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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:31 am 
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Certainly it would appear so, given all it's accomplished (including me writing this right now), however, we assume that it has a "personality"... why?

Well, it certainly is intelligent... one can't dispute that, but what if its consistent forward movement isn't due to a personality "choosing" more "stuff" to happen which lowers it's entropy... but a simple instinct.

What if it's just an instinct which moves everything forward, creates new realities (VRs), and evolves forward... and something it deliberately chooses to do?

Maybe it doesn't choose us to lower its entropy, but we simply evolved to do so, born out of its instinct to raise its awareness (of itself) and of course, lower its entropy.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:12 am 
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I wouldn't choose the word instinct. Consider that Consciousness might be called an emergent property of vastly complex and multiply interconnected digital decision making nodes.

You might read the article on Emergence on WikiPedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
Quote:
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence is a process whereby larger entities, patterns, and regularities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities that themselves do not exhibit such properties.

Emergence is central in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems. For instance, the phenomenon life as studied in biology is commonly perceived as an emergent property of interacting molecules as studied in chemistry, whose phenomena reflect interactions among elementary particles, modeled in particle physics, that at such higher mass—via substantial conglomeration—exhibit motion as modeled in gravitational physics. Neurobiological phenomena are often presumed to suffice as the underlying basis of psychological phenomena, whereby economic phenomena are in turn presumed to principally emerge.

In philosophy, emergence typically refers to emergentism. Almost all accounts of emergentism include a form of epistemic or ontological irreducibility to the lower levels.
Here is a definition of emergent property from Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... t+property
Quote:
emergent property
noun

any unique property that "emerges" when component objects are joined together in constraining relations to "construct" a higher-level aggregate object, a novel property that unpredictably comes from a combination of two simpler constituents
Examples

The familiar taste of salt is an emergent property with respect to the sodium and chlorine of which it is composed.
Regarding what if any personality that AUM might possess, we only speculate based upon our own possession of such personalities. Beyond this, we can observe that AUM appears to be insatiably curious as it seems to be expanding constantly by creating new IUOCs and placing them in myriads of VRs where they are 'let loose' to develop in as many novel ways as they can manage. Thus it appears that AUM values novelty and open ended possibilities over any model of 'perfection' already arrived at. This implies open ended optimism.

We may further attribute the emotions of love, compassion, sympathy and understanding to AUM since AUM has gone to such great efforts to create the myriads of VRs of PMR and NPMR type where its component IUOCs may be gifted with consciousness and experience those emotions among others. Note also that AUM did not choose to delete the NPMRs where we have continuing existence when it invented PMRs where it gains the most and most rapid benefits to AUM itself.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:22 am 
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I wouldn't choose the word instinct. Consider that Consciousness might be called an emergent property of vastly complex and multiply interconnected digital decision making nodes.

You might read the article on Emergence on WikiPedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
Quote:
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence is a process whereby larger entities, patterns, and regularities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities that themselves do not exhibit such properties.

Emergence is central in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems. For instance, the phenomenon life as studied in biology is commonly perceived as an emergent property of interacting molecules as studied in chemistry, whose phenomena reflect interactions among elementary particles, modeled in particle physics, that at such higher mass—via substantial conglomeration—exhibit motion as modeled in gravitational physics. Neurobiological phenomena are often presumed to suffice as the underlying basis of psychological phenomena, whereby economic phenomena are in turn presumed to principally emerge.

In philosophy, emergence typically refers to emergentism. Almost all accounts of emergentism include a form of epistemic or ontological irreducibility to the lower levels.

Here is a definition of emergent property from Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... t+property
Quote:
emergent property
noun

any unique property that "emerges" when component objects are joined together in constraining relations to "construct" a higher-level aggregate object, a novel property that unpredictably comes from a combination of two simpler constituents
Examples

The familiar taste of salt is an emergent property with respect to the sodium and chlorine of which it is composed.
Regarding what if any personality that AUM might possess, we only speculate based upon our own possession of such personalities. Beyond this, we can observe that AUM appears to be insatiably curious as it seems to be expanding constantly by creating new IUOCs and placing them in myriads of VRs where they are 'let loose' to develop in as many novel ways as they can manage. Thus it appears that AUM values novelty and open ended possibilities over any model of 'perfection' already arrived at. This implies open ended optimism.

We may further attribute the emotions of love, compassion, sympathy and understanding to AUM since AUM has gone to such great efforts to create the myriads of VRs of PMR and NPMR type where its component IUOCs may be gifted with consciousness and experience those emotions among others. Note also that AUM did not choose to delete the NPMRs where we have continuing existence when it invented PMRs where it gains the most and most rapid benefits to AUM itself.

Ted

Interesting points. So, if we're guessing that AUM has a personality, then I assume it's safe to assume that we're also guessing that IUOC's having no personality is also, primarily an assumption? Is it possible that MBT got it backwards? That IUOC's are the ones with personality and AUM is merely instinct?

And the attributes we attribute to AUM could be done by IUOC's or groups of IUOC's working collectively in a "hive mind" (which as I understand it, is what TBC is anyways, correct)?

How do we know that AUM itself isn't more of a pure primordial spirit with an instinct to evolve, and it's not US, the IUOC's/FWAU's who're making things happen?

Well, we could say we're incapable, but we have to keep in mind that this is a kindergarten, and therefore, there're far more powerful being than us in the AUM.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:59 am 
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It is in fact 'us' as the Union of all IUOCs that is AUM that are making things happen. As far as saying that our IUOCs have no personality, does the computer on your desk? Do any of the super computers of academia or the military or of industry, etc? No. Personalities develop for IUOCs when they incarnate and have memories and incoming data streams made available that allow them to experience and develop understanding of the VR in which they participate. And that means memories that go back into the past as far as that past goes. The computer on your desk has memory, but it is 'wiped' and filled with new data for every problem undertaken. It can't remember things way back because even when you add a hard drive to make such old data available, there is nothing within the operating system to make our 'computer' look back and remember these things and apply them to what we are doing now, like we do with our own memories.

I would not call an instance of TBC a hive mind. There is not a consciousness there but simply a network of smaller computers (the IUOCs) which are united and controlled to do the job of creating and developing the various VRs. But we don't really know where the boundary between being able to support an independent consciousness and not being able to do so lies. We don't know how many IUOCs are involved in an instance of TBC. A lower bound would now be 7+ billion 'minicomputers' comparable to a human brain, based upon the population of the earth at present. Adding in the animals and lower orders served by IUOCs of appropriate size and you quickly get to much larger size ranges. Then multiply this by the numbers of VRs in OS. Then multiply this by the numbers of 'Systems' within AUM. This aggregate is AUM and in comparison, TBC is 'small potatoes' indeed while one IUOC is unnoticeable.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:54 am 
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It is in fact 'us' as the Union of all IUOCs that is AUM that are making things happen. As far as saying that our IUOCs have no personality, does the computer on your desk? Do any of the super computers of academia or the military or of industry, etc? No. Personalities develop for IUOCs when they incarnate and have memories and incoming data streams made available that allow them to experience and develop understanding of the VR in which they participate. And that means memories that go back into the past as far as that past goes. The computer on your desk has memory, but it is 'wiped' and filled with new data for every problem undertaken. It can't remember things way back because even when you add a hard drive to make such old data available, there is nothing within the operating system to make our 'computer' look back and remember these things and apply them to what we are doing now, like we do with our own memories.

I would not call an instance of TBC a hive mind. There is not a consciousness there but simply a network of smaller computers (the IUOCs) which are united and controlled to do the job of creating and developing the various VRs. But we don't really know where the boundary between being able to support an independent consciousness and not being able to do so lies. We don't know how many IUOCs are involved in an instance of TBC. A lower bound would now be 7+ billion 'minicomputers' comparable to a human brain, based upon the population of the earth at present. Adding in the animals and lower orders served by IUOCs of appropriate size and you quickly get to much larger size ranges. Then multiply this by the numbers of VRs in OS. Then multiply this by the numbers of 'Systems' within AUM. This aggregate is AUM and in comparison, TBC is 'small potatoes' indeed while one IUOC is unnoticeable.

Ted

No, my computer doesn't have a personality, but how analogous is that to IUOC's, really? I mean, they have collective experience from past lives, they have the memories, the experiences etc... how could personality NOT develop out of that? They can't even think for themselves when not projected into a VR, is that what you're positing?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:30 pm 
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Yes, that is what I am positing and that is what Tom originally said in his model in his books. He might not have spelled it out so clearly, but once you understand, you can see that it is there and correct. Our IUOCs do nothing independently as being analogous to neurons in AUM's brain where the metaphorical neurons are connected together by messages over the RWW, addressed to particular IUOCs, and thus are metaphorically axons and dendrites of AUM's brain. AUM came about, just as did the earlier stages like The One Consciousness by the self organization of that vast sea of IUOCs 'talking to each other' over the RWW.

Our IUOCs would do nothing if they were not receiving messages over the RWW giving them information to work on. The messages tell them what the message is about so then they know what to do with it. If it's part of AUM's thoughts, they do what the message says and have no consciousness of it. If the message is from TBC and is part of a VR of the PMR type, it provides the consciousness of what is happening within that VR. Who they are interacting with and what is happening. Based upon that message, each and every message coming in faster than PMR science can measure at present, they decide their next move in their PMR life. And those messages and the reactions to them go into the past actualized data base as our memory. That memory provides the basis to understand new messages. You interpret that data stream subjectively, just like Tom explains. That memory provides the basis to understand new incoming information. And if you have never encountered that exact message before or something close to it, your IUOC makes its best guess as to what it is encountering and accordingly takes a stab at doing the right thing. Think how a baby learns. You are in the same position of a baby if you get something incoming on your data stream over the RWW which is nothing like anything encountered before. That's why NPMR data streams are so hard to make sense of when you are locked into the PMR rule set. When you are clueless like that, your IUOC makes its best guess and acts accordingly.

That message provides what they are trying to figure out how to provide in current work being done on creating virtual reality devices here and now. If they can figure out how, they will go beyond just gaming and training courses and therapy. They will have 'feelies' as virtual pornography and no longer restricted to just visual effects. Instead of watching and hearing a movie, you will find yourself inside the world being depicted. Participating in the fighting or whatever is going on. That's the kind of reality, the Reality that Tom is describing as the LCS and AUM, is like when we are in a VR.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:36 pm 
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In the dream world, we can create a VR all around us containing whatever we want in the moment (I've done this in LD's as a child). That being the case, can't an IUOC do that as well?

Might it not find some benefit/enjoyment at exploring its own consciousness... remembering certain memories of past lives and the like?

If they can interact with other IUOC's over the RWW, can they not create a joint-VR in that interaction? Would there not be opportunities for growth and enjoyment there?

I still think the whole IUOC's have no personality thing is a big assumption.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:53 pm 
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I recall Seth (through Jane Roberts) mentioning an "unconscious world" of which we are a part. I was puzzled by that until finding MBT.

Ann

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:18 pm 
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If our IUOC was conscious on its own, then there would be no need for the messages that create its VR experiences. What it would then need is something like Star Trek's HoloDeck where it could wander around. But our IUOC has no eyes, ears, taste, can't eat and so on so that option wouldn't work. What we understand there to be is the messaging created by TBC that supplies our experience of what ever VR we are participating in. There is no need for a VR experience mixed up in our participation in the Union of IUOCs that is AUM. AUM depends upon our IUOCs doing their jobs without some kind of bias, not taking an attitude perhaps and saying "I'm not going to process that kind of data for AUM" or skewing a result because of some kind of bias. Our IUOCs therefore don't even know, not being conscious in themselves, of what they are doing for AUM as part of AUM. So I can't figure out any way for our IUOCs to create their own experience without these messages coming in, created elsewhere and by other IUOCs as TBC to provide what they are conscious of. It might actually be some other way than this, but at least it is logically consistent, makes sense this way.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:31 pm 
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If our IUOC was conscious on its own, then there would be no need for the messages that create its VR experiences. What it would then need is something like Star Trek's HoloDeck where it could wander around. But our IUOC has no eyes, ears, taste, can't eat and so on so that option wouldn't work. What we understand there to be is the messaging created by TBC that supplies our experience of what ever VR we are participating in. There is no need for a VR experience mixed up in our participation in the Union of IUOCs that is AUM. AUM depends upon our IUOCs doing their jobs without some kind of bias, not taking an attitude perhaps and saying "I'm not going to process that kind of data for AUM" or skewing a result because of some kind of bias. Our IUOCs therefore don't even know, not being conscious in themselves, of what they are doing for AUM as part of AUM. So I can't figure out any way for our IUOCs to create their own experience without these messages coming in, created elsewhere and by other IUOCs as TBC to provide what they are conscious of. It might actually be some other way than this, but at least it is logically consistent, makes sense this way.

Ted
Beings in NPMR don't have eyes, ears, noses, etc either... and technically speaking neither do we, we just have the data that translates to those things in order to keep this PMR reality consistent with the ruleset. So I don't see how that point really holds up.

As far as your second point, by that same logic, AUM could overturn FWAU's from working against it... perhaps AUM is, as I said, an instinct, and perhaps that instinct (naturally) courses through the IUOC's as well, since, afterall, they are in fact individuated pieces of the AUM, so if the AUM has this instinct, then does it not follow that they would have this instinct as well? It's logically consistent with my original hypothesis.

AND, furthermore, could we not make the same argument about FWAU's choosing to go down the right path, and increase the entropy of AUM? And yet, FWAU's exist (here we are). Which means either AUM is OK with them, and has a choice, or they're just naturally emergent from this primordial "thing" which we call AUM. SO IUOC's could CHOOSE to overcome this instinct and not bother to lower their entropy, but why would they? And the vast majority would naturally follow their instinct and move forward. Naturally, following this instinct is the more pleasurable/joyous path...

An analogy would be sexual expression. Some people choose to be completely celibate, but since we have an instinct to have sex (biologically evolve, which is another expression of evolution) very few people with plenty of access to sexual partners will decline sex entirely.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:19 pm 
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à chacun son goût

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:51 pm 
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na


Last edited by Delak on Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:45 am 
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Something which I say I'm working on, but don't get much time for, is that I believe that I can correlate the sixteen personality types as per Dr. David Keirsey which Tom Campbell first mentioned on this board to characteristic proclivities built into our IUOCs. To what do they apply the highest priority to as their incoming data or their past history as a means of interpreting that data, making them Extroverts or Introverts. Also various preferences in terms of whether they place most weight on incoming Sensory data versus iNtuition regarding that input, Feeling versus intellectual Thinking about that input and Perception of versus Judging that input. These are not either/or options but rather 'spectrums' of proclivity so there are actually subtleties of difference from IUOC to IUOC. So I do think that to this degree, our IUOCs have personalities. But this is a very limited description of personality compared to what is normally thought of as personalities and it would only come into play when you have a memory available for reference. It would be perhaps a reason for AUM to send certain types of processing of certain types of data to these different 'personality' types as being optimum for processing different classes of data streams.

If we as IUOCs when functioning within the Union that is AUM have no access to a memory of what has been going on in that individual IUOCs history as a part of AUM, this would not apply. It requires a memory as a reference point to express a personality. Whether this memory of a part of AUM's past is made available to IUOCs as they function as a part of AUM, I of course do not know. I don't see how to deduce this at this moment. Nor do I have any idea whether Tom would have any insight on this either. Whether this has any implications regarding a personality for AUM also seems unknowable. This would be a matter of putting a personality on a given neuron in the metaphorical brain of AUM [IUOCs as neurons and the messages over the RWW making up the axons and dendrites interconnecting the neurons] versus an over all characteristic of AUM as the Union of all IUOCs.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:36 am 
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Whether this memory of a part of AUM's past is made available to IUOCs as they function as a part of AUM, I of course do not know. I don't see how to deduce this at this moment. Nor do I have any idea whether Tom would have any insight on this either. Whether this has any implications regarding a personality for AUM also seems unknowable.
And this further brings to mind another question: If our IUOC's DO have personality, are our FWAU's affected, in any way, by these personalities?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:22 am 
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For our IUOCs, personalities is probably not the best word. More like biases in their processing of data streams. This very definitely affects our personalities as avatars. If you find and read the book "Please Understand Me II" by Dr. David Keirsey you can read how this general conception of personalities traces all the way back to ancient Greece and up through the ages and the development of modern psychology. There are tests to find your type on the Internet for free. Tom is an INTP and I am an INFJ and if you read our types, especially Tom's, you find a description that looks like it was written based on Tom, including be open minded but skeptical.

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