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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:33 am 
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Siggi,

You have a very basic problem of telling everyone how things are supposed to work. And that the way you insist that it works is not proper.
"I can access the Akashic Records at will but I can't visit your desk". Not going to fly really, is it.
Can you access the Akashic Records? The probable future or the past actualized or the past alternative/unactualized? Are you aware even that there are these distinctions? Have you been willing in your omniscience to become aware that there have been a great many experiments, including through the US DOD, to do just this remote viewing? That there was some success, a wide variation in ability level, but not in the form of telling you what is on your desk? Are you aware that it has been explained that while 'just anyone can do it', that there are major factors in learning how through practice, acquiring facility, reaching a point of reliability and accuracy. Believe or disbelieve what you will. But don't go into illogical claims that your dis belief proves anything any more that someone elses belief proves the positive. Don't bother asking how things work if your only intent is to turn around and state that, no, it works in 'this' way instead.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:48 am 
That fear and ego will keep you stuck in a rut of misery and despair for as long as one would like. My their Siggi, when one is ready to move forward, we have a system that is more than willing to help. It is always our choice, we can stay stuck in arrogance, or we can move forward from the blocks that keep us stuck. Fred


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:03 am 
Ted Vollers wrote:Siggi,

You have a very basic problem of telling everyone how things are supposed to work. And that the way you insist that it works is not proper.
"I can access the Akashic Records at will but I can't visit your desk". Not going to fly really, is it.
Can you access the Akashic Records? The probable future or the past actualized or the past alternative/unactualized? Are you aware even that there are these distinctions? Ted
No, I'm not. And nor is anyone else, it's made-up bunk. And my "basic problem" is no different to anyone elses, including Tom's...telling everyone else how things are supposed to work. The only thing, the ONE and only thing, that 'makes his theory true' is his claim that he's verified it by travelling out of his body (OOBE). But we have only his word for that, his word that he hasn't been simply lucid-dreaming. And if that's the case his theory is only a theory.

And however you try to make something significant of the Akashic Records, by detailing them, the point still holds true...if they can be accessed but my desk can't be visited...puh, I rest my case. Or I'll employ some lateral thinking, in the interests of fairness...the contents (the stuff on it more accurately, it has no drawers) of my desk, from yesterday, are now a matter of Akashic record...so access the Akashic Records and look up the file for my desk.

Oh...there'll be a reason why that can't be done. I'll hazard a guess...ego...? :D

There are no 'Akashic Records', they're a quaint myth that have persisted through the millenia because they've been useful to those who claim special powers and privilages in furtherance of wealth and/or ego. Has anyone ever revealed information concerning historical characters and/or events that have been later verified after the fact? No. So if they do, in fact, exist, and people can access them, what possible value do they hold for mankind if the knowledge gained from them cannot be diseminated? In effect they might as well not exist for all the good they do.

These are very simple and obvious litmus-tests Ted. Basic 101 stuff. If they exist, and they can be accessed by disembodied humans, what purpose is served? The private pleasure of a few? A handful of people get to gratify their curiosity and nothing more? Where is the beneficial influence for mankind?

Please, grab a big chunk of basic common sense and stop pedalling this tosh. Tom's theory doesn't need it and it never did, it was sublime right up to the point where he basically said "...and I know it's true because I've had it confirmed while whazzing around in hyperspace outside of my body!"


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:08 am 
sabby wrote:That fear and ego will keep you stuck in a rut of misery and despair for as long as one would like. My their Siggi, when one is ready to move forward, we have a system that is more than willing to help. It is always our choice, we can stay stuck in arrogance, or we can move forward from the blocks that keep us stuck. Fred
I AM ready! No blocks here! If there was somewhere to go I'd have gone!

Please, save yourself the wasted time pedalling those old tired cliches of why "you can't do it, you're just not ready, fear and ego are holding you back!" Etc etc etc. They won't work, I see right through them, the same as any intelligent person does. They were old a couple of thousand years back already. Carney-talk.


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:27 am 
You proceed on a false assumption, that fear that generates that annoying ego into the point of arrogance is what the problem is. Forget about out of the body, i do not think it is in the cards for you. And who knows Siggi old pal you might be the one who is wrapped tight, it is just the rest of us that needs to grow up. Heavens knows you sure have a lot to offer, Maybe you can explain QM and why light is a constant and why the placebo effect works. Just as a starter, oh bright ego less one. Fred


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Siggi wrote:There's a limit to open-mindedness
Is there?
I think there could be - if you have the evidence to back up closing that door forever.
It should never be completely closed however but open to new evidence which might show up.
Can what the majority does or does not believe actually say anything but exactly that?
What most people believe?

Who said that the akashic records (past and future databases in MBT terms) are supposed to be of direct value to humankind?
It follows from the model that they exist, it's the way the system seems to work.

So: you just need to find someone who is willing to tell you what is on your desk.
Maybe you will.
What does it mean if you don't? Proof? Or just another datapoint?
What is in it for someone like that? Gaining another believer?
How does that help you to be able to do that yourself?
It could help re-open the closed door.
Why close it, then?

Jesus walked on water? That's what they say, I guess. Some don't believe it. Some say "I don't know".

This stuff is not a cornerstone of the theory.
To say it stands and falls with this stuff is flawed logic to put it gentle.
The theory is only a theory indeed - one that has the potential to consistently explain more if not all of sciences problems with just two (reasonable) assumptions. A feature the current theories are lacking.


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:37 pm 
I'm not saying the theory stands or falls on this. Maybe we need to define a point here...Tom's theory is a theory in and of its own right. Whether or not he's astrally projected is really neither here nor there...if he has he's verified his theory, if he hasn't he hasn't. Still the same theory, just it's proved/not proved. Personally I say "Tom, your theory is the best I've heard and as far as I'm concerned it holds water. But I don't believe you've actually verified it by travelling out of your body."

Does that make better sense? I'm not saying Tom's theory is cack, I'm simply saying he hasn't verified it (by travelling astrally). Oh, and I don't believe the bit about a void (which he's only gleaned by 'projecting' anyway).

Edit: Re the open mindedness; until I get evidence that satisfies me let's say the door is closed to an inch-wide crack from where it was previously open a good couple of feet. I did qualify the limit by saying about a door with "Sucker" on it.


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:55 pm 
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How could he verify it when you want the proof?
Noone could ever verify it that way except to him/herself.
He says he did, you don't believe it.
So?

A theory is one if it can be falsified, else it is just a guess.
You cannot really prove a theory - but you can gather evidence and if there is enough of it you might be confident that the theory is correct.

So you don't believe he has done it, can do it?
Fine. Don't. I think he would say something along that line.


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:11 pm 
I'm sure he would. The problem he's created for himself is another matter though, especially if his aim is to help lower entropy. A very large number of people who would otherwise have taken him seriously will be put off by his claims to have verified significant components of his theory by travelling out of his body.

So? You're right...so what, not my problem. It would just have been nice if he could have demonstrated the veracity of his claim is all. Or somebody else on his behalf. My desk is in the Akashic records so anyone who can access them, go for it. Like I said, a mere trifle.


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:33 pm 
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You're actually after a remote viewer Siggi. When you dream you are experiencing OOBE because you are getting a different stream of data. When you wake up you are getting the stream of data you interpret into this Reality frame. You already are OOB actually because this is an illusion. Tom's model says it's just data. You are after a remote viewer anyways.
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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:42 pm 
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I don't know if it helps you but as you seem to seek 'evidence' here's a little webpage of 'anecdotal evidence' / validations by projectors and also some examples in literature. It's a longer read as the list is long, it is an introduction, the original accounts given with links to the original. Some are also from laboratory experiments in a scientific setting.

http://da-lai.lima-city.de/OBE/index.html

You also should not discount the massive (!) evidence gathered via NDEs and Remote Viewing resarch. So I would not say there is NO evidence for out-of-body. Moreover, OBE is much more than just flying out of your body and watching yourself from above or doing any validations, but it is possible.

I suggest you also read up a little on parapsychology and researchers who investigated OBE, Remote viewing and NDEs (C.W. Tart, D. Radin, the PEAR Institute, Targ / Puthoff, Stephen Schwartz, P.v. Lommel, R. Moody, just to name a few).

As regards your personal evidence, I would say try to be more open to other experiences. For example I have had lots of telepathic and precognitive validations via "normal" dreams. There's also a lot of parapsychological evidence for dream telepathy or group dreaming. For me and many other experiencers, dreaming (including lucid and non-lucid) is as "REAL" as OBE and physical experience. According to Monroes and also some 'esoteric' views it is moreover also a 'projection', just because: Everything is a PROJECTION OF THE MIND. THat's the mistake people make who think that lucid dreaming or dreaming is 'not real'. Theres is no such thing as not real since everything has and is REALITY.

And you can prove it to yourself. Have patience. And work a little on your beliefs. I think that you lost your belief that it is possible. This makes it impossible because you slammed a door shut. Access to the wider reality (astral or whatever) demand of us to open both doors: the "inner" door and the outer door. The inner is your blockage by belief. The outer is by learning how to do it (techniques, practices, etc.). You must now first work on your "inner" door before you can open the outer one. Understand? That' the way I see it.

Hope it helps a little. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Regarding the lowering of entropy. Entropy is raised or lowered based upon your, as an IUOC, interactions with another IUOC. If you do not honor the free will of another, your entropy raises very very slightly. This is something that occurs over multiple life times in terms of making really significant changes. Disappointing to many who are sure that they must be making great strides because of all of the things they perceive themselves to be learning and doing. But mostly you are catching up with the level you had achieved in the last previous time until you reach that previous level. Then you finally start to create an actual change, an improvement of your last life.

It might make more sense if you compared this to something which I have posted references to on the board in the past which was soccer playing robots which were controlled by 'neural nets' programmed into their control computers, superior in terms of comparison to standard computer programming which were programmed in effect by actual play of the robots. It did not happen quickly. It only became more refined as play was repeated. Our IUOCs are much more complex and their 'programming by playing the game' takes much time. Everyone who writes about this talks about 'old souls' who have reincarnated many times and yet remain here on the same old circuit of birth and death. You might as well get the bad news all at once. It takes much time to progress.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Siggi,
I don't think anyone can disagree with some of what you are saying. But it seems that you are putting to much reliance on the idea that a personal experience of an OOBE is needed for MBT to be valid (or perhaps helpful) as a theory. Any rational person has no right to believe in the paranormal unless faced with a direct experience themselves. On the other hand I highly doubt most the people who have made claims of having a OOBE are lying. Whether it exists as a thing in the imagination or a thing in itself is another matter. Besides if everyone experienced OBEs regularly do you think there would even be a need for this theory? NPR would be a well explored territory.

More importantly though it is important to remember that MBT is a theory. No one has witnessed a quark or a gluon with their own eyes but does that mean I can deny their existence? No, especially not with the knowledge I have to hand at this given time.

MBT is a theory that lies within a logical framework taking into account physics, metaphysics, philosophy and Tom's own experience. Perhaps what you say is right, more people would have taken him seriously if he wasn't to include personal experience as you say, although I respect his openness. I agree the experiences that Tom bases much of his theory on cannot be validated 2nd hand and is therefore a shortcoming in my eyes. But the way seemingly paranormal events, quantum physics, philosophy is neatly tied together redeems this weakness well. The more you start to study other seemingly distinct subjects, the more they seem to be related under this overall framework and that is where the beauty of MBT lies.
My advice is if you are determined to prove Tom's theory and OBE is not working for you look for different avenues, read philosophy, read physics, study people with both opposing and similar ideas, come up with a theory of everything which supports your experiences, you'll probably be better off anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:31 pm 
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A quick answer to your question that is on-topic.

It is beyond our limit of knowledge. Consciousness cannot know what was before consciousness, nor how it was created, as consciousness did not exist at that point to "witness" it from the outside. Though we can within the limits of our model say it was likely that some potential existed, that eventually evolved into consciousness by a fundamental process of evolution. Your question is ultimately a demonstration in speculation and conjecture.

To the other topic..
Siggi wrote:The only way to get outside of this reality is via death. There are no people slipping in and out of their bodies, gadding about in an alternative reality. It's pure poppycock. We get all the teasing, the hints, the winks and nods, but solid evidence? Never. There's always a convenient reason of course, some plausible-sounding and often highly esoteric explanation, but it always comes down to the same MO..."I'm not special...you can do it too...except you can't, which means I'm special."

Yes, it is special; lucid dreaming I mean. I have no idea what percentage of the population can have them reliably but it must be a small minority. It took me two weeks of nightly catechism-chanting to get thirty-seconds' worth, and nothing since, so I figure it's got to be pretty rare if that's what's required. Apart from those who are just lucky enough to be born with an innate predisposition for them. And an even smaller minority of that minority who genuinely believe they're actually leaving their bodies.

There is no super-set consciousness involving itself in the affairs of us or our world. I'm not saying there isn't a super-set consciousness, only that it is utterly disinterested in us, if it even knows we exist at all. I suspect it doesn't. The evidence for that is hard to deny and can be seen by taking a long hard look at this world in which we live and what goes on it in. It is a torture-camp, a place of madness and insanity, ruled by psychopaths who have had their way without let or hinderance since mankind has stood on two feet. A "vale of tears" indeed. I'd hazard a guess that Buddha was known for his powers of understatement. Tom's theory is persuasive but it doesn't stand up to the evidence, at least not so far as proposing there's some kind of two-way deal going on between us and 'AUM'. Pure speculation with an attempt to give it a greater authority based upon a claim of out-of-body communication, sincerely believed or otherwise. What it really is, in my considered opinion, is a very fine theory with lucid-dreaming thrown into the mix.
This is pure belief. The traditional axiom "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" seems to address your attitude and the problem with it.

How do you know whether there is a difference between a lucid dreaming or a out of body experience, when you do not have the necessary experience to come with any reasons why they are different or why they are not? Your adamant belief that it is "pure poppycock" will likely prevent you from the possibility of knowing whether it is or not, this is in part caused by cognitive bias such as confirmation bias. You seek truth, yet to prevent yourself from it when you say "The only way to get outside of this reality is via death". You do not gain anything by that belief (and all beliefs in general), but you rather limit yourself to primarily reinforce the belief you have, rather than challenge it.

You apparently want to have an "OOBE" right?
Siggi wrote:"Hi Ingerul. Not after anything fancy, just an OOBE. :D Not even much of one, a few seconds would do, just to know, once and for all, that this whole deal is for real. By "whole deal" I'm not refering specifically to MBT, I mean the entire new-age spiritual ancient-mystics yada yada gig is real.
Eh, can you make your mind up? How can you know if this whole deal is real, when it's pure poppycock? So apparently it's all a fantasy, yet you want to experience the fantasy that should somehow disprove it's a fantasy? Do you see the problem with this kind of thinking?

If you want to experience an OOBE, you should first reconcile what I wrote above with yourself. Open-minded scepticism deals with that problem, and all such problems in general.

It would also be a good idea to get a better grasp of what the My Big TOE theory and model really is about, for example, you would know that "getting out of body" is problematic since you are not in the body to begin with. This can for example be helpful since many people fail because they conceptually try to get out of their body, when they rather could focus their mind and attention on another reality, and possibly succeed because a limiting belief (and metaphor) is not holding them back.

Also you are right that there is no major difference between a lucid dream and a OOBE, but you are not correct for the right reasons. That they are not fundamentally different, does not mean that you cannot gather evidence that validates the "objectivity" of the experience while in a OOBE state, just as you can do the same in a lucid dream. The main difference between the lucid dream and the OOBE is the entry method and the associated beliefs attached. Those beliefs can and will create a difference in the mind of the person, but it is caused by belief, not a fundamental difference.

The truth you seek is unlikely to be handed to you on a silver platter, as you seem to wish, well.. you do have access to My Big TOE, and while you may not know it, you can learn far more about reality from it than you can from any single OOBE, that is not to say that an OOBE cannot be helpful and mind-expanding, it can.. but do not miss what is right in front of you :)


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 Post subject: Re: No Void.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:09 pm 
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S_S... The Carpenter ! ... hit several nails on the head in that post.

Good layout of the essentials in this specific case, S_S.


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