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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:40 pm 
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What structure in society is best for all? A socialistic system run by a state with high taxes or a liberal approach with maximum freedom and minimal state control?

I dont think I've heard Tom talk about this, but I know Tom sometimes talks about Lao Tzu and he seems to be against statism. Here are some qoutes from Lao Tzu:
The more restrictions and limitations there are, the more impoverished men will be...
The more rules and precepts are enforced, the more bandits and crooks will be produced. Hence, we have the words of the wise (the sage or ruler):
Through my non-action, men are spontaneously transformed.
Through my quiescence, men spontaneously become tranquil.
Through my non-interference, men spontaneously increase their wealth.
People suffer from famine because of the multitude of taxes consumed by their superiors.
People are difficult to govern because of the (excessive) agency of their superiors. It is through this that they are difficult to govern.
The people starve because those above them eat to much tax-grain. That is the only reason why they starve.
I think Tom is for as much freedom as possible. Governments are trying to control the masses, but I think Tom has said that "the more control you try to get the less control you get".

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:15 pm 
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What structure in society is best for all?
Considering no one person/s can know what's best for all, I am more in favor of bottom up. Top down could work just as well if it was completely voluntary, but it never really works out like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Perhaps Tom enjoys the anti-authoritarian stance of Laozi who is probably mythical I have found. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:50 pm 
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The fundamental problem is human entropy.

In free markets, where employees are free to change jobs, customers are free to choose who they buy from, bad behavior on the part of companies eventually attracts negative material feedback and consequences, generally speaking.

In coercive structures, where unaccountable bureaucrats make decisions on what happens when, by who, with the power of the state, there is no feedback mechanism to constrain the entropic humans within from making decisions that serve the bureaucrats themselves, rather than thier clients. Programs will be maintained, even when the program begins to damage the client, to protect the institutions power.

Competition and personal freedom is the only system that more or less works when you have a population with a diverse range from quality to entropy.

Problems do arise, and the engagement of low entropy and high efficiency individuals is essential to keep the weaknesses of democratic capitalism from getting out of control.

There is a film from 20 years ago, it was set in a British university...there was a line...

"communism was such a beautiful idea...and it is sad that it turned out to be untrue"

Top down, and absolute top down is communism, almost always means the worst bully working his way to the top...the idea that a wise and gentle dictator will set things up properly is a delusion, utopian thinking.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:18 am 
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Tom talks about it to some degree in the forum get together video:

http://youtu.be/XJI68YgN7TY

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:27 pm 
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kroeran wrote:The fundamental problem is human entropy.

In free markets, where employees are free to change jobs, customers are free to choose who they buy from, bad behavior on the part of companies eventually attracts negative material feedback and consequences, generally speaking.

In coercive structures, where unaccountable bureaucrats make decisions on what happens when, by who, with the power of the state, there is no feedback mechanism to constrain the entropic humans within from making decisions that serve the bureaucrats themselves, rather than thier clients. Programs will be maintained, even when the program begins to damage the client, to protect the institutions power.

Competition and personal freedom is the only system that more or less works when you have a population with a diverse range from quality to entropy.

Problems do arise, and the engagement of low entropy and high efficiency individuals is essential to keep the weaknesses of democratic capitalism from getting out of control.

There is a film from 20 years ago, it was set in a British university...there was a line...

"communism was such a beautiful idea...and it is sad that it turned out to be untrue"

Top down, and absolute top down is communism, almost always means the worst bully working his way to the top...the idea that a wise and gentle dictator will set things up properly is a delusion, utopian thinking.
Thanks, that helped. I think Tom would agree with you.

Persons with high entropy seeks powerful positions in government because they want power and feel they are superior in some way. Persons with low entropy generally don't want to control anything, therefore they wont be the ones at the top. There are no gentle dictators.


Last edited by yxltvp on Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Justin wrote:Tom talks about it to some degree in the forum get together video:

http://youtu.be/XJI68YgN7TY
Thank you very much


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:20 pm 
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yxltvp,

Might you not want to edit this post above:
Persons with low entropy seeks powerful positions in government because they want power and feel they are superior in some way. Persons with low entropy generally don't want to control anything, therefore they wont be the ones at the top. There are no gentle dictators.
In NPMR, there is no voting. The Big Cheese is appointed, not elected. It might be characterized as a benign dictatorship. This is Tom's description of the situation. You can search on the BB for Big Cheese with twcjr as the author but I did not see anything particularly useful in those posts in this context. You might go to My Big TOE on the Internet and search for Big Cheese and find a description of the governing hierarchy of NPMR written up there, somewhere.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Back to the original question:

A mixture of both, in the amounts that make the most sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:37 am 
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Would be nice to have a choice to leave society but it seems over here in the UK the land has been snatched up and our queen feels She is caretaker whilst the Savior is on leave.

I like the freeman idea, living in honor and keeping to common law.

Stuck in 4 walls doesn't feel natural to me and it seems like society is a little toxic for my liking.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:51 pm 
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na


Last edited by Delak on Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:28 pm 
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What if everything, in all PMR's, is already perfect and getting more efficient at it's own rate?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Remember that the Consciousness System is a real and not an ideal system. As Tom describes it, and observations match Tom's insight, perfection is not what is being sought. It is rather the principle of evolution applied in terms of try everything and sort out what absolutely does not work, i.e. is evolutionarily a failure. Then incrementally refine what remains. It is a system where good enough to be getting on with is accepted. Then you evolve incrementally from there. You don't mess with success. You don't punch out cookie cutter VRs any more than you pick some model of an IUOC as perfection and just copy that as a replacement for everyone. Another way to state it is that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Variety is sought and discoveries are anticipated. If you don't like your neighbors, then opt for another VR next time. But you will have to wait until it is your turn again. That and convince your guidance that you are ready for where ever you wish to enroll next. That you are the solution to the problem and not the source of it and that you are not right where you should be.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:01 am 
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Martin wrote:Would be nice to have a choice to leave society but it seems over here in the UK the land has been snatched up and our queen feels She is caretaker whilst the Savior is on leave.

I like the freeman idea, living in honor and keeping to common law.

Stuck in 4 walls doesn't feel natural to me and it seems like society is a little toxic for my liking.
Decision space is much wider in the Americas, and emigrating from Europe is within your decision space. In Canada there are many opportunities to have professions or well paid trades, and live within an hour of a home in the near or absolute wilderness, keep some goats, sheep or cattle, a garden. Like anything, there are always 100 tradeoffs and things to complain about, and I hear these complaints from colleagues (some emigrants) and relatives who actually live that lifestyle.

I have one Canadian relative who went the other way, and adores the culture and intensity of a European urban centre and bathrooms the size of phonebooths. Another lens to consider is that living within 4 walls means FWAUian intensity, and lots of FWAUs to interact with, accelerating your learning experience. When I am in a prairie landscape or on a wilderness lake, my only thought is..."where is everybody?" and it feels lonely.

You may be leaning into utopian thinking though...society is established on the basis of a wide range of entropy, with the rules and enforcement set up in particular for the high entropy crowd who do not naturally act nice or cooperatively...

the sort of dudes that are ready volunteer for novel societal arrangements generally come from the mosh pit of confused spiritual seekers (that would include me in my twenties). Case in point, most are unaware that America was initially established under an economically communistic arrangement, absent the necessary ingredient of coercion to make that work for more than 5 seconds, with the predictable result of starvation and relying on handouts from the Indians to get through the first winters, if I am remembering the story correctly. Once property rights were established and the principle of you eat what you sow and grow, things became more sustainable. [the exact details of this part of history may likely be clarified, but the point remains]

A study of non-British royalty might increase your respect for the relative syntropy of the British Royalty line, and its role in building civilization these last 500 years. Although it is not quite clear why, United Kingdom culture appears to be the seed of most that is organized or geo-politically syntropic on the planet. That being said, Europe does retain some legacy elements from the feudal system, being feudal and then adapted to capitalistic democracy, whereas the Americas, were more or less established with a clean populist slate to begin with. Of course, there are a hundred layers of the onion to peel in this regard.

The bottom line here is to open up perceived decision space, not only regarding moving to different environments, but as well, to shift to a TOEian perspective, which might make your current physical situation look much more spiritually profitable than your current view. It is very important in life to actually try out things you imagine, in order to start sorting through what is fantasy and what is real, and establish these things clearly in your mind while you still have youthful decision space to exploit.

Figuring certain things out when you are 40, divorced with 2 kids and in a dead end job, is very different than figuring things out when you are 25 and have all your options open. It is normal to be profoundly confused up to age 25, but confusion beyond this age starts to have severe consequences, but as with anything, intensive learning at the fundamental level. Key is how much fundamental learning you can handle or want.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:30 am 
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Delak wrote:I see a that: The more fear full one becomes he falls of balanced point and converges to either Extremities.
Communism,Socialist,Anark. Can not accept (fear) Suffering. They have in the worst sence defined the Point to existence. to limit suffering for all. To do so you have to controll every one.
Force entropic people to appear good, by limiting choice range.

Captilism. Can not accept in the extreme tea party sence. Can not accept (fear) not haveing as much stuff as they want. THey have defined the point of existence is to work hard and get stuff. If you dont its your fault.
It Lets Entropic People Exploit.

In a situation where every one was Low entroptopic. It would be a freefor all and exploting would not very much take place. No need to walk to the bathroom in a single file line in college.
Like has been said. Creating a Force system. then letting the most power hunger kid of the kids run it, doesn't work.

The best case. Is probably a Captilst system, taylored and tactifually tuned. to limit exploitation. Not sure how humans can go about that process. Probably a challange from the level up.

The Level up. Probably like all the options in a free system. Different people grow best in a plethra of situations. Also allows the bad shit in people to come out, lets people be who they are, has to be delt with. Lots of learning situations.
Plus the explotiation can be mitigated as best as possible.
yes, there appear to be extremes on each side of the political pendulum, based on high entropy hatred, that find a home in the extreme wings of the American tea party or ACORN type movements, and each country has their version. Each generation or culture creates such ecologies as outlets for each mindset.

Care needs to be taken to assess what is core to a particular movement, and what is fringe, and how is the data being filtered between what is actually going on, and your mind. Having lunch with a Tea Party member is a very different datastream than reading about the Tea Party through European media.

nearer the purple centre, there is the necessary PMRian creative tension between heart and head, and most countries of the west are struggling between initially well intent-ioned policies and programs, and PMR reality/financial sustainability, the latter which is more than a political slogan. Western socialised capitalism is a beta test that has not yet played out. What is really going on is confused by political games on the fringes, and possibly at the centre, such as the Norquist maneuver that Ted has drawn attention to.

Once the core system is established, then you look at market failures and unacceptable social outcomes, crafting regulations and social programs that are science based, rather than shoot from the hip heart based policies that don't actually incorporate the data or settled social science, or that actually harm the target of the program through moral hazard.

Unfortunately, the west is collectively looking more like the cousin we all have who is maxed on their credit cards and cannot think past the next vacation, and China is starting to look like the responsible designated driver of the planet, in this limited but significant respect.

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