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 Post subject: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:04 am 
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Hello,
I am nearly at the end of MBT, and I must say it is easily the most structured view of Reality I have ever read. Brilliant. However, I am not a warrior like Tom, and I wonder whether other forum users think that it is possible to improve QoC on a gentler path? For instance, by mentally blessing others. Or would this be seen as basically avoiding (being in denial of) ones own fear issues. Alas, I don't think confrontation with ones fears is for all of us -I've tried that for over 30 years, and can't seem to get anywhere. Would MBT philosophy allow gentler approaches to lowering entropy?
In hope...
Ross


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:42 am 
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rossw,

You do not have to emulate Tom, or anyone for that matter, to benefit from the knowledge you acquire from reading and studying Tom's trilogy, MBT. If you interact with others on the basis of honoring their and your free will, the golden rule and all that, the inbuilt entropy reduction mechanisms of AUM will automatically and gradually improve your entropy level/quality of being. There are many paths and approaches to making your way through a PMR experience packet. Understanding who you really are, and therefore who all of our fellow travelers in PMR are in reality, is a major factor. Even a superficial, intellectual, understanding is of some value. It is not like a religious concept of entering into heaven based on your merit or a Zen concept of bursting through into an understanding. You are already who and what you are and as such, an integral part of AUM. You don't have to achieve anything to participate in 'heaven' at the end of your PMR VR experience packet, aka your life. You are already participating in, by coprocessing of the experience, NPMR while experiencing PMR. Whatever you do in terms of entering into the reality described in MBT while still participating in PMR is a bonus and accelerating factor, but the way of a warrior is not a necessity. Some people know that they are part of a Union that constitutes All That There Is without having to prove it to themselves through a life of skeptical testing and exploring. Free will means just what it says: you are free to choose your path, be a warrior or whatever your predilection leads you to. It is true understanding and the quality of your Intent guiding your interactions with others that accelerates your progress towards higher quality of being. 'Blessing others' can be part of your interactions, whatever you specifically mean by this. In my opinion, you are likely to find your fears dissipating if you do in fact internalize the lessons of MBT as this will automatically remove some of the things that you have to fear from your beliefs. Why fear death if you know you will not die? Why fear to do the right thing if you know that this is a VR created for the very purpose of learning to do the right thing? It is really that simple.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:59 am 
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Rossw,

Ted said it all, and said it very well.

In Book 2 Chapter 13 in the middle of a long aside, I outline three approaches.
1) The Path of Knowledge --often called the "warrior's path"
2) The Path of Service
3) The Path of Surrender

I have taken Path 1 because it suits me best, but paths 2 and 3 are equally valid and will take you to the same place. Both 2 and 3 may be seen as gentler than 1, with 3 being the gentlest of all - but all require courage and letting go of fear just the same. Only 1 requires an eyeball to eyeball confrontation with ones fears. It is not an either-or choice, one can mix and match to suit ones personality and circumstances -- all are compatible and work together.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:21 am 
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Path 1 - "The way of the Warrior" This involves experiential NPMR engagement

Path 2 and 3 - I assume 2 and 3 do not?


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Thank you very much for your prompt and thoughtful replies.
The idea of mixing and matching all 3 paths (Knowledge, Surrender and Service) is appealing, but I think it must be hard to create focus this way. (In other words, my progress seems rather slow!).

Perhaps it could be looked at in a different way: in terms of archetypes, perhaps. In archetypal terms, if Tom is a warrior, I would be a poet. I would define the archetypal poet as someone who is sensitive, and therefore vulnerable. He loves birdsong, bees and butterflies, the beauty and peace of nature and shies from all disharmony, aggression and noise. The vulnerability of this position, living in a crowded part of the western world, must be obvious -this is what creates the fear (no particular fear of death, Ted, rather the opposite when the rap music starts!). And yet being repelled by "high entropy" disharmony seems natural to me, even if the dread of it constantly interferes with peace of mind . (Of course, poetry doesn't pay; I have to earn a living, and cannot run off to the wilderness -and I understand that this is not recommended by MBT anyway.)

However, I am hoping that as I digest the lessons of MBT will suggest a path out of this tricky maze. Blessings to you Tom and Ted, for your efforts on behalf of humanity.

Sub Fixit()

For each pain in Consciousness
If pain.focus Is InBody Then
ailment.cure
Elseif pain.focus Is InMind Then
irrationalfear.expunge
Elseif pain.focus Is InSoul Then
emotionalblockage.clear
End If
Next

End Sub


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Hi Ross
A little Basic computer programming? Make sure you don't get yourself into an endless loop, and that your goto's are pragmatic. ;)
Love to you and yours
Bette

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what is?
Consciousness.


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:04 pm 
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OM: Path 1 - "The way of the Warrior" This involves experiential NPMR engagement. Path 2 and 3 - I assume 2 and 3 do not?

Tom: None of the paths require NPMR engagement.

The Path Of Knowledge may be more likely to involve engagement in NPMR but the knowledge required is simply the knowledge of Big Truth and the truth of self. The knowledge of Truth comes from personal experience and tasting the pudding. You fearlessly look your ego in the eye, grab it by the throat and squeeze until it goes away -- then you fearlessly insert yourself into the big picture.

One way to finally "see" the big picture is to go there and explore it directly; another is to explore it indirectly with intuition and feeling. I am a scientist, I wanted to know how it works -- I wanted to understand why everything is as it is -- the possibilities, the limits, the boundaries, the structure, the logic -- that's just me, not necessarily a template to be followed by everyone.

I pursued NPMR and grabbed it with both hands; The Path Of Surrender requires great courage to give yourself up totally to eschew all control -- if there is engagement with NPMR it is usually because NPMR grabs the individual -- but, under those conditions, the sense of NPMR is largely theological/poetical, not factual or logical. Thus, a rational understanding cannot easily or effectively be communicated

The path of service is less likely to engage NPMR but when it does, it is most often as applications of tool-set metaphors -- largely PMR practical, not factual or logical. There is little to communicate to others except through example.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:34 pm 
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TOM: The Path of Knowledge may be more likely to involve engagement in NPMR but the knowledge required is simply the knowledge of Big Truth and the truth of self. The knowledge of Truth comes from personal experience and tasting the pudding. You fearlessly look your ego in the eye, grab it by the throat and squeeze until it goes away -- then you fearlessly insert yourself into the big picture.

OM: I have not arrived at this portion of the book yet but How can you get to big truth without experiencing NPMR directly?
Personal experience and tasting the pudding... That is Experiential?
I guess you can get to a point of peace and oneness with 'all that is' I feel it in meditation at times, no-thing, everything, the witness. but without going over the fence eventually? that is not experiencing big truth for yourself. That is ending the journey short, no?

But that is a choice we all have. Nothing wrong with being 'at oneness' with all that there is.
I know people at this stage, Either they don't appear to have the interest, need or drive(completely content and at peace with all that there is in non-duality)
some even say they don't have the innate ability for OOBE or NPMR exploration.
Maybe that way, is, with Intuition and feeling.
However, I already feel like I experienced it with my intuition and feeling. I already know and feel it. But isn't that just a Belief unless there is Objective consistent measurement?

Tom: One way to finally "see" the big picture is to go there and explore it directly; another is to explore it indirectly with intuition and feeling. I am a scientist, I wanted to know how it works -- I wanted to understand why everything is as it is -- the possibilities, the limits, the boundaries, the structure, the logic -- that's just me, not necessarily a template to be followed by everyone.

OM: Well, I may not be a scientist by trade, maybe I am more of a Scholar type. Why climb the mountain??? BECAUSE IT IS THERE! The Elephant in the room!
Its there, I want to know, what it is, why it is, Who am I, who was I, what am I, what is there, how does that pudding taste! They are all part of my reasons. I want to know the truth. I am not sure you can find the truth for yourself without NPMR engagement of some kind. Needless to say that of course is a belief.
We are all part of the oneness, we are all one. I am you, you are me, we are one, we are all consciousness.
Ok, fine. But I still want to go over the fence.

OM


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:22 pm 
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There is no fence ;). I'm just saying...:).
Love
Bette

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what is?
Consciousness.


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Quote:
The Path Of Surrender requires great courage to give yourself up totally to eschew all control -- if there is engagement with NPMR it is usually because NPMR grabs the individual -- but, under those conditions, the sense of NPMR is largely theological/poetical, not factual or logical. Thus, a rational understanding cannot easily or effectively be communicated
Those who have followed the work of Eckart Tolle will easily understand what is The Path of Surrender.

A great teacher by the way...


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:37 pm 
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OM,

Yes, I understand, some of us are just like that -- determined to get over that fence and explore what is on the other side. I also belong to that group -- so does my dog Frodo. Take that puppy out of the house without a leash and he's gone. I also notice that he goes totally deaf as soon as he gets beyond arms reach. However, not everyone is like Dora the explora.

The point to your existence is growing up, decreasing the entropy of your personal consciousness and of the larger consciousness system, evolving the quality of your consciousness, becoming love, not zipping around in NPMR. If zipping around NPMR helps you accomplish those goals, then it is a good thing to do, if not, it is not important. 1) Exploring the larger reality has helped me accomplish those goals because of the particular way I learn. That is true, but so is this: 2) because I accomplished those things, NPMR was made accessible to me. And this: 3) I gained access to NPMR because doing so was on my path. One develops a harmonious resonance with NPMR when all three of those conditions are met simultaneously (each being the result of the other two). Each of us have a unique path that develops in front of us one step at a time partly by random encounter, partly by plan, and partly because of who we are the choices we make along the way.

Then, of course, Bette is correct -- there is no fence -- the barrier is made out of your own fears and beliefs. Because you have torn the barrier down, enables you, but doesn't require you, to cross the boundary. The goal is to remove the barriers -- deconstructing them from both sides may be helpful for some, but not necessary for all. The danger is that if you focus too much on working from the NPMR side you may neglect the fundamentally more important PMR side. More important because that is the reality frame our local awareness is centered in -- PMR is the place where the actuality and value of our supposed growth is put to the test. PMR is the venue in which we pass or fail by demonstration of what is truly inside of us. This is where the rubber meets the road and it is a mistake to be enthralled with zipping about NPMR while neglecting the application of your Big Truth to the everyday challenges of PMR existence (this would weaken the second condition upon which conditions one and three depend.).

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:33 am 
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All,

Further regarding paths. I have no idea which path I'm on other than my own which seems to include elements of all the paths you have been discussing but mostly figuring out that there are such things as paths within our lives that are pre planned for our enlightenment (as in education). Two phrases that are traditional or special to mystics have been special to me for many years: I am a feather on God's Breath (Hildegad von Bingen) and I exist only to serve. I have concluded that they apply to all of us, whether we know it as so or not. They would appear to be pure statements that apply to the path of surrender and the path of service. One of the things I was given was a specific path outline that is on my web site. I appear to have been/be blocked from traveling around in NPMR in order to maintain my focus on PMR and how we might better experience it fruitfully (profitably as Tom would say). In part this has shown up as my linking of MBT concepts to the historical development of those same concepts over the centuries, although they are vaguely (poetically, mystically) stated instead of clearly and 'scientifically' stated. Tom is in the same series of explorers as Lao Tsu and the other Taoists, the Indian metaphysicians writing in Sanskrit and the Buddha, in my opinion. He did not 'invent' The One Mind, but he did explore and explains it as a logical development including modern scientific and digital technology concepts.

I have not however been blocked from accessing information about the larger Consciousness System, or so it seems. Perhaps 15 years ago I instantaneously lost my over active internal dialog, although thinking, intentionally and consciously thinking through things, is not so hard as it once was. But I do not think through the things that I post here on the forums and logically work out my statement. I may review, expand and edit after writing, perhaps extensively, but I don't see myself (my PMR conscious focus) as being the source for the information I write out. And a feeling of satisfaction finally comes that it is time to stop. I don't know precisely what onion I am peeling and how much comes from my higher self or what other source(s). I do not see it as channeling as I once might have thought. I am not so much told what to write as that it comes from non conscious sources with the result presented to me through the VRRE. This aspect of the functioning of the VRRE (the variations of what is/becomes conscious in PMR) is not something that I thought up but something that I seem to constantly experience. The same applies to conversations between myself and my friends who are linked around me who I appear to be helping with their problems and development as they simultaneously provide an extended learning field for me beyond the limits of my own life. Basically I have learned to trust that I am more than my conscious focus and that I have true access to much from outside of that conscious focus which is available as required. As do you all, if you would learn to access and trust it.

So what is the importance of a traditional path? I could never find a traditional approach to Absolute Reality as I call it, whether Christian mysticism, Indian metaphysics, Taoist metaphysics, Buddhist/Zen metaphysics or shamanism that I did not find limited. I can see linkages and similarities, but find none satisfactory to me personally. Others get linked to one approach or another. Then you have the concepts of warrior/surrender/service paths. MBT explains them all. I am possibly an example of the blending of many 'paths'. This brings me back to what I said at the start of this thread. Apply your free will. It does not matter what approach you take. It is that you undertake the journey, make the attempt, seek knowledge and understanding, attempt to live by right action and with good Intent. All sincere approaches will accelerate your development as a being, moving your quality and entropy levels in desirable directions to the purposes of The One. That is the true and over riding 'path' of all of The One.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:42 am 
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Well, the fence is just used as a metaphor.

I fully understand that for some NPMR is not a point to be explored. Whether blocked, not required or not desired.
In fact a Gurdjieffian told me, don't induce any states, if you go out of your body , I would suggest you go into your body first. he seemed against the idea or dis-interested. My thought is ? Huh? Why not? Who wouldn't be interested in that knowledge and experience unless he just wanted to get my focus off of it to help me build other abilities which I think I have due to the statement. However, Gurdjieff clearly was floating around doing something somewhere.

Listening to teachers such as Adyshanti, Tolle, Mooji - Self Enquiry etc etc. They all seem to be saying the same thing. To put your attention on the witness, that we are already complete and whole beings and once you realize how simple it is and get in touch with all that is, the oneness that you are, the one. Non-Duality, That's it. That's all there is. Just be.
They say we are already complete. No need to raise one's being? There is nothing to raise?
Something seems to be missing from there.

For a period of time when I didnt feel ready (chicken) last year, I was being pulled into paralysis in the middle of the night periodically. Being pulled into the state, Like it was calling me. I had to lean over and grab my wife to get more acclimated in PMR to break that connection. So being patient and involved in this Gurdjieff group I thought I was going to learn some secret knowledge that would help me.
Something to build on Monroe since I couldn't get to the Institute. An esoteric hands on group. A Magic formula.
OH BOY! There is no magic formula. Its just you.

NPMR has been a "splinter in my mind" so for me its not just to go Zipping around and having fun (although having a little freedom to walk on mars and/or remote view is kinda cool).
For me, its for validation and also, I assume.... here we go with belief again, I assume that I will be able to uncover many secrets of truth and reality. of who I am, what I am, why I am, break barriers of fear, understand Past lives other existences and my true nature, our true nature. Tom please correct me if I am wrong to assume this.

So, when looking back over 2 years+, I learned many things from many stops along the way.
Focusing of attention on myself
Awareness of other than my thoughts - body, essence and that there is something behind the curtain of the mind/ego
Control of my thoughts - Meditation - self enquiry
Learning to be aware of and plug Useless wastes of energy - involuntary tensions. negative emotions, internal considering, Lying to oneself etc
Learning to be impeccable with your word etc etc etc
All these things and more

All work to lower entropy, building and accumulating to raise one's level of being. In essence, helping to put me either on my original pre-determined path or at least much closer to it.

For me it started simply by getting frustrated with an annoying eye condition and after different medications from a Opthomologist didn't work, I said enough is enough, the current system doesn't know jack about real health.
And just like that, the 18 yrs of sleep was over. I started reading, investigating, Juicing Vegetables big time and 2+ years later here I am, the western money focused neanderthal transformed to a path of natural health and nutrition and in a state of mind no one including myself thought possible at that time.

So my path, Its developing, I am the feather, learning to just flow in the AUO wind.
So if NPMR is in my cards so be it. If not, so be it. I will keep doing what I am doing and see where my path takes me.

I once said to Ubik. I have been mostly on my own, growing, learning.
Ubik said, So you are on your own? It seems like 'on your own' has done pretty good so far.
We are all in it together, helping each other, even if we don't realize it.

OM


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:04 am 
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Ted, Your post hit the spot -- very instructive.

OM, You seem to understand very well

With such wisdom, and clear thinking, I have nothing else to say.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Gentleness?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:45 am 
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Hello Bette; yes, if what Tom says about AI Guy is right, Excel 2107 will be able to cure all our ills ;-)

OM: I agree with you when you say "something seems to be missing" in the philosophy of Eckhart Tolle et al. He says that when we've truly "got it", all drama disappears from our lives. *All* drama?! This sounds fishy to me. Perhaps it's possible on the Path of Surrender...but unlikely, because at the very least, there's always that ‘random spice' that Tom mentions.

Ted: Wasn't Hildegard also the one who said that we are sparks from the great fire? Lovely image.

I'm still not sure why being repelled by disharmony (= being fearful of it) is wrong. If disharmony is ‘high noise' (literally!) and ‘high entropy', shouldn't we seek to put distance between ourselves and it? I seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding something here.


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