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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:16 am 
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Linda,

I think what you are saying is clear to me. The issue is that I think my reading of MBT conflicts with what you are saying. Perhaps we might be discussing concepts at the edge of what MBT has described. Just a few posts above Ted noted, “Beyond this I think that it gets beyond what we know or reasonably can know at this time…”

But to forge ahead, you just said:
Posters here have often referred to an avatar as a meat sack. Does that make things more clear as to what I am saying. Avatar is some kind of "physical form." Your guide does not have to have any physical form to communicate with you.
I hope I am not taking your comment out of context but I would say that your notion that an avatar is some kind of “physical” form is at odds with what I understand MBT has explained. My reading of MBT includes an understanding of NPMR VR avatars which are by definition not physical. Granted, they might seem to be physical (albeit with very much looser rule sets than our own) to the players involved in an NPMR VR but MBT specifically defines those avatars as non-physical and calls them as such.

A guide is a person, a personality, a self, a consciousness, is he not? If he is, my reading of MBT is that he is the result of the processing power of an IUOC which is being fed a data stream(s) necessary to experience a VR (and I also conclude necessary to experience one’s self as an avatar.) You have essentially agreed when you have previously said:
The IOUC is acting as consciousness when it can influence information with free will. And that has to be done in a VR of some kind.
What I have done is to conclude that the way an IUOC experiences a VR is via an associated avatar. I understand you to be saying that an avatar is unnecessary. To repeat, I think we are at the edge of what MBT is saying and there is probably room for a variety of views on this until more evidence is accumulated.

To push on this a bit more, you also say:
But your guide has probably had thousands of avatars. He/she probably does not identify with any of them.
Guides don’t have avatars; they have one avatar. Maybe IUOCs have avatars but guides have but one. A guide is an experience of self consciousness requiring a VR, and I would add that this also logically requires an avatar so as to experience not only the VR but to also experience one’s self.

I do not think that my reasoning on this conflicts in any way with Tom’s MBT. In fact, I am striving to understand MBT and I am looking for confirmation that my understanding is not in error. The discussion so far leads me to believe that I have not erred. I’m concluding that neither your view on this subtle issue nor mine are at odds with MBT as far as it goes.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:07 am 
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You are getting hung up on the concept of physical, instead of thinking digital. In the computer game analogy, does the avatar, (character) you play have a "physical" form? Yes, of course. Otherwise their wouldn't be any other way to play the game. That is why it is called an avatar.

Do you think that all consciousnesses that visit our PMR have a physical form? No, they don't. And do you think that you need to manifest a physical form to visit another PMR? You can manifest a body if you want, but you don't have to. And if you don't, then is it not just your information inserted into that data stream? And that information is your personality in this PMR. It is your ego, fears, beliefs, expectations, and QoC. It is not that you are so high, and weigh so much, and have such and such color hair.

A guide that has incarnated will have had thousands of avatars and yet may not identify with any of them. Tom says that the Big Cheese identifies as male to him. But he gives no other physical characteristics. Not because he is keeping them secret, there probably aren't any. The Big Cheese may have many personality characteristics, but wisdom isn't physical and not part of an avatar.

If your guide appears to you in a physical form it is either because you are giving it that form, or the guide thinks you will accept the information better that way. But a physical form, avatar, isn't necessary for an exchange of information.


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Linda,

I do not think I am hung up on the concept of “physical.” Perhaps we are talking past each other, talking about different things all the while thinking that we are talking about the same things, perhaps not. At any rate, I am using the word physical in the same sense that MBT uses the word. That is to say, in MBT we have PMR and NPMR. As far as I can tell, the only differences between the 2 are the strictness or looseness of the rule sets and the rate of cycling of the delta-ts of the respective VRs. Maybe I am getting hung up on the word “avatar.”

You say:
does the avatar, (character) you play have a "physical" form? Yes, of course. Otherwise their wouldn't be any other way to play the game. That is why it is called an avatar.
I think I agree with this statement completely. I’d articulate it just a bit differently but agree with the conclusion. An avatar is required to “play the game.” (I’d say, in this case, that the avatar does not HAVE a form but IS a form. It is THE form that is required to play the game.)

You continue by asking:
And if you don't [manifest a body], then is it not just your information inserted into that data stream?
We agree that there exists nothing other than information, so no argument there, but I don’t see the relevance to the question at hand.

You also asked:
Do you think that all consciousnesses that visit our PMR have a physical form? No, they don't. And do you think that you need to manifest a physical form to visit another PMR?
I answer that I have not been talking about “physical forms.” I have explicitly indicated that I am talking about avatars which I define as something different from a physical form. While I agree that you do not have to have a physical form to visit any given PMR VR, I have indicated that you ARE an avatar, perhaps in the case of a guide, a non-physical avatar. Further, that if you visit a VR other than your own, you do so with the information being filtered through your experience as THAT avatar. Am I getting this across to you? I ask because your replies to my posts don’t seem to address these points. Hence I am concluding that we are talking past each other. We are talking about different things.

Finally you say:
A guide that has incarnated will have had thousands of avatars
Here we are using the language differently. I say that a guide IS an avatar (when combined with a VR being processed by an IUOC.) As such a guide can’t have had thousands of avatars. An avatar is not something that you have; it is something that you are. This has nothing to do with the physical or the non-physical; it holds true in both (all) cases.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:16 pm 
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TOM:
You are an IUOC playing a virtual avatar (your body) in a virtual reality game (your universe). An IUOC may send or receive data as a way of evolving its content. Information is personal to the IUOC and cannot be shared directly, although descriptions of its content, subjectively colored by the IUOC’s quality and content, can be approximately coded into data and shared through a common language created (evolved) by cooperating IUOCs.

The “you” that the being and intellectual levels reflect and represent is the “you” as Consciousness (as an IUOC) not the “you” as the virtual body of your avatar. The right and left hemispheres of your virtual (“physical”) brain simply represent a logical requirement of the rule-set as it has constrained evolution within our Virtual reality (VR). Virtual brain structure accommodates the potential particularities of your avatar and the quality of your Consciousness. . The constraints of the VR define what data can and cannot be in the data-stream sent to each IUOC player describing VR (“game”) content and interactions. The virtual reality that we describe as “physical” exists only in the awareness (mind) of the IUOC players and the LCS.

Our VR” and sometimes “the VR” refers to the virtual reality that we call our physical universe (physical matter reality -- PMR) – i.e., the VR in which our “physical” body is a virtual character or game piece called an avatar.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8713&p=78101&hilit=avatar#p78101

How Consciousness Connects to the Avatar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX6omqNajtw


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:11 pm 
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You are an IUOC playing a virtual avatar (your body) in a virtual reality game (your universe).
Ah yes. This is what I have been saying. As per Tom it takes 3 things for there to be a “you.” 1) An IUOC, 2) an avatar, and 3) a VR. This technicality is further justified as we probe the nature of the IUOC and consciousness. We agree that an IUOC, in the absence of a VR, cannot be conscious, otherwise it thoughts would interrupt those of AUM. Therefore anything, taken by itself that cannot be conscious cannot, taken by itself, be “you.” Tom did not say that you are your IUOC.

At the same time, it’s easy for the sake of simplicity and communications shorthand to talk AS IF you are your IUOC. Perhaps this is an artifact of Tom trying to “simplify” things for ease of understanding. I think this unfortunately introduces some confusion.

For example, in the 1st sentence of the second paragraph above, Tom refers to” …(Consciousness) as an IOUC…” And in the last line of the same paragraph he refers to “…the IUOC players…” At the same time, in many discussions on this Forum it has been explained that IUOCs are not conscious by themselves. I believe that when pressed, Tom agrees with this interpretation. I believe that Ted mentioned that he and Tom have had discussions about this very confusion and how best to rectify it. In the meantime, we are left with an apparent ambiguity.

I agree with you that we are NOT( just) our physical bodies, nor are guides just their non-physical bodies. Nor are either they or we just our avatars to use another word. You (and I) agree that an IUOC is not conscious in the absence of a data stream that generates a VR. Therefore we must agree that an IUOC, in this absence, is not conscious and therefore it is NOT you because you ARE conscious.

I would go on to agree that our QoC is determined by the characteristics of the IUOC that is our base (to use Ted’s nomenclature.) If it is our base, that implies that we stand on it (metaphorically) but it also implies that we are more than just our base, more than just our IUOC.

Are we making progress here?

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:49 pm 
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I have emailed Tom for some clarification. So let's see if he has time to respond.

I do know he has talked about visiting other PMRs without manifesting a body, (avatar.)


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:16 pm 
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Both of you are correct from your own perspective and not entirely right from the other's perspective -- yes, you are talking past each other. This happens when you push the logical consequences of vaguely defined metaphors beyond the point where it makes any fundamental difference. Sometimes this is called overthinking the issue -- digging deeper into things than the resolution of those things can support. Metaphors are meant to be assessed and interpreted at the level where they are introduced. Really tight in-depth relational metaphors can be disassembled into smaller and smaller logical pieces but eventually the logic will break down into semantic issues of just how we each interpret the words we and others use -- i.e., splitting language hairs in the service of logical deduction.

The terms LCS, IUOC, FWAU are all functional metaphors. LCS is a metaphor for the entire system including all the IUOC. Sometimes the term LCS is used to refer to just the executive management of the entire system -- that duel use can be a little confusing. Speaking of confusing, sometimes I have heard the LCS also called an IUOC because it is clearly individuated and a consciousness -- however it is not in the same category (with the same limitations) as almost all of the "created later" IUOC. [For some clarity, refer to a post I made yesterday in the "Cosmology" thread.]

IUOC and FWAU describe specific sub-functions of the LCS.

The IUOC is a subset of the LCS, its function is to accumulate and integrate experience, it assesses the whole (all experience packets) and decides how to invest in the next experience packet. It exists in a VR that allows communication with the LCS and with other IUOCs as necessary. Mostly it works alone but sometimes interacts with others to optimize its management and planning of how to utilize its collective resources to best evolutionary advantage.

The FWAU is a subset of the IUOC, its function is to become immersed in the experience of a PMR virtual avatar. It represents only the quality of the IUOC at the time it became immersed. It expresses the consciousness (personality, memory, intellectual level, being level, and processing) of the virtual avatar within the PMR VR entropy reduction trainer. The FWAUs experience is uploaded in real time to the IUOC. The IUOC does not directly interfere with the FWAUs free will choice.

The IUOC is part of the LCS. The FWAU is part of the LCS. Both are functional metaphors that allow us to talk about the different functions of the LCS. Think of the LCS as playing all parts, performing all functions. Don't take the individual independent existence of either the IUOC or the FWAU too seriously -- or dig too deeply into the logic of their independent existence.

When the avatar dies, the FWAU merges during the transition back into its parent IUOC (the partition is deleted). The IUOC eventually decides on another experience packet and partitions off another FWAU representing the current quality of the IUOC (which has changed due to the last experience packet.)

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:09 pm 
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Have we figured out who we are yet? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:38 pm 
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Is there consciousness without an avatar? Can you participate in a VR without an avatar? I think that is a question not answered.


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:02 am 
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Thanks to Linda for asking Tom to respond and thanks so much to Tom for doing so. I have read and re-read Tom’s post above and his recent post to the Cosmology discussion group, and offer these reflections:

To begin with is the notion that in pressing metaphors to their limits we get into arguments of semantics, “i.e. splitting language hairs in the service of logical deduction.” At some point things remain uncertain and I must face the challenge of living gracefully with that uncertainly.

The next big picture reflection I got was that I should not take “the individual independent existence of either the IUOC or the FWAU too seriously.” This gets at the mystery that We are all One in the LCS. There is this mysterious duality in reality that the “other” and “our self” appear separate but are not separate. Separateness is an illusion. I must admit that I cannot imagine that I will EVER understand this because our semantics defines this as illogical. While I can conceive of this reality of unity, I cannot imagine it as it is outside my PMR experience. The best I can do is to contemplate this reality so as to appreciate a little bit more and more its truth and beauty. And in doing so be motivated to evolve toward Love. But then again the mystery is even more challenging because (logically) if there is no separateness then there is no Other (to love) for we are all One.

Further is the notion that “The terms LCS, IUOC, FWAU are all functional metaphors.” The key insight for me here is captured by the word functional. These things are “functions” of reality. Thinking this way is challenging also. The implication is that I am a function. I think I can understand this but it too is a bit disquieting. This is because typically a function is the activity of some “thing” not an activity of itSELF. Therefore the IUOC or FWAU is not really a self but a function. Well maybe somehow they are both? More mystery.

Finally there is the matter that, “The FWAUs experience is uploaded in real time to the IUOC.” As I have mentioned before, if this is the case (and it makes sense to me that it is the case) then the need for a “transition” is not so apparent. For example, if an avatar dies peacefully in its sleep and there is no trauma associated with its “termination,” what’s the need for a transition? Now Ted has explained, “So there are effects after the avatar is gone to the IUOC.” I am still not quite clear on this point. Should I anticipate more mystery?

And of course Linda restates the narrow question of whether there can be an individual consciousness without an avatar.
Thanks again to all for this help,
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:00 am 
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Bfergusojr wrote:But then again the mystery is even more challenging because (logically) if there is no separateness then there is no Other (to love) for we are all One.
There is separateness and there is other. Because we can understand the means by which the separateness and other is created (LCS partitioning itself into separate pieces), doesn't make that separateness any less real than it was before. I think I talked about this at the beginning of the thread.

It's like this reality. It's a virtual reality. So we, and Tom, have said that since reality is virtual, objects aren't really 'there'. So does that mean the moon isn't real? That's a different question. It's as real as we will ever be able to call anything real. Separateness is virtual, but is it real? It's as real as separateness will ever be. There are three stages of realization here: Naive realism where you think everything is real and "as it seems", awakening to the illusory nature of reality where you think everything is not real, and finally understanding that while everything might not be as it appears, it's all as real as it can get, and we are here to serve a purpose within this reality whether it's real or not. You seem to be somewhere in stage two.
This is because typically a function is the activity of some “thing” not an activity of itSELF. Therefore the IUOC or FWAU is not really a self but a function. Well maybe somehow they are both? More mystery.
It's probably the question itself that is wrong. "who" implies personhood. Personhood is derived from living in a virtual reality and believing that you are an individual human being. MBT probably wouldn't even say there is a "who" to which you can be attributed as "being". Rather, the question you should ask is "what am I?".

For example, if an avatar dies peacefully in its sleep and there is no trauma associated with its “termination,” what’s the need for a transition?
I understand the transition phase is to help facilitate the shock of moving from PMR to NPMR, not necessarily dependent how traumatic ones death might have been. I would think going from PMR to NPMR could be pretty shocking to the FWAU who believes this reality is it and there is no "afterlife". Yeah, everyone dreams and according to MBT dream realities are pretty much as equally real as "NPMR" or even this PMR. But we don't believe it's real. We believe this reality is real, and dreams are not real...illusions created by the brain.

Not everyone needs a transition, or such an elaborate transition phase, because they may already be proficient at moving between reality frames/data streams or have a really good big picture understanding of reality. Like Tom I suppose.

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Last edited by Radagast on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:47 am 
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Thank you Radagast. That all makes a lot of sense to me..... Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:14 am 
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Sainbury wrote:Is there consciousness without an avatar? Can you participate in a VR without an avatar? I think that is a question not answered.
Tom would definitely answer you better than me but I do remember in one or two of his videos (I think Fireside chats) where he mentions that an IUOC without a VR has no consciousness and at best, possesses a dim awareness.

Also, if I remember correctly, he mentioned that you have an FWAU in NPMR as well due to the reason mentioned above (participating in a VR via FWAU is necessary because with no VR you can have no experience, thus no decisions, thus no consciousness).

Maybe Tom can give a more detailed answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:42 pm 
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Hi, Kisen,

What I understood is this:

IUOC is Consciousnes.

In the virtual reality (say NPMR) where it is "resident", it is itself, without avatar.

But it does use an avatar in another "subordinated" virtual reality,
where a part of that IUOC is having an experience packet.
Only I am not sure the word "subordinate" is good.


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 Post subject: Re: Who am I?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:21 pm 
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Anca,

I suggest that you read through and watch everything again and try to achieve a better understanding.

Ted


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