Return Home
It is currently Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:50 pm

All times are UTC-06:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:51 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 205
I am working thru my second read of MBT and am getting tangled in the PMR evolution of self awareness. My understanding, thus far, is, Aum has partitioned itself into a rule based virtual reality system. This system has been allowed to evolve according to the probabilities and constraints of the PMR rules, much like a fractal evolves on a computer screen. At some point in this evolution a virtual brain was evolved that allowed for the emergence of a self aware consciousness(us). So far, this would be exactly parallel to the materialist theory of consciousness developement, but without the further explanatory power of AUM. My understanding of this virtual reality is that it is "really" a data stream being interpreted by AUM's partitioned "consciousness". My deduction is that, in the beginning at least, this consciousness was not self aware. My first question is then, is PMR and PMRn and NPMR evolution needed to make AUM self aware? Further, is the evolution of the virtual brain also ( along with developing self awareness)a mechanisim for a stronger delineated compartmentalization of AUM? We would then be extremely important to AUM, maybe even rising above the level of intestinal bacteria.

I am somewhat confused here, as I have read on these boards that the "virtual" brain is not existant until it is observed, so to speak. This would seem to be diametrically opposed to its importance in the development of self aware consciousness. The book also points out that there is nothing that says a technically advanced computer could not become self aware. Again, pointing to the importance of the "brain'" to the developement of self awareness. The brain, it seems to me, is a tight iterating rule set (mirror) that "forces" a consiousness into a self reflective mode, thereby catapulting the evolution of AUM.

Also, regarding reincarnation, if self awareness arises with the development of the virtual brain, then I would assume that a self aware consiousness is "automatic" within the brain developement cycle of the fetus. Where then, is there room for a returning NPMR personality? The virtual brain would seem to be already be "occupied."

Tom or others more conversant in MBT, I would appreciate your input to clear some of this up for me.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:35 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:00 am
Posts: 1285
Seven, some very good questions.

Which comes first: PMR, PMRn and NPMR evolution or AUM self awareness. That reminds me of the chicken and the egg -- and the answer is the same. They evolved together.

The brain is an expression of the abilities and qualities of consciousness within the PMR rule-set. As personal growth (change) takes place (evolution of one's personal unit of individuated consciousness), one's brain changes to reflect that growth. Consciousness leads and the physical expression of that consciousness within the constraints of the PMR rule-set follows. The virtual PMR is a creation of consciousness -- consciousness in not a creation of the virtual reality, though it is modified by its experiences within that virtual reality. Much like a pilot is modified (gains skill and experience) from working with a virtual reality flight trainer.

Seven: I am somewhat confused here, as I have read on these boards that the "virtual" brain is not extant until it is observed, so to speak. This would seem to be diametrically opposed to its importance in the development of self aware consciousness.

Tom: In a virtual computed reality game/trainer nothing is extant until it is "rendered on the screen". Before it is rendered on the screen, it is just potential bound by logical consistency with what has gone before and the defining rule-set. That fact has nothing to do with the importance of what eventually gets rendered, or the importance that eventual rendering has to whoever is "playing" this particular virtual reality game, or the importance that the virtual reality game has to its creators. It is just a fact of the process of creating a virtual reality. The directly experienceable virtual reality is composed only of what is rendered into that reality -- much can be presumed as probable that does not have to be rendered (e.g., that everyone has a brain in their skull). Unless the skull is broken open, that brain does not have to be rendered. This is simply a mechanical or logical aspect of virtual realities defined by rule-sets. The reality is defined by what is rendered - only what is rendered can be directly be experienced - what cannot be directly experienced (measured) exists only in probability (does not have to be rendered) -- it has nothing to do with relative importance.

Seven: The book also points out that there is nothing that says a technically advanced computer could not become self aware. Again, pointing to the importance of the "brain'" to the developement of self awareness.

Tom: Normally, to be an aware entity within PMR requires that you have a PMR form or body that "contains" or represents that awareness in PMR. That body can be a computer or a human body with a brain. The computer or brain may be said to host the awareness that represents a particular consciousness. Damage that brain or computer and the amount and type of awareness that can be effectively hosted is changed -- damage it enough and it will no longer be able to host an awareness of any sort. Being self-aware as a PMR entity (a part of the virtual reality that must abide by the rule-set) requires a "body" capable of hosting that awareness. That awareness interacts experientially with other. Through that experience, the awareness may becomes more aware and knowledgeable and thus produce modifications to its physical system (body) that represent that new larger awareness. THe brain dosen't drive the development of self awareness, it reflects it -- embodies it within the PMR virtual reality in terms of the PMR ruleset. Experience in PMR drives the development of self awareness and the development of consciousness quality since PMR aeareness is just an extention of the nonphysical consciousness into the nonphysical virtual reality as an appearent "physical player" within that virtual reality.

Seven: The brain, it seems to me, is a tight iterating rule set (mirror) that "forces" a consiousness into a self reflective mode [interactive experience within rule-set constraints], thereby catapulting the evolution of [both the individual and] AUM.

Tom: I agree -- that is one way to express it.

Seven: Where then, is there room for a returning NPMR personality? The virtual brain would seem to be already be "occupied."

Tom: A sufficiently complex self modifying computer will spontaneously develop consciousness, but that computer can also be pre-loaded with data defining all or part of some other computer's (one with extremely similar hardware) self developed consciousness. Immediately after that software load, the two computers may have very similar attributes, but begin to diverge into their own uniqueness as they learn and grow in their own ways (approach problems with multiple solutions that can be assessed in multiple ways). Same story with any digital consciousness system.

I hope this produces more clarity than fog.

Tom C


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:37 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
I can't clear it up, but I can say that I understand there is no "development of self aware consciousness." because consciousness is all that is. The quality of consciousness through organization of experience data of all of its bits (different "lives" in this PMR and other PMRs at the same time, or different 'times') develops, but consciousness itself is foundational, as I understand it. Self aware consciousness is a state of consciousness such as experienced during meditation.

As I understand the beginning of the great divide :) there was consciousness but it only had itself and was always in the same state. Then, something happened (it's really all in the details, isn't it?) and there were two states, this or that, it was divided and had a pulse metaphorically speaking. There was a difference and two states, what happens after that seems like that two state consciousness continued dividing but can't recall if each division had two states off hand. That is how I recall my reading anywho. I'm sure some better data will come in here.
Love
Bette
I see Tom's post now, but am posting this anyway and then I'll see how close I got when I read his answer. ;)

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:53 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 205
Quote:
Which comes first: PMR, PMRn and NPMR evolution or AUM self awareness. That reminds me of the chicken and the egg -- and the answer is the same. They evolved together.
Tom, this is getting scary. I think that am beginning to understand this. The virtual brain did not come before self awareness, it evolved because of self awareness and vice versa. I had a gut feeling that it was an iterative process, but kept getting hung up on which came first.

Bette, unless I am still missing something, I think that self aware consciousness is indeed developed, remember that AUO was at most only minimally self aware until the fundamental process kicked in.

Thanks
Seven


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:23 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Well Seven, I think it can be safely said that we all are missing something, and that that is what we are doing, gathering the missing pieces of our particular (or peculiar as the case may be) puzzle. I've only been onto MBT since last August (2008) and have much to learn. That's why I like to throw out answers, sometimes, to see if I understand. Understanding develops if one keeps intaking and experiencing, that's fer[sic] sure. ;)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:40 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:00 am
Posts: 1285
Seven: Tom, this is getting scary. I think that am beginning to understand this.

Suddenly coming to the realization that MBT might actually make sense can be a scary experience to one who is very left brain dominant and steeped in the beliefs of his/her culture. :-) Like ripping a gaping hole in the fabric of yesterday's perfectly satisfactory and reasonable reality.

Tom C


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:10 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 205
Quote:
That's why I like to throw out answers, sometimes, to see if I understand. Understanding develops if one keeps intaking and experiencing, that's fer[sic] sure. ;)
Bette, that is also why I like to "challenge" MBT theory, to learn, to test and to help, as Tom said, "rip open a gaping hole in the fabric of yesterday's reality". What could be better?

Seven


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:33 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
It is fun Seven, rippppppp. I'm not sure if I am challenging MBT or it is challenging me, same outcome though so is all cool.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:08 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Seven and Tom,

The fear reaction is strange sounding to me although I can imagine it. After a life time of working things out on my own, and finding things not too far from Tom's description, but limited to a PMR smaller picture, the reaction I had seemed more like being inside a huge but silent bell as it was rung. As I would keep reading things that fitted right around my then understanding and expanded/explained it, it felt like a reverberation passing through my body, apparently as concepts fell into place. It was a 'magical' experience, never to be experienced again on rereading and I have never found a better description for it. There is at least still some degree of 'visceral thrill' when I contemplate the model in my mind (or Tom states something new and illuminating) and find some small expansion of my understanding. I was very fortunate in my own explorations.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:18 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:54 am
Posts: 417
A very challenging thread - for this virtual brain, anyway! You are so right, Bette. Every time I think I may have got a certain set of MBT concepts "in order" (which I suppose means: satisfying to my intellect - not always a reliable maxim, of course, in MBT terms!), along comes a thread like this, and I'm thrown back again, if perhaps not right back to the (conceptual) starting line, but certainly way down the field again. I've read and re-read the posts here, and I think (I hope) I'm just back within sight of the tailenders again.

Enough athletic metaphor - a specific point:

Tom: A sufficiently complex self modifying computer will spontaneously develop consciousness, but that computer can also be pre-loaded with data defining all or part of some other computer's (one with extremely similar hardware) self developed consciousness. Immediately after that software load, the two computers may have very similar attributes, but begin to diverge into their own uniqueness as they learn and grow in their own ways (approach problems with multiple solutions that can be assessed in multiple ways). Same story with any digital consciousness system.

What factors might determine which of these (spontaneous, or pre-loaded) mechanisms might occur, whether relating to computers, or newly-conceived PMR life forms? Is it random, or is one way more frequent in the natural scheme than the other?

Arthur

_________________
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."


Top
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:11 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:00 am
Posts: 1285
Arthur,

Evolution favors pre-loading -- that way progress is made by building the next iteration upon the last iteration. There are reasons to occasionally start from scratch but generally one brings to an incipient being a pattern whose evolution is to be continued.

Tom


Top
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:35 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:54 am
Posts: 417
Thanks, Tom - that makes sense of course.

Arthur

_________________
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited