Return Home
It is currently Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:16 am

All times are UTC-06:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:00 am
Posts: 1285
I just answered a question that I thought many of you would want to see because it is such a common question.

Question:
In your model, we are actually in a learning simulator that is being facilitated by our "larger, overarching" consciousness in order to help our "small, individuated" consciousness unit. It does this by guiding us towards love either by rewarding us when we do things that bring us towards love, and by "zapping" us when we act in selfish ways that bring us away from love.

If this is true, then the larger consciousness system already knows what we need to do in order to become "enlightened" if you will. The larger consciousness system is trying to help us evolve, because it understands the advantages of being love or "organized" rather than being fearful or "unorganized." If our true nature at the core of our being is the larger consciousness system, which, by your model, is already enlightened, then why are we becoming enlightened again?

In other words, if we are actually one with the larger consciousness, and it already knows the path that we should take to evolve, then we, by extension, are already evolved (because we are it, and it is us). So why are we evolving again?

Is it because we have nothing else to do? Why, in your opinion, are we finding it necessary to evolve multiple times?

-------------------------------------------------

Answer:
Let me put your question in a different but equivalent form. Why doesn’t the LCS simply delete all of the IUOCs? Why did it create those inferior things in the first place?

OK, let’s say that the LCS executive part deletes all of its IUOCs because none of them are as grown up as it is. Now what does it do? What is its purpose? What can it do to actualize its massive potential? How does it grow itself, evolve itself into something bigger and better, more complex, and lower entropy? What is its evolutionary challenge? It must be something very difficult but also very significant (easy tasks are never very significant)?

I am sure the answer to all these questions is not to spend its day congratulating itself on how nearly perfect (low entropy) it is. What is a low entropy LCS to do? Without a massive challenge to actualize its massive potential, it would be massively bored (wasting time, unemployed, and probably devolving).

It could, if it had nearly infinite bits, just duplicate itself so there were lots of executive functions all nearly perfect – they could sit around and congratulate each other on their perfection. Or try to find tiny nits of imperfection in each other….but that doesn’t sound like it would answer the above questions, does it? What is a large number of nearly perfect LCSs to do? The many LCSs have the same problem as the one LCS. So, just duplicating its highly evolved self isn’t the answer – that’s a dead end.

Back in the day when the proto-LCS was a fearful whippersnapper: Those were challenging times, full of excitement, change, and growth…two steps forward and one step back… totally consumed and engaged in the struggle to lower entropy. That was significant! There was some serious entropy reduction going on. You have to grow up yourself, no one can do it for you.

Hmmm, what if the LCS created a large number of IUOCs who could grow up individually but also interactively together – now that would be a humongous challenge! A challenge that would demand all of the system’s capacity and all of its ingenuity and wisdom – which means that the system would have a whole set of different dimensions (teacher, organizer, planner, VR designer, computer engineer, sociologist, coach, executive management, etc.) to evolve into! And whenever an IUOC lowered its entropy, the system would also have its entropy lowered. Damn good idea!... the system isn’t dead ended in stale, stultifying perfection of oneness, it’s just taken its entropy reduction evolution to the next level of organization. Phew! Just in time.

As long as new IUOCs are input into the system, this system will change itself forever because a process-fractal running on huge numbers of IUOCs interacting with free will always produce totally new challenges. With that many IUOC with free will interacting (with that much uncertainty in the mix), no structure, configuration, or outcome will ever repeat itself. Optimizing this newly complex system to reduce entropy more efficiently will be a constant challenge requiring much trial and error research into what works and what doesn’t.

The struggle between positive and negative evolution (good and evil) begins among the IUOCs and the LCS gets a new lease on life as it enters the next phase of its evolution.

Tom


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:38 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 460
Great stuff, Tom! A MMPG to avoid boredom.

Presumably negative evolution includes the idea of removal of freedom of choice from others, so that one keeps their freedom for oneself (slavery). Those IUOCs that become too successful at this (megalomaniac dictators) then have to be fought and deleted. Do those deleted become the algorithmic (deterministic, choiceless) stuff for rulesets in VRs; if not, I can't quite see what deletion means: can something be made into nothing? -if so, then self-annihilation would seem to be another option for an LCS that has reached a high point of evolution and does not wish to participate in the MMPG.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:35 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
vzam wrote:Great stuff, Tom! A MMPG to avoid boredom.

Presumably negative evolution includes the idea of removal of freedom of choice from others, so that one keeps their freedom for oneself (slavery). Those IUOCs that become too successful at this (megalomaniac dictators) then have to be fought and deleted. Do those deleted become the algorithmic (deterministic, choiceless) stuff for rulesets in VRs; if not, I can't quite see what deletion means: can something be made into nothing? -if so, then self-annihilation would seem to be another option for an LCS that has reached a high point of evolution and does not wish to participate in the MMPG.
I don't think they all necessarily have to be deleted. They just need to figure out that there limiting themselves through their negativity. They get lots of chances. Tom has said that it is extremely rare that an IUOC ever gets deleted.

Deleting would mean the information that defines that IUOC is returned to random bits and spread out across the whole system. They aren't turned into nothing, they are converted to random bits.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:49 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
VB,

Let me suggest to you that rather than being "spread out over the whole system", they are simply replaced with the data that represents the beginning of a new IUOC occupying the place on the RWW that the now deleted one previously occupied. There is no net loss of an IUOC but just a replacement with a new one starting up the ladder.

Self annihilation as vzam suggested is not an option for an IUOC as they do not have the ability to implement that act. But you can choose as an IUOC to not participate in the VR of PMR or even in NPMR is probably possible as long as you choose to ignore the messages over the RWW that place you into NPMR. You can't ignore the messages over the RWW entirely as it requires a past history in NPMR to create an avatar to even remember that you want to ignore NPMR in the future. This would leave you only participating as a part of AUM of which you are not even aware that I can see any sign of.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:55 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
Ted Vollers wrote:VB,

Let me suggest to you that rather than being "spread out over the whole system", they are simply replaced with the data that represents the beginning of a new IUOC occupying the place on the RWW that the now deleted one previously occupied. There is no net loss of an IUOC but just a replacement with a new one starting up the ladder.

Self annihilation as vzam suggested is not an option for an IUOC as they do not have the ability to implement that act. But you can choose as an IUOC to not participate in the VR of PMR or even in NPMR is probably possible as long as you choose to ignore the messages over the RWW that place you into NPMR. You can't ignore the messages over the RWW entirely as it requires a past history in NPMR to create an avatar to even remember that you want to ignore NPMR in the future. This would leave you only participating as a part of AUM of which you are not even aware that I can see any sign of.

Ted
Yep that would work too.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:57 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 460
Ted wrote:Let me suggest to you that rather than being "spread out over the whole system", they are simply replaced with the data that represents the beginning of a new IUOC occupying the place on the RWW that the now deleted one previously occupied. There is no net loss of an IUOC but just a replacement with a new one starting up the ladder.
But the deleted LCS or IUOC has gone where, exactly? How is consciousness deconstructed? I should have expected its routines to be used as algorithms in VRs (perhaps like those bacteria that were initially computed in the early Earth environment).


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:20 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
If you load your browser program into your computer and then delete it after use in order to load an extensive game program and then delete that in order to load a large spreadsheet program, then where are these deleted programs? Your IUOC is very much like a program that is stored and operates from somewhere specific in the LCS and connected to the RWW. The programs we are deleting from active memory on your computer are still available from your hard drive or perhaps from a CDrom which is inactive storage. In the LCS there is only active storage, where the program operates from so when the program is deleted, it is totally gone with no copy in inactive storage as there is no inactive storage like a computer hard drive or a CDRom on which you originally bought the program.

There may be similar algorithms removed with a deleted IUOC but they are not stored and reused somewhere. Everything must fit exactly right within an IUOC as there are no barriers as such. Without barriers and things not fitting right, data over writes data and you just have garbage left. What familiarity do you have with Cellular Automatons as that is our best model and general understanding of the nature of IUOCs and the LCS in total. So a deleted IUOC is just gone. And we are not talking about a deleted LCS. Delete the LCS and you have nothing left but the original Void again.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:13 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 460
Ted wrote:In the LCS there is only active storage, where the program operates from so when the program is deleted, it is totally gone with no copy in inactive storage as there is no inactive storage like a computer hard drive or a CDRom on which you originally bought the program.
Ted wrote:What familiarity do you have with Cellular Automatons as that is our best model and general understanding of the nature of IUOCs and the LCS in total. So a deleted IUOC is just gone. And we are not talking about a deleted LCS. Delete the LCS and you have nothing left but the original Void again.
I think I get it: although consciousness is primary, it does not need to be active (or kinetic) - it can be potential, which is what the Void is: consciousness unrealized. Deleted IUOCs return to a state of potential. Thank you.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:33 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:00 am
Posts: 1285
Ted and Vzam are both correct, but there is still one important side issue. There is a history database that tracks everything that could happen and the probability that it might happen. This history database contains models of all the players and descriptions of all the environments and situations. The probability model of the player is very much like the actual player (perhaps a copy) except there is no free will since this copy is being used in a database not in an experiential VR). The data base probably deletes old data if and when it is no longer useful -- probably when there are no players and no artifacts in the environment that could relate to the old data. Theoretically, even if Joe from PMR gets deleted, in the short run (perhaps a century or two if Joe was a nondescript character of no historical importance whose family tree dies out -- as far as it can be traced -- due to a failure to reproduce) Joe could possibly be more or less reconstituted from the database model of Joe and reintroduced into a VR if doing that was determined to be worth the trouble.

With that said, let me repeat: I have never known of a IUOC playing in a PMR to be deleted. I have witnessed entities inhabiting only NPMR to have been "disappeared" from a specific reality frame for repeated offenses after multiple warnings. It is fair to say they were deleted from the NPMR reality frame that they and I had shared only moments before. On inquiry, I was told only that they were no longer a member of that reality frame and that they would not be returning to that frame any time soon. I din't know their fate beyond that. Perhaps they were simply transferred to a VR serving as rehab center for bad apples. Perhaps they were deleted from the set of IUOCs that inhabit the LCS. More likely the former than the latter. There is little to no incentive to permanently delete any IUOC -- that is counter to the point and purpose of the game -- paramount to the LCS cheating (going outside of game purpose and protocols) in order to cover up an irredeemable failure. By definition, there should be no irredeemable failures to evolve -- every IUOC has the potential to evolve itself. Deletion from the LCS is, no doubt, a theoretical possibility, but one that is extremely unlikely.

Tom


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:30 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
twcjr wrote:Ted and Vzam are both correct, but there is still one important side issue. There is a history database that tracks everything that could happen and the probability that it might happen. This history database contains models of all the players and descriptions of all the environments and situations. The probability model of the player is very much like the actual player (perhaps a copy) except there is no free will since this copy is being used in a database not in an experiential VR). The data base probably deletes old data if and when it is no longer useful -- probably when there are no players and no artifacts in the environment that could relate to the old data. Theoretically, even if Joe from PMR gets deleted, in the short run (perhaps a century or two if Joe was a nondescript character of no historical importance whose family tree dies out -- as far as it can be traced -- due to a failure to reproduce) Joe could possibly be more or less reconstituted from the database model of Joe and reintroduced into a VR if doing that was determined to be worth the trouble.

With that said, let me repeat: I have never known of a IUOC playing in a PMR to be deleted. I have witnessed entities inhabiting only NPMR to have been "disappeared" from a specific reality frame for repeated offenses after multiple warnings. It is fair to say they were deleted from the NPMR reality frame that they and I had shared only moments before. On inquiry, I was told only that they were no longer a member of that reality frame and that they would not be returning to that frame any time soon. I din't know their fate beyond that. Perhaps they were simply transferred to a VR serving as rehab center for bad apples. Perhaps they were deleted from the set of IUOCs that inhabit the LCS. More likely the former than the latter. There is little to no incentive to permanently delete any IUOC -- that is counter to the point and purpose of the game -- paramount to the LSC cheating (going outside of game purpose and protocols) in order to cover up an irredeemable failure. By definition, there should be no irredeemable failures to evolve -- every IUOC has the potential to evolve itself. Deletion from the LCS is, no doubt, a theoretical possibility, but one that is extremely unlikely.

Tom
Tom, would you say its possible that a bad IUOC like the one you saw disappear could be rehabilitated by removing or reorganizing certain parts of the data that make up that IUOC which could be causing it to function negatively, while leaving the rest of the data alone? Do you think this would be a likely part of a "rehab program"?


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:30 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:00 am
Posts: 1285
Possibly, but not as likely as just working with what you have. The system tries to not to interfere with the results of free will choices -- they are what they are ....and now the system has to work with their owner to help that entity make better choices. If the system simply changed what it didn't like, or had trouble with, free will and its consequences as the fundamental foundation of the game is undone. Might the system cheat around the edges, perhaps, but not if it had any other choice. It should always have another choice. The system is not in a hurry or afraid of difficult tasks -- unlike humans, it doesn't get impatient, upset, or angry when things are not as it would wish.


Top
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:07 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 1650
Thanks Tom, that makes sense. Patience, anger, frustration and fear are things I struggle with, as I'm sure we all do, on almost a daily basis. You are a very good example to us all. I see the calmness in your interactions with others; and I want that serenity for myself as well as for those that I interact with, and humanity in general. Thanks again for all your help! :)


Top
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:18 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 460
Yes, thank you Tom. Thanks also to VirtualBrain and Ted for your ideas.

A couple more points arising from Tom's post:

1. If (near-)perfection is stale and stultifying, why would we wish to evolve towards it?

2. Maybe the excitement of egoistic interactions is what the LCS really craves?

Or maybe it's this: If you have perfection, you want excitement; if you have too much excitement, you want the peace of perfection. It's a cycle driven by desire for what we don't have.

Sorry about this. I can never resist playing devil's advocate- it's the ego in me.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:36 pm 
Offline
Normal User
Normal User

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:23 am
Posts: 34
Location: Austria
Love your questions vzam!

It's been on my mind lately how we humans always strive to avoid boredom. And if we are developeing we just seek out lower entropy objectives.
But logically there seems no solution to the "why". Which is scary...


Top
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:15 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
The problem with perfection as it has been discussed here before is that it is static and has been limited to the concept of finding a 'perfect' IUOC and cloning it as all other IUOCs. This is a very stagnant approach. It is rather understood that things should develop naturally by the ordinary process of evolution which provides many more options as compared to simple cloning. The dynamic process of evolution is more of value as it is not static and can adapt to changing circumstances.

Nor has it ever been advocated that it is desirable to evolve towards some state of near perfection. The process of evolution is inherently dynamic, therefore adapting to new circumstances automatically and not at all static. The goal of the evolution of consciousness is to be prepared to deal effectively with what ever comes up to be dealt with, not a state of perfection or of near perfection.

Ted


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited