me and planted it in my head???


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:10 pm 
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Calling Ted narrow minded it not nice, And looking at things through the constraints of PM is the only way we can look at freewill or anything else, including the big picture. This is another characteristic of our freedom to choose. Sometimes we all choose to fool ourselves and that seems to be part of the game too. Fred searching for truth


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Montana wrote:Ad: " If the origin of our thoughts is external to us then we do not have free will. This at least true in PMR. I am standing firm by this conclusion. "

I wondered about that too: The origin of our thoughts is external? How was that determined?

If that is true, whence my current wonderment????? : Who has done this wondering for me and planted it in my head???
The source of the wonderment is not you (as an FWAU). You only feel the wonderment. You didn't cause it.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:44 pm 
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fast-

I did not call Ted narrow-minded. That insult would apply, instead, to others.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Sometimes we choose to project things onto others that are true of ourselves. that is another characteristic of freewill. Fred searching for truth


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Advaita wrote:Because we are not the authors of our thoughts. An individual's stream of consciousness simply occurs to him/her.
"We", in the context of MBT, are by definition the authors of our thoughts. How long the meta-physical cord is between the person and the consciousness doesn't matter and consciousness is never observable as a "thing".

We are also quite badly limited in our "thought-space" - I can't read your mind, easily, for example.

I think free will is limited beyond the notion of decision space. For example, I can build bombs and blow up buildings, but I don't I would be permitted. I think those sort of things are permitted to an extent for certain reasons.

We can't choose when to die or when to be born.
Advaita wrote:What does it mean that you could have acted differently? What is the magic variable that could have made you choose differently?
In MBT, this is QoC.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:21 pm 
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"Serendipity" occurs and changes the lives of people. Sometimes there is a will other than our own influencing things.

Our free will is basicly limited to the available tests for possible developments for our individual QoC. Life is about as difficult for all people, because the decisions we have to make are tailored to our abilities. Maybe. I'm not sure.

Decision space is theoretically bigger than this. There are many things I can decide to do, but that I feel are pointless. Someone else might want to try them, but can't.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:17 pm 
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I had a small epiphany today. I suppose free will can exist if MBT is true. Basically because MBT supposes that consciousness is fundamental and because uncertainty exists at our level of reality according to MBT. However, from the more conventional scientific view it is impossible to think that free will exists. So, if you think this conclusion was obvious all along you are wrong. Even from an MBT standpoint it is not very easy understanding how the virtual PMR brain could seem to generate consciousness without actually being the source of consciousness. I am still not totally clear on that. I guess the PMR brain is like a symbol for functions related to the IUOC?


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Man wrote: "We", in the context of MBT, are by definition the authors of our thoughts.
This is the point I was sort of missing. According to MBT we must be the 'authors', in a sense, of our own thoughts because consciousness is fundamental. Uncertainty at our level of reality requires that we be conscious and therefore make decisions here. I was too lost in conventional thinking on this question to realize that.


Last edited by Advaita on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:52 pm 
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I was going to chime in on this, but it looks like some good stuff has happened.

Well, I'll go ahead and chime in anyway:

Free will is a logical necessity in a consciousness system - subsystems can also have free will for the same reason (and under the same conditions) as the larger system. It is a difficult concept to understand in a bottom-up causality, but trivial if consciousness is fundamental. What makes it a particular confusing concept are the number of connotations for consciousness - the idea that something can generate consciousness is an entrainment of the meme that consciousness = perception/awareness. Our consciousness is not generated - it is individuated; a subtle, but profound distinction.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Nicely, almost musically, said, Moj~

-Montana


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