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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:14 am 
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thanks for the vote of confidence, ted:) unfortunately, i'm not sure if i am cut out for that sort of thing ...maybe in another lifetime:)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Pondini,

That reminds me of something Mark Twain said once.

"But my dream-artist can draw anything, and do it perfectly; he can paint with all the colors and all the shades, and do it with delicacy and truth; he can place before me vivid images of palaces, cities, hamlets, hovels, mountains, valleys, lakes, skies, glowing in sunlight or moonlight, or veiled in driving gusts of snow or rain, and he can set before me people who are intensely alive, and who feel, and express their feelings in their faces, and who also talk and laugh, sing and swear. And when I wake I can shut my eyes and bring back those people, and the scenery and the buildings; and not only in general view, but often in nice detail."

This is from "My Platonic Sweetheart" which in itself a FASCINATING read. One could draw many conclusions as to what he was really experiencing. He was in the habit of writing down his dreams in a dream notebook which is still recommended today for increasing dream recall and nonphysical awareness. Here's the link:

http://www.searchwithin.org/download/my ... theart.pdf

Ramon


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Jeff wrote:pondini,
Epic! I have those types every now and then too. What amazes me to no end is the planning,production,script writing,scenery,effects,etc,that must go on 'behind the scenes' for something like this!!?? What you described could be a hollywood movie like Ted said....

I'm currently reading "Divided Consciousness:Multiple Controls in Human Thought and Action" by Ernest Hilgard. It covers a phenomenon known as "The Hidden Observer" in hypnotic laboratory studies. According to his data,some highly creative writers and people skilled at visualizing stories ,in which subconscious creative details unfold to become known to the conscious mind only as they progress in cooperation together,turn out to be among the 'highly hypnotizable.'

They can be hypnotized in a way so that the "hidden observer" becomes prominent. One subject revealed the hidden observer to be the part of him "doing the planning....like a stage director providing the promptings for the hypnotized part,the actor."-page 198 The ego knows the general outline ,can make predictions and apply will ;while the dissociated 'hidden' part fills in the details plus knows the ego's role-alot like the higher self thing...Often it knows the ego but the ego does not know it.

I really believe this is the case for dreams,lucid dreams and OBEs in NPMR too.Sometimes in dreams we have this third person perspective ,or camera view, in which the ego-self becomes enfolded.For me,there is sometimes a sense of cooperation with something behind the scenes;and in other instances 'I' am just an observer-like someone is playing a movie-DVD for me.
[I sometimes I wonder if this like being a child plopped in front of a TV to be entertained while the parent ( greater 'dissociated' aspect of intelligence) has stuff to do ??]

Do you find this to be the case too? Have you ever tried communication with your hidden aspect in NPMR?

A recent unexpected experience:
I had a recent lucid dream in which my lucid ego awareness briefly merged with the director.I was going about my business when I suddenly sank through the floor. Then 'I' was watching a dream scene play out between two characters.I felt an expanded sense of influence and consciousness in addition to my lucid awareness so I willed one character to trip and fall-a moment later he did. ( I didn't have a dreambody at this moment) I started to feel uncomfortable,alittle insane to be honest,and started to worry about losing my lucidity.Then I suddenly was granted a dreambody again and raised back up through the floor to the old scene the way I had come and continued the LD.
jeff, yours is a very interesting experience. i've not had one like it, but i can understand how merging with your sub-conscience could make you feel a little fearful or insane:P a good question for the more experienced members of this board might be 'does this type of merging become commonplace as i progress down this Big T.O.E. path?'

there is a really good book by Jeff Warren called The Head Trip; leaning more towards the scientific explanations of dreams, LDs, OOBE, meditative states, etc, it covers each pretty well (he did his homework) and he provides the metaphysical POV for each topic, although less proportionally. anyhow, he points out what reads as a widely agreed upon explanation for one aspect of dreams...

quote:
"Freud’s central insight, says Nielsen, “is that if you link together
the memory associations behind the manifest images, one or more other narratives
start to emerge. And these often have to do with the emotional similarities between
the links. Nobody that I know of has proved this wrong.” This was certainly borne
out by my own experience in the Watch, where emotional connections between
memories were the most obvious thing going."

i agree that my dream conforms with the above definition, but it also conforms to the theory of tests or lessons. the formula above is just a different way of saying it -sort of like preferring the term 'climate change' over 'global warming'. at any rate, i find important lessons in nearly all my dreams.

i think you touched on an important point with your 'stage director' analogy. i have considered this too. i started to consider your stage director after noticing a few clues in my dreams; typically my dream-tests start with me knowing a certain amount of information that specifically drives the action in what sometimes seems to be a preselected way (i recall msagansk saying something similar in another thread); i'm not implying there's no freewill, just that the knowledge i possess helps frame the story and pushes me directly towards the important choices i need to make and realize. more importantly, i have noticed things that i consider to be oversights or overlooked details... here's an example:
at the start of the dream i might dislike a dream character, but at the moment i choose to dislike him i will be implanted with fake knowledge indicating something bogus like 'oh, that's right, he returned my lost wallet that one time! i guess he is a good guy'. once the dream is over i realize that he had to be a good guy in order for me to realize and make the important choice(s). the dream couldn't have played itself out correctly had the oversight not been fixed. to me, that seems like some 'on the fly' editing:P


ramon, thanks for the link, i will check it out. i am of the opinion that a lot of creative people use the dream state to harvest ideas. in my opinion, Philip K. Dick's best books were based on his metaphysical experiences. also, here is proof that Mark Twain wasn't the only one milking his dreams for ideas:
"Thomas Edison used Stage 1 of the natural sleep cycle to come up with creative ideas for new inventions. He would take a cat-nap in a chair with steel balls in his hands and, as he drifted off and relaxed, the balls would drop onto steel plates on either side of him, waking him and more often than not he'd have a new idea for research."


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Very interesting pondini,
No doubt that emotion plays a role in the associative and dissociative memory links.My current reading material supports this anyway. One interesting fact I've found is that some people with multiple personality disorder actually have 'sub' personalities that are more functional and well adapted than the main one.The author suggests that this evidence supports dissociation theories over repression theories. Supposedly,many subjective reports also favor 'vertical' amnesic barriers; rather than horizontal ones when it comes to associations and recall.

I really like your idea of 'editing on the fly'. I had not considered this idea at all..Hmmmm. I'm glad you mentioned this.This is also related to the ideas of "faulty logic" and "false remembrances" that these videos talk about,you might like them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TVOLB8sTu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QrxPdhc ... re=related

This is the stuff that also leads me to believe that we have multiple selves in multiple (dream) worlds,each with a consistent history,memory and logic.My own personal armchair little toe is that Lucidity is an integration of the waking self's memory chain with other dream selves ,mediated by some unifying level like the higher self,over-soul,LCS,AUM,etc.....the stuff MBT models.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:22 am 
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This really is an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, Targobaath.

When reading all those test situations here, I thought, well I've had all kinds of dreams, but none I would consider a test like those ones. But since I am keeping a dream journal for some time now and my curiosity nagged me to go through it again and look for something that might qualify as a test. Weird enough, by reading the journal I could still remember some of the dreams by reading the first line while others seemed to be written down by someone else, because at first I had no recollection whatsoever that I ever dreamt those dreams until I had read most of the "story".

And to my surprise, I found a dream where I had already asked myself at the time writing down the dream, if this had been some kind of test. It was a very short one (at least as far as my recollection goes):

I can't remember much of how I came into this situation or in which location exactly I was in my dream, but I dreamt that right in the middle of a normal day I was suddenly able to see some kind of ghost appearance. It looked like some whitish, semi-transparent streaks trying to form themselves into something right in front of me.

At that point several things and thoughts kind of occured at the same time:

One layer of myself (or my personality or consciousness?) was quite happy about this perception thinking "Yay, finally I am able to see some supernatural stuff!"
While another layer of myself started to scream at the top of my lungs out of sheer panic. It felt somewhat as if this outcry was using the momentum of something that had wanted to shout before.

And then weird enough a third layer thought (while I was still shouting): "Great, if this was supposed to be some kind of test whether I still respond with fear towards perceiving something paranormal, then I have just failed miserably.

Next thing I know is, I am lying in my bed awake still feeling some remnants of my desire to scream.

Still thinking about this dream, I am wondering about the nature of the fear, because it didn't feel as if I was threatened for my life like being chased by a monster or seeing a giant wave coming towards me. Yet, there was some basic desire (like an instinct) to just scream out of angst.
I am also wondering, why this felt like three things happening parallel. My initial response had been positive, then came the negative instinctive reaction and all the while I was still able to intellectually analyze the situation and consider the possibility of this being a test including the conclusion that I most likely just failed.

Do you also think that this might have been a test, or was it just another dream? I am curious about your opinions.

Tronar

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:58 am 
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Oh, I missed this thread, so I posted my own "learning dream" in a new thread.
So here is the link to my experience:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6687

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:36 pm 
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I really quite enjoy reflecting on the tests I seem to be presented with.

In my dreams recently I can think of three.

The first was set in what I felt to be some sort of 'prison-dimension'. I was trapped there with strangers and my family. The only way out was to try and pass through this 'Gate'. The 'Gate', however, would destroy whoever is unprepared/not powerful enough. My family had resolved to pass through the 'Gate'. I was afraid of passing through, although on the other side lay potential enlightenment.

My grandmother was going to go through the 'Gate' first. I was sure she wouldn't make it. Even though it was scary, I told my family no, I'd go first and 'clear the way' and make it safe. So I synchronized with the 'Gate' and was hit by this flow of powerful 'light' energy hitting me like a beam in the head. It threatened to destroy me but I remained brave and I overcame it and I assume I passed the test. I interpreted it as a matter of courage and self-sacrifice.

The second dream was the same sort of test, but I don't know whether I passed or failed it, because this time it was different.

The second dream was set in some sort of academy. To borrow Tom's terminology, it was an academy of Anti-Rats, competing for power. There was another 'Gate' in this academy that Anti-Rats had to pass through. Those Anti-Rats who were unprepared would be destroyed. Those who succeeded would gain great power. The way to beat the 'Gate' was simply to not be afraid, because the 'Gate' was a structure of fear. If one is overcome by fear passing through the 'Gate', one fails.

Now, I had a choice to make. I guess I was one of the Anti-Rats and I had to decide whether to pass through the 'Gate' or not. But this time, I chickened out. Then the test ended.

I don't know what I was supposed to do. On one hand, passing through the 'Gate' would have been selfishly motivated, because the reward was the power I seek. On the other hand, not passing through the 'Gate' was a choice I made out of fear. If I could have had that power, I would have taken it.

Now I'm wondering if the answer to the test was something inbetween my two choices?

The third test was more recent, and unrelated to the past two. This test was simple.

I found myself holding a baby; it was my responsibility. I had this overwhelming sense of panic and despair as this baby kept crying and crying and I couldn't shut it up. I felt my entire life was going to be trashed because I'd be stuck with this baby and I had to raise it and I didn't want to or even know how. (Actually, a few days prior I'd been talking with my parents about how I was afraid having a family would trap me and prevent me from seeing the world. I didn't want to end up like my dad.)

So in this panicked state in the dream I had thoughts like "KILL IT KILL IT GET RID OF IT" or "COVER ITS MOUTH MAKE IT SHUT UP" but I resisted those thoughts. I didn't really resolve to do anything, I just snapped out of it after a certain point. But I was dangerously close to doing something horrible... I feel ashamed thinking how I was tempted to kill the child. I didn't and was disgusted by the thought but on some level I was really that desperate to get rid of it. It makes me feel sick thinking about it; I don't think that thought was entirely my own. I'm sure it was amplified to see how far I'd resist such an impulse?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:19 pm 
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That was a nice read Adepto, thanks for sharing.
Adepto wrote:It makes me feel sick thinking about it; I don't think that thought was entirely my own. I'm sure it was amplified to see how far I'd resist such an impulse?
Yes, surely it was.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:19 pm 
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specialis_sapientia wrote:That was a nice read Adepto, thanks for sharing.
Adepto wrote:It makes me feel sick thinking about it; I don't think that thought was entirely my own. I'm sure it was amplified to see how far I'd resist such an impulse?
Yes, surely it was.
Thanks, specialis. It means a lot to me to be able to get any sort of feedback, since in daily life where most people don't share the same metaphors it is hard to not feel isolated.

What do you think about the second dream? I'm not sure what I was supposed to have done in that situation, since both obvious choices seem to me like failures of a sort.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Adepto,

For the second one. You can choose not to go through the gate for other reasons than fear. For example, you do not want to associate with anti-rats because you feel that a different path would make you a more loving person.

The action of going through the gate or not going through seems to me like a binary one. There is no middle ground in that sense. What matters is the reason you make your decision. I.e. your intent. There can be many intents but as I understand it they can be boiled down to fear based or love based.

Just my limited and intellectual opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Yes, thank you Targobaath for starting this thread -- it is delightful and very helpful!

I had a break through awhile back where I finally passed a test I had been presented with for years, and needless to say, routinely failed....This was a reoccurring dream, nightmare really (test), I had been having for years, and I mean YEARS. In the dream/nightmare, I was either in a familiar house, or outside the house, and I knew there was "something" or "someone" scary, sinister, really creepy trying to get to me, or get into the house -- sometimes in my dream "he"/"it" would be in the basement, other times "he"/"it" would be outside coming towards the front door or on the roof and trying to get in....It was a nightmare and ever time I had this dream, or nightmare, I would wake up before whatever it was got to me - I'd wake up in a cold sweat and it would take me quite awhile to get back to sleep. Well, a few months back I found myself in the same dream standing outside a house I used to live in knowing/sensing something creepy was inside the house, but this time I had the sense of some presence besides me (I think it was my guide), supporting me a bit. This time instead of waking myself up feeling freaked out, I stayed in the dream and thought to myself, well, once and for all, I am just going to go to the front door and open it and see what the heck this awful thing/person is....and so I started walking to the door and as I got closer the door opened and men were coming out -- they were robbing the house, and I confronted them. I proceed to tell them very calmly that "they had no right to burglarized the house, and even though I had nothing against them personally, I was going to have to call the authorities..." And I said all this feeling absolutely calm, in control with no fear and with feelings of genuine compassion....I woke up knowing I had finally, after all these years, passed the test!....and boy, did it feel good, and did I ever feel a bit foolish for not passing this test a long time ago....

And, I also just recently figured out how the dirty, filthy bathroom dream is a test, which is another reacquiring dream I have been having for years -- I don't know if anyone else has experienced this one...but this dream (test) involves a dirty bathroom, which is truly disgusting and I try to get away from it as quickly as possible. The other night I had the dirty bathroom dream (test) again, but with a little modification, and my reaction was the same -- to get out of there as quickly as possible. But in the morning when I began reflecting on this dream, realizing it was test, I knew what I needed to do to pass the test -- the next time I encounter the dirty bathroom, instead of running away, I have to stay and clean it....the test is for me to not run away from things that I don't like, from things that disgust me -- I need to fix/clean up what ever needs fixing, cleaning no matter how disgusting, overwhelming, or uncomfortable it might make me feel ....Can't wait to have the test again -- keeping my finger crossed I will pass it!

Understanding the nature of these experiences as tests, truly has been life changing -- what a brilliant way to assess growth, change at the "being" level, eh.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:26 am 
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Adepto wrote:
specialis_sapientia wrote:That was a nice read Adepto, thanks for sharing.
Adepto wrote:It makes me feel sick thinking about it; I don't think that thought was entirely my own. I'm sure it was amplified to see how far I'd resist such an impulse?
Yes, surely it was.
Thanks, specialis. It means a lot to me to be able to get any sort of feedback, since in daily life where most people don't share the same metaphors it is hard to not feel isolated.

What do you think about the second dream? I'm not sure what I was supposed to have done in that situation, since both obvious choices seem to me like failures of a sort.
Well, it's a good question. I see two possibilities, either your guides didn't design that dream very well (it happens), or you just failed to recognize the other potential choices in the dream.

For example, one of the "check mark points" of the dream could have been at the moment you were given the thought or suggestion that you were one of those anti-rats. I imagine that one of the acceptable responses (not all equal) to that, would be a feeling of revulsion, out of place, matter of fact denial, and possibly a transformation to a fearless rat :)

You will likely get the opportunity for another similar test, you can also state that you want to, that can't 'hurt'.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:20 am 
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specialis_sapientia wrote:That was a nice read Adepto, thanks for sharing.
Adepto wrote:It makes me feel sick thinking about it; I don't think that thought was entirely my own. I'm sure it was amplified to see how far I'd resist such an impulse?
Yes, surely it was.

These test-o-matic dream things can be a bit pain-in-the-assity in that they seem to be nearly purely mechanical. This has some problems.... For instance, like a sorter that sorts apples for size, it utterly fails to sort for flavor, color, or vigor. One of drawbacks to some of the tests or quizzes that seem to get regularly used is that a person supposes that some test-content is somehow a part of himself that he has only just now uncovered....when really it was placed there from outside. Sometimes this backfires, and a person previously without vice assumes the vice is his, and, as a part of his being supposes that it is there for some reason and commences to own and explore it. Um... don't ask me how I know that.... ;-/ The point is, you don't have to own that 'How do I dump the kid?' thing. And you are still free in waking consciousness to consider your solution set. ...best if done from the being level, if you can get out of your mind fairly easily.... you can use your mind (modeling system) as a dowsing rod of sorts ... but you have to use your legs and shovel (the metaphor grows weak here) to get you where you might want to go.

But, you know, one of my professors way back when would actually use quizzes as teaching tools as well as assessing tools: The questions or problems would be poised in a fashion that tended to force the student to think in ways that were off angle, fresh in some way.... Instead of a problem being solvable as this or that as taught in the original idea the student would have to amend the original idea to accommodate some fresh real-worldish spin.


-Just my notions.


Montana


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:44 am 
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Hi Adepto,


thanks for "reviving" this thread. :-)

I agree, that finding an answer to your second Anti-rat test isn't easy.

It might be, that you did the right thing by not going for the selfish power solution. Maybe the test was supposed to not present you an "easy" choice like overcoming your fear or giving into it, since you had already passed that fear-test before. So maybe this time the test was supposed to find out, if you would always go for the brave choice, without thinking first. Which in this case would be supporting a selfish course just for the sake of not appearing to be a coward. Probably not the best choice either. And why should they be simply testing your braveness twice in a similar setting (by passing a gate), when you already had shown, that sacrificing yourself for others was something you'd be willing to do, if it should be necessary.

So maybe not going through the gate, because you didn't like the goal was the best thing you could do. If this test-dream should come back to you in a very similar fashion, you might have to make a different decision. But if not, this might also be an indicator, that you already did the right thing.

Or it might have been just bad test design with not sufficiently clear options, who knows. :-)

I am also very curious about your opinions about my potential test dream I have described earlier in this thread.

Have you ever experienced multiple layers of thought in your dreams? For me this was quite an unusual feeling which I give credit to the fact, that I am starting to consciously work on topics like meditation, dreams and consciousness in general instead of immediately dismissing anything paranormal as nonsense and dreams as pure electrical discharge or self-cleanup of my brain.

And I am also not sure, why I reacted this way, since I hadn't completely lost control nor was my first impulse a negative one. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

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Last edited by Tronar on Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:58 am 
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Adepto...in my enthusiasm for this thread, I did not mean to ignore what you had shared....I'd certainly have the same reaction if I had a similar dream experience!
And, I am sorry I haven't insight into your dream/test, but the feedback from others seems to very insightful. I know I have woken from a dream horrified by something I did or did not do...or horrified by some thought I had... As others noted, and I can certainly attest to, I am sure you will have other opportunities to take a similar test again and given all the thought and consideration you are giving to your reaction to what happened in the dream, and the growth that will undoubtedly produce, I'd guess the odds of passing the next test are in your favor (of course this is assuming that is was indeed a test and also assuming you did not pass the test -- maybe you did....) Not everyone would be concerned about their reaction/behavior if given the same dream scenario....your thoughtful consideration and concern in terms of your reaction to thoughts of hurting the baby speaks volumes in terms of your compassion.


Last edited by Chris on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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